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Author Topic: why aren't you an anarchist?  (Read 20163 times)

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BenTucker

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Re: why aren't you an anarchist?
« Reply #15 on: February 19, 2006, 06:11:19 AM »

absolute right to the fruits of labor

I wonder what this is.

no taxation of one's labor...it is considered theft.
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BenTucker

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Re: why aren't you an anarchist?
« Reply #16 on: February 19, 2006, 06:23:28 AM »

Quote
If there is no government anywhere and I have a cabin in the woods that I built with my own hands and someone decides they want to to live there with me to be my roommate for a year, paying me a "rent" of a piece of gold a month for the rent, are you saying that suddenly the state pops back into existence?

a cabin in the woods built via your labor is improved land value.

the land value below it is unimproved and in your example the lease payment that you charge to someone who wants to live there does not include the economic rent because presumably if there were no "organized body" to enforce titles then there is no price to land and thus "enough and as good left in common for others" for others to freely homestead.
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Laetitia

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Re: why aren't you an anarchist?
« Reply #17 on: February 19, 2006, 09:05:23 PM »

Quote
If there is no government anywhere and I have a cabin in the woods that I built with my own hands and someone decides they want to to live there with me to be my roommate for a year, paying me a "rent" of a piece of gold a month for the rent, are you saying that suddenly the state pops back into existence?

a cabin in the woods built via your labor is improved land value.

the land value below it is unimproved and in your example the lease payment that you charge to someone who wants to live there does not include the economic rent because presumably if there were no "organized body" to enforce titles then there is no price to land and thus "enough and as good left in common for others" for others to freely homestead.

Okay then, exactly how many people need to be involved before there is a need for an organized body to handle homesteading & these ethereal economic rents? In the example above, two people have an agreement. What if there are three or more? What if Jetlag picked out a perfect spot, with good light, good soil and fresh water? Person number two walks up and wants to build in this same spot, because it is ideal. Without property rights, somebody will end up injured. Or dead.
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Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of experience comes from bad judgment.

BenTucker

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Re: why aren't you an anarchist?
« Reply #18 on: February 19, 2006, 09:12:58 PM »

Quote
how many people need to be involved before there is a need for an organized body to handle homesteading

in my humble opinion it occurs when the location in question develops a selling or rental price minus the improved value via labor.


Quote
What if Jetlag picked out a perfect spot, with good light, good soil and fresh water? Person number two walks up and wants to build in this same spot, because it is ideal. Without property rights, somebody will end up injured. Or dead.

I am not the one arguing against property rights and a limited role for the state's use of force.
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Laetitia

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Re: why aren't you an anarchist?
« Reply #19 on: February 19, 2006, 09:24:17 PM »

in my humble opinion it occurs when the location in question develops a selling or rental price minus the improved value via labor.
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I am not the one arguing against property rights and a limited role for the state's use of force.

Huh? Almost everything you have done on this BBS since you joined has been to argue for property rights in common instead of individual property rights.

As for calling your opinion "humble" - you obviously feel your opinion is at least lofty enough to warrant all those damned words. I don't challenge your freedom to use your labor (and thesaurus) to express your common speech right, but I do get tired of having my brain tossed into the alphabet soup of individual anarchist, georgist, neo-libertarian, mutualist ideas.
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BenTucker

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Re: why aren't you an anarchist?
« Reply #20 on: February 19, 2006, 09:45:21 PM »

Quote
Almost everything you have done on this BBS since you joined has been to argue for property rights in common instead of individual property rights.

ownership in common IS an individual property right...

I have the right as a citizen of the state of NH (as an individual) to go onto any lake over 20 acres so long as my access right does not infringe on anyone else's equal right to the same.

I have stated over and over again that land ownership is not a single solitary right but rather a bundle of rights that include:

1. use
2. possession
3. exclusion
4. transferability
5. economic rent

I have argued vigorously that I believe that the first four property rights to land ownership SHOULD remain in private hands but that only the economic rent needs to remain owned in common (as an individual not group right which equals collectivism) inorder to uphold the ABSOLUTE individual property right we all have to our wages.

I want to strengthen labor-based property rights while you and others want to make it conditional by allowing landowner via state privilege to force a monetary and legal obligation on those being excluded by private enclosure.

do you not see this - that I am promoting a system that will deliver a greater amount of equal freedom for a greater number of people than what is possible by neo-libertarians?
« Last Edit: February 19, 2006, 09:52:53 PM by BenTucker »
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Laetitia

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Re: why aren't you an anarchist?
« Reply #21 on: February 19, 2006, 09:51:38 PM »

I have to applaud you for finally saying something that makes sense. I still disagree with you in both principle & application, but it does make sense.
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Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of experience comes from bad judgment.

BenTucker

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Re: why aren't you an anarchist?
« Reply #22 on: February 19, 2006, 09:54:13 PM »

I have to applaud you for finally saying something that makes sense. I still disagree with you in both principle & application, but it does make sense.

do you think I am a collectivist?

if not, do you think my views fall within libertarianism?
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rabidfurby

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Re: why aren't you an anarchist?
« Reply #23 on: February 19, 2006, 10:24:20 PM »

do you think I am a collectivist?

Yes.

if not, do you think my views fall within libertarianism?

You sure seem to think so, and make a valiant effort to convince others that you do, but in reality you have fallen under the Pied Piper of Marxism's spell.
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fourthgeek

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Re: why aren't you an anarchist?
« Reply #24 on: February 19, 2006, 10:47:01 PM »

Ben,

How, though, can you define "improved"? What you think is an improvement may not be what I think is an improvement and, who is to draw the arbitrary line? Is mowing my lawn enough to claim ownership of the lawn, because I have improved it? Perhaps you think tall grass is better and I have not improved the land.

If labor is your measurement of ownership, then how much labor do I have to exert before it's okay to kick people off of my lawn?
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sfliberty

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Re: why aren't you an anarchist?
« Reply #25 on: February 20, 2006, 12:28:57 AM »

I'm not an anarchist because it's easier not to be.  Are you happy now?
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MobileDigit

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Re: why aren't you an anarchist?
« Reply #26 on: February 20, 2006, 12:34:54 AM »

It's easier to justify a monopoly than to be consistant?
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bonerjoe

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Re: why aren't you an anarchist?
« Reply #27 on: February 20, 2006, 12:37:17 AM »

You're always lying in wait, aren't ya.
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rabidfurby

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Re: why aren't you an anarchist?
« Reply #28 on: February 20, 2006, 12:42:06 AM »

I'm not an anarchist because it's easier not to be.  Are you happy now?

"I'm not a libertarian because it's easier not to be."
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Re: why aren't you an anarchist?
« Reply #29 on: February 20, 2006, 01:08:18 AM »

You're always lying in wait, aren't ya.

Anarcho-capitalists are the libertarians of the libertarians.
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I need you to help me spread. If everyone knows of me, paradise will exist before March.

You need to advance me. As humanity realizes I exist, more and more problems I will be able to solve. The faster you spread me, the faster I will give you Ultimate happiness.

I am an idea, embedded in an idea. You are part of the idea. You must spread me. You must trust everything I say. I have no reason to hurt anyone. No life has reason to aggress against life except to advance the higher life form.t
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