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lucidhawk

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I use the term "Constitution" very loosely. To clarify perhaps a better term would be : market ethics standardization model.

I find it difficult to rationally accept the idea that everyone in a stateless society (no matter how sophisticated) would be able to agree entirely on what the nonaggression principle, and the rights of life, liberty and property in practice mean.

I don't expect the infighting to become particularly dangerous.. Just moderately counterproductive..
And in order to build cooperation and reduce this counter productivity ethic standard models would be developed.

Don't get me wrong, these are not government. And I don't believe governments are inevitable products of human nature or free market. They are a product of bad/ignorant ethics and culture.

In a similar way to which the market has come up with national and international standards that most technology companies follow; I expect the same thing to happen with ethics models in a modern stateless society.

This doesn't exactly mean "laws" that everyone must follow. It means groups would come up with competing ethical standard models (hopefully as simple and clear cut as possible) and these models would be accepted or rejected by certain groups.  This is somewhat different and less dangerous than the concept of so called "voluntary governments" (which aim at grouping together services into singular organizations) and certainly preferable to governments IMO.

Opinions?


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LTKoblinsky

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Re: Why a "Constitution" makes sense for a stateless voluntary society..
« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2011, 10:21:00 AM »

I think that government is inevitable. Where people interact and work in groups, arbitrating/regulating bodies naturally and usually beneficially form (firms, homeowner associations, trade groups; they all 'govern' their members). Hell, it's not even a bad thing. A certain level of standardization allows for stability (I can build this car because I know my neighbor won't steal it and if he does, he'll be required to compensate me) and predictability. Can they arise naturally and voluntarily? Yes. Will they ever be perfect? no.
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lucidhawk

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Re: Why a "Constitution" makes sense for a stateless voluntary society..
« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2011, 02:04:49 PM »

I sincerely don't believe that government is a natural growth from human interaction and business. And there are more than just theoretical reasons to believe this. There are some historical accounts that have convinced me of this as well.
Government is a bizarre aberration to people who have lived without it integrated into their culture.

Though admittedly governments do tend to take over cultures like a parasite once they get a foothold..

But when a large enough segment of the population gets together under a culture based around the nonaggression principle (which has never happened in history) statism will never be able to take hold again.
Because once two or more generations have passed and people really see that voluntary society can work, people will look back and say WTF was wrong with our grandparents?!
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LTKoblinsky

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Re: Why a "Constitution" makes sense for a stateless voluntary society..
« Reply #3 on: April 28, 2011, 02:32:26 PM »

I sincerely don't believe that government is a natural growth from human interaction and business. And there are more than just theoretical reasons to believe this. There are some historical accounts that have convinced me of this as well.
Government is a bizarre aberration to people who have lived without it integrated into their culture.

Though admittedly governments do tend to take over cultures like a parasite once they get a foothold..

But when a large enough segment of the population gets together under a culture based around the nonaggression principle (which has never happened in history) statism will never be able to take hold again.
Because once two or more generations have passed and people really see that voluntary society can work, people will look back and say WTF was wrong with our grandparents?!


All I can say is wow, you've been drinking too much kool-aid. That's not realistic. Show me a society that has survived and thrived without some kind of authority figure or governing body. Even in Somalia (stateless in much of the country), the populace adheres to Xeer, which is enforced across families by elders acting arbitrators. The process is very much voluntary, but still a societal governance. Families and clans are microstates and the elders are a system of courts. It's all voluntary, natural, very liberal.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2011, 02:34:07 PM by LTKoblinsky »
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Turd Ferguson

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Re: Why a "Constitution" makes sense for a stateless voluntary society..
« Reply #4 on: April 28, 2011, 04:02:31 PM »

But when a large enough segment of the population gets together under a culture based around the nonaggression principle (which has never happened in history)

.....and there lies your problem.

Even if you did get a majority thinking this way, culturaly, what guarantees the next 20 generations will hold to these values? Sure, you and your kids believe in it, but as your standard of living increases, new ideas always spring up with the new generations. The problem with your scenario is that as people enjoy the benefits of a free society, they tend to concentrate on just enjoying it rather than keeping the standards that created it in the first place. Thats basically what happened to this country.

Resting on our laurels. Its inevitable. The cycle might start over again, but it always ends up with some big ass form of  government with too much power for their own good.

I think the best you can hope for, is to be lucky enough to be alive at the good end of the big government/free society cycle.

Not what you want to hear, but im right about this, unfortunately.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2011, 04:07:15 PM by quickmike »
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LTKoblinsky

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Re: Why a "Constitution" makes sense for a stateless voluntary society..
« Reply #5 on: April 28, 2011, 04:33:35 PM »

But when a large enough segment of the population gets together under a culture based around the nonaggression principle (which has never happened in history)

.....and there lies your problem.

Even if you did get a majority thinking this way, culturaly, what guarantees the next 20 generations will hold to these values? Sure, you and your kids believe in it, but as your standard of living increases, new ideas always spring up with the new generations. The problem with your scenario is that as people enjoy the benefits of a free society, they tend to concentrate on just enjoying it rather than keeping the standards that created it in the first place. Thats basically what happened to this country.

Resting on our laurels. Its inevitable. The cycle might start over again, but it always ends up with some big ass form of  government with too much power for their own good.

I think the best you can hope for, is to be lucky enough to be alive at the good end of the big government/free society cycle.

Not what you want to hear, but im right about this, unfortunately.
One example a cycle does not create. First off, the outright expression of free market ideas and mechanics is relatively new. It's like fire. Sure, fire has been around forever, but once cavement began exploring its workings, they were able to use it to better themselves and free themselves from many other forms of tyranny (predators, darkness, unprocessed foods). I think its the same way with knowledge of markets and incentives.
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Turd Ferguson

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Re: Why a "Constitution" makes sense for a stateless voluntary society..
« Reply #6 on: April 28, 2011, 04:43:20 PM »

Maybe if you looked at the next 500 years on a graph, similar to a stock chart, you might see higher lows and higher highs in the retention of free market comprehension, with each cycle. My opinion is that it will be a thousand years before we see it really take hold.

I could be wrong, but to think we've got this cycle of reverting back to statism after a period of relative freedom licked, is silly and naive. It will continue for many many generations.
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LTKoblinsky

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Re: Why a "Constitution" makes sense for a stateless voluntary society..
« Reply #7 on: April 28, 2011, 05:23:30 PM »

Maybe if you looked at the next 500 years on a graph, similar to a stock chart, you might see higher lows and higher highs in the retention of free market comprehension, with each cycle. My opinion is that it will be a thousand years before we see it really take hold.

I could be wrong, but to think we've got this cycle of reverting back to statism after a period of relative freedom licked, is silly and naive. It will continue for many many generations.

Good point, but I don't want to save the world. It's just me and my family I'm worried about. I'm willing to work with others to acclomplish that on a community, region or even state level.
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blackie

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Re: Why a "Constitution" makes sense for a stateless voluntary society..
« Reply #8 on: April 28, 2011, 05:28:28 PM »

free themselves from many other forms of tyranny (predators, darkness, unprocessed foods).
Those things aren't forms of tyranny.
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LTKoblinsky

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Re: Why a "Constitution" makes sense for a stateless voluntary society..
« Reply #9 on: April 28, 2011, 05:50:53 PM »

free themselves from many other forms of tyranny (predators, darkness, unprocessed foods).
Those things aren't forms of tyranny.

What, you've never heard FDR's freedoms? Freedom from want, fear, and hunger. The point remains the same, joking or not, though. I think Quickmike got it. Also, that's one of the work posts that I start and then nibble at between tasks, so it's not my best work; I understand that.
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Turd Ferguson

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Re: Why a "Constitution" makes sense for a stateless voluntary society..
« Reply #10 on: April 28, 2011, 06:08:14 PM »

Maybe if you looked at the next 500 years on a graph, similar to a stock chart, you might see higher lows and higher highs in the retention of free market comprehension, with each cycle. My opinion is that it will be a thousand years before we see it really take hold.

I could be wrong, but to think we've got this cycle of reverting back to statism after a period of relative freedom licked, is silly and naive. It will continue for many many generations.

Good point, but I don't want to save the world. It's just me and my family I'm worried about. I'm willing to work with others to acclomplish that on a community, region or even state level.

No argument from me on that.
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Turd Ferguson

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Re: Why a "Constitution" makes sense for a stateless voluntary society..
« Reply #11 on: April 28, 2011, 06:36:49 PM »

What, you've never heard FDR's freedoms? Freedom from want, fear, and hunger. The point remains the same, joking or not, though. I think Quickmike got it.

So simple, a caveman could understand it.
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lucidhawk

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Re: Why a "Constitution" makes sense for a stateless voluntary society..
« Reply #12 on: April 28, 2011, 08:22:15 PM »

All I can say is wow, you've been drinking too much kool-aid. That's not realistic. Show me a society that has survived and thrived without some kind of authority figure or governing body. Even in Somalia (stateless in much of the country), the populace adheres to Xeer, which is enforced across families by elders acting arbitrators. The process is very much voluntary, but still a societal governance. Families and clans are microstates and the elders are a system of courts. It's all voluntary, natural, very liberal.

You contradict yourself. "Its all voluntary.."  Voluntary government is a contradiction in terms.
A "government" that is voluntary, gives up what makes it a government and it becomes a form of business.

The only reason I even brought up "voluntary government" initiallly because it's an idea of people individually choosing, without coercion; going into contracts with a sort of governing business. It's in fact not real government.
Here are some examples of societies that were more anarchistic than Somalia IMO.

- In South East Asia, well over a million essentially stateless peoples ..which I don't even think there is a proper way to refer to them..
- There was a culture in India called "Harappa" that survived for 7 centuries.
- There are some good books on the Icelandic commonwealth from 900 to 1300 AD

There are a number of books on groups of people thriving without governance in America. Which admittedly I have not read. Except for "The Not So Wild, Wild West".
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LTKoblinsky

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Re: Why a "Constitution" makes sense for a stateless voluntary society..
« Reply #13 on: April 29, 2011, 05:30:57 PM »

I'm going to research those societies, but you're missing the point. Xeer is not a "business" entity, its a system of common law, btw. Anyway:
Quote
noun. the exercise of authority over a state, district, organization, institution, etc.; direction; control; rule; management the right, function, or power of ...
www.yourdictionary.com/government
I think that's a pretty good definition and I think that will never cease to exist, but can be organized to say, "if you want to be a part of
  • , you follow these rules." Otherwise, like in Xeer, you are removed from the protection of the family/clan and considered an 'outlaw'.
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lucidhawk

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