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Author Topic: Where are they?  (Read 23133 times)

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Puke

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Re: Where are they?
« Reply #30 on: July 08, 2005, 11:45:40 AM »

I like the idea of incinerators. If you can filter the shit out of the smoke then it's a pretty good way of reducing trash and making electricity.

I would rather have a private company do that, but right now it isn't happening b/c of the government.
But I haven't seen the show so I don't know what they said. I still think that recycling is better for tax money then wars or politician salaries.
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FTL_Ian

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Re: Where are they?
« Reply #31 on: July 08, 2005, 12:38:41 PM »

It's a waste of time, effort, and money.

It only gives worthless bureaucrats jobs.  That's it.  Everything else is for show, to make people think they are doing something for the environment.

Everyone has been hoaxed.  As usual.
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Brian Wolf

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Re: Where are they?
« Reply #32 on: July 08, 2005, 02:16:43 PM »

Did you watch that episode?  If you did, and still believe in recycling, you're lying to yourself.

It's good propaganda.

Did you even read my post?
Penn and Teller are great, but sometimes they think they are more clever than they really are.
The whole bullshit experiment on that show only proved that people don't like to say no to your face. If you think those people would have really put all that crap in seprate bins you are fooling youself.
But did you notice that they proposed no better soloution?
Like I said their only real complaint about it was that it 'didn't make money'. So What? I am not suggesting that the sytem isn't fucked up right now, but the only reason it is , is because its run by ineffiecent burecrats. That dosent mean that it couldn't work. Right? That's like saying that because the government can't do education right then education as an idea is bullshit. right?
And like I said before, before recycling would even do any good is if A) Manufacturers would stop making stuff that is disposable. B) The containers that they do make can be re-used or re-purposed.  Only then would it make sense to recycle what was left. We got along just fine for 100-200,000 years without garbage dumps, now when the population of the world expanding as it is, its more important than ever that we get rid of them.
They say that there is pleny of land available for garbage to be dumped. I say that is not the point. NO land should have to have a dump on it. Its wasteful, stupid and unnessicary.
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FTL_Ian

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Re: Where are they?
« Reply #33 on: July 08, 2005, 02:57:11 PM »

That was not their only real complaint.  They had counter claims for all the recycling advocates' bullshit claims.  The fact that it makes no money points out the futility of the whole process.

There were other complaints, including the part about recycling creating more pollution than making materials from scratch!  How about the complaint that your county's recycling program is just a bullshit government bureaucracy.

It's been a while since I've seen the episode, but in regards to landfills, don't forget that those are either operated by governments or government approved monopolies.  If we had Free Market competition in garbage collection, we might not have landfills anymore.  Who knows what people seeking profit would come up with.
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Brian Wolf

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Re: Where are they?
« Reply #34 on: July 09, 2005, 01:00:57 PM »


There were other complaints, including the part about recycling creating more pollution than making materials from scratch!

Their logic on that one was flawed. To reach that argument they said that because the garbage trucks had to drive the trash to a recycling center, and then to a manufacturer, and then to be sold, that it wasted more fuel. They forgot to mention that it takes way more fuel to dig up raw materials from the ground than it does to transport them, and they didn't add in the cost of enviornmetal damage either.
It is pretty easy to skew the facts in your direction. The republicans have been 'proving' for years that global warming dosent exist, this is the ulitmate bullshit. Put out by mega corporations who finds that it is much more profitable than being 'environmentaly friendly'.

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How about the complaint that your county's recycling program is just a bullshit government bureaucracy.


Again, I get the feeling that you did'nt read my whole post, which said
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I am not suggesting that the sytem isn't fucked up right now, but the only reason it is , is because its run by ineffiecent burecrats.

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It's been a while since I've seen the episode, but in regards to landfills, don't forget that those are either operated by governments or government approved monopolies.  If we had Free Market competition in garbage collection, we might not have landfills anymore.  Who knows what people seeking profit would come up with.

I am sure whatever the free market comes up with would be wonderful, but I have heard of no better solution so far.

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shanek

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Re: Where are they?
« Reply #35 on: July 12, 2005, 04:18:44 PM »

Their argument that recycling isn't profitable is ignorant. There are plenty of things that are worthwile that aren't profitable.

And that means we should be forced to pay for it by government?

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Their argument that '...there is still plenty of land left to dump trash' is way beside the point, but I am willing to bet that neither Penn nor Teller live next to a dump, nor would they want to.

If you lived next to a dump, you probably wouldn't even notice it. Most of them look just like cleared fields.

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But thats just it, they can afford to live wherever they want.

P&T both built their homes on cheap land in the Nevada desert near Las Vegas.

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Recycling isn't the answer to the trash problem, and it was never meant to be. It was meant as a stop gap soulution to help reduce the harm of all this disposable shit.

Which would be?

BTW, it takes more energy and creates more pollution to recycle a newspaper or a plastic bottle than it does to make it again from scratch.
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shanek

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Re: Where are they?
« Reply #36 on: July 12, 2005, 04:20:16 PM »

Like I said their only real complaint about it was that it 'didn't make money'.

You obviously didn't watch the episode.
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Brian Wolf

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Re: Where are they?
« Reply #37 on: July 12, 2005, 09:14:56 PM »


And that means we should be forced to pay for it by government?
Did I say that? NO

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If you lived next to a dump, you probably wouldn't even notice it. Most of them look just like cleared fields.

Bullshit. I did live near a dump. It look like a mountain of trash and smelled like shit.

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P&T both built their homes on cheap land in the Nevada desert near Las Vegas.

On or near a garbage dump?

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Recycling isn't the answer to the trash problem, and it was never meant to be. It was meant as a stop gap soulution to help reduce the harm of all this disposable shit.

Which would be?
What?

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BTW, it takes more energy and creates more pollution to recycle a newspaper or a plastic bottle than it does to make it again from scratch.
This is not true.
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shanek

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Re: Where are they?
« Reply #38 on: July 12, 2005, 09:58:00 PM »

Did I say that? NO

You referred to P&T's argument against paying for recycling, and that's what they were talking about.

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Bullshit. I did live near a dump. It look like a mountain of trash and smelled like shit.

Come visit. I'll take you to a landfill. I'll bet you you won't even believe me when I tell you it's a landfill until you take a tour of the place. I'll take you golfing or to a beautiful park on landfills, and I doublt you'll believe they were landfills, either.

Or, did you mean a government household garbage collection site? Because that's a different thing entirely.

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On or near a garbage dump?

Irrelevant to your point.

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What?

What do you mean, "What?" Support your assertion!

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This is not true.

This absolutely is true. You're just in denial. The only substance for which this isn't true is aluminum; that's why they PAY YOU FOR IT!

If it is true, then there's this big unexploited market out there. Go for it! Start your own recycling business and pay people to bring their plastic and newspaper to you! See then for youself how true it is...
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Brian Wolf

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Re: Where are they?
« Reply #39 on: July 12, 2005, 10:40:28 PM »

You referred to P&T's argument against paying for recycling, and that's what they were talking about.
Actually, I was talking about the Idea of recycling, not the way it works now. Ian brought up P&T.

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Come visit. I'll take you to a landfill. I'll bet you you won't even believe me when I tell you it's a landfill until you take a tour of the place. I'll take you golfing or to a beautiful park on landfills, and I doublt you'll believe they were landfills, either.
Just because you can paint a turd gold, dosent make it valuable.

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Or, did you mean a government household garbage collection site? Because that's a different thing entirely.
All I know is it said "Monroe County Landfill" on the sign and there was a mountain of trash behind it. And I used to haul construction debris to another landfill which was much worse.

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Irrelevant to your point.
No, acutally, that was my point. They can safely say "Hey landfills are great!" all they want because they know that they will never be forced to live near one.

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What do you mean, "What?" Support your assertion!
My quote
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"Recycling isn't the answer to the trash problem, and it was never meant to be. It was meant as a stop gap soulution to help reduce the harm of all this disposable shit."
and then you said
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"Which would be?"
what is your question?

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This absolutely is true. You're just in denial. The only substance for which this isn't true is aluminum; that's why they PAY YOU FOR IT!
If it is true, then there's this big unexploited market out there. Go for it! Start your own recycling business and pay people to bring their plastic and newspaper to you! See then for youself how true it is...
No. Just because you can't make money from recycling, that does not prove that "it takes more energy and creates more pollution to recycle a newspaper or a plastic bottle than it does to make it again from scratch." the only thing that proves is that its cheaper for them to do it the way that they have been.
And Like I said before. Reycling will only work if the other systems are in place. You cant just say, Oh, I recycle so everything will be all right. Recycling alone will solve nothig, it was never meant to be a soloution. that dosent mean that it is a bad idea.
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shanek

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Re: Where are they?
« Reply #40 on: July 12, 2005, 11:29:54 PM »

All I know is it said "Monroe County Landfill" on the sign

Government, then. Municipal at that. That's all you need to know.

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No, acutally, that was my point. They can safely say "Hey landfills are great!" all they want because they know that they will never be forced to live near one.

No one is forced to live near one. No one is forced to live anywhere.

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what is your question?

What is the "harm of all this disposable shit"?

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If it is true, then there's this big unexploited market out there. Go for it! Start your own recycling business and pay people to bring their plastic and newspaper to you! See then for youself how true it is...
No.

Why not? Afraid to be proven wrong?

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Just because you can't make money from recycling, that does not prove that "it takes more energy and creates more pollution to recycle a newspaper or a plastic bottle than it does to make it again from scratch."

If it takes less energy, it can be done more cheaply. Ergo, you should be able to make money doing it. And the hybrid cars prove there is a market for things that don't pollute as much. So start your corporation and market to the greenies. Unless, of course, you're afraid of being proven wrong...
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Brian Wolf

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Re: Where are they?
« Reply #41 on: July 13, 2005, 03:32:17 AM »


Government, then. Municipal at that. That's all you need to know.
Your point here. I have already said that It shouldn't be the governments job, and they fuck it up.

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No one is forced to live near one. No one is forced to live anywhere.
If the government puts one in my neighborhood, then yea. I am pretty much forced to, or If that is the only place I can afford to live. I realise that I could move. If I could afford to that is, and if anyone would want to buy my house or land at a reasonble rate, now that it is next to a landfill. But that isn't much of an option. Its not exactally being forced, but close enough for me.
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What is the "harm of all this disposable shit"?
How about landfills, for one, how about all of the pollution it takes to remake all of the plastic's that get thrown away. How about all of the money we waste every year on useless shit that we throw away. I don't care for throwing money away. How about all of the trash that is thrown out of car windows, littering our roadways, parks, homes, and well, everywhere. I could keep going.

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Why not? Afraid to be proven wrong?
A) I don't want to start a recycling buisnes. B) I never said that there was a monetary profit from it. In fact I have said several times that I agree that, at least the way its set up now, that it isn't profitable. I also said that "THAT IS NOT THE FUCKING POINT" Goddamn. You people act like if there isn't a dime to be made at something then its not worthwhile.

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If it takes less energy, it can be done more cheaply. Ergo, you should be able to make money doing it. And the hybrid cars prove there is a market for things that don't pollute as much. So start your corporation and market to the greenies. Unless, of course, you're afraid of being proven wrong...

It is not nessicarily the case that if it takes less energy, it can be done more cheaply. I am not afraid of being proven wrong. If you can go right ahead. I will adimit it if I am wrong. So far, I have heard nothing that I haven't heard come out of republicans mouths time and again. Of course, they have been saying that smoking pot and global warming were wrong for years. It dosent' make it true just because they say it over and over again.
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HardyMachia

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Re: Where are they?
« Reply #42 on: July 13, 2005, 01:36:28 PM »

Of course, they have been saying that smoking pot and global warming were wrong for years. It dosent' make it true just because they say it over and over again.

It's Global Climate Change now because they can't figure out if it is warming this decade or it it is global cooling that they were predicting the end of the  world with a couple decades ago. Of course some people saw the documentary called The Day After Tomorrow and now expect global warming to create the next ice age.

I'll enjoy my summer which is hotter than the last two summers, but not hotter than the two prior to those.

Hardy
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shanek

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Re: Where are they?
« Reply #43 on: July 13, 2005, 03:56:38 PM »

If the government puts one in my neighborhood, then yea.

There's that word "government" again. In a free market, if you don't want a garbage dump in your neighborhood, and your neighbors concur, set up deed restrictions. But the government can always declare eminent domain and put it wherever they want. The force here is by government.

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How about landfills, for one,

What harm do landfills constitute?

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how about all of the pollution it takes to remake all of the plastic's that get thrown away.

They're going to get remade anyway. They don't recycle plastic because it's more expensive and creates more pollution to do so. The recycled plastic goes to make bullshit products that are three times as expensive as they need to be.

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How about all of the money we waste every year on useless shit that we throw away. I don't care for throwing money away. How about all of the trash that is thrown out of car windows, littering our roadways, parks, homes, and well, everywhere.

Nothing to do with what we're talking about.

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A) I don't want to start a recycling buisnes. B) I never said that there was a monetary profit from it.

But if what you say is true, then there would be a profit to be made from it. Why haven't people done so?

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It is not nessicarily the case that if it takes less energy, it can be done more cheaply.

Uh, yes, it is, actually. Less costs means that something can be done more cheaply.
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shanek

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Re: Where are they?
« Reply #44 on: July 13, 2005, 03:57:46 PM »

I'll enjoy my summer which is hotter than the last two summers, but not hotter than the two prior to those.

The fact that this summer is hotter is evidence of Global Warming! And the fact that the previous two summers weren't as hot is evidence of Global Warming! Don't you know? EVERYTHING is evidence of Global Warming!
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