What to do about post-quake Haiti?

[fatcat]

I am not blaming the devastation on the citizens entirely (everyone knows the truth, what Pat Robertson said), but I am blaming the citizens for being completely fucking backwards, culturally speaking, in a modern world.

You reply as if I have a hatred for these people - I don't. I don't have any particular love for them either. Is it insensitive for me to say this, particularly in the aftermath of this latest disaster? You bet, just as it is insensitive for me to say that I don't care about being called insensitive. There are problems worldwide, not all can be corrected. Pitching in is a nice idea, nicer when it begins with the people who will receive what's being pitched.

Back to DR, that country doesn't especially like the idea of having a lot of Haitian immigrants. Their own neighbor doesn't want them. The fact that collectively (yes, I went there) they are so fucking helpless is what compassionate people need to investigate as opposed to how much money needs to be thrown at their problems.

Never claimed money would fix the government, and you've not directly disputed the reasons I think no one can have a hand in changing the government.

Toss out Singapore, India, Zimbabwe for a second and focus on the other half of the island - Dominican Republic. Same island, same resources, different culture, different gov., different outcome.

Thats the only part that matters.

 

You dodge that concept in each of your replies in favor of continuing your focus on me and my lowdown hatin' ways, or making comparisons to how other countries have succeeded after people managed to rise above living in shanties. The people of Haiti have had ample time to  organize grassroots efforts to place their government in a position weak of power in order to further the gain and opportunity of the average citizen whether by peaceful tactics or by force (get their shit together).

Its nationalist codswallop that peoples outcomes are down to "culture" or backwardsness rather than government.

If not ALL, its 99.9% down to government.

Your DM example is INCREDIBLY short sighted.

Its facile to say that because they're illiterate/backwards thats why they're living in Shanties and are starving.

Haiti has a higher literacy rate than Morocco and Pakistan.

Morocco has the 57th highest GDP (in PPP), and Pakistan is the 27th.

Haiti is 135th.

Are Pakistan not backward?

It's the government, stupid.

Yeah those Haitians are just backwards motherfuckers. The only reason they're starving is cause they can't read a fucking book. They're probably just lazy. Too lazy to learn to read. Bad attitude, thats what it is.

The fact that collectively (yes, I went there) they are so fucking helpless is what compassionate people need to investigate as opposed to how much money needs to be thrown at their problems.

This is the attitude I've been arguing against, this is whats fucked up and seems disturbingly misunderstanding.

Haitians are NO MORE HELPLESS than the Chinese are or the Indians were or are.

The indians and the Chinese are amongst the most productive people in the world. why?

 Do they have a better culture? They have the same culture they did 40 years ago. Before P. V. Narasimha Rao got in (and to a lesser extent Rajiv Gandhi), you could have said exactly the same thing about Indians.

They have a backwards culture, why do they live in shit? Ever since the British left they've been poor, Indian people are just helpless and illiterate. Why do they still use 200 year old loom technology?

Indian literacy is STILL only 61%! Haiti is 52%!

Indians and Chinese are among the most productive because PEOPLE are most productive. They make themselves rich if you let them, they don't if you don't.

Its the government, stupid.

The people of Haiti have had ample time to  organize grassroots efforts to place their government in a position weak of power in order to further the gain and opportunity of the average citizen whether by peaceful tactics or by force (get their shit together).

This is fucking dumb for reasons I've mentioned before.

Indians individuals had NO conscious role in liberalizing the economy, it was essentially an accident that the right two guys got in at the right time. China is the same but more so cause there isn't even proper voting. In fact most chinese are still in favor of communism, the government just lies to the rural fucks about what they're doing.

You talk as if people in democracies understand the parties and the outcomes of their votes, not to mention lots of parties lie about what they're going to do (remember when Bush said he wouldn't nation build and would have small government?)

People in Zimbabwe DO NOT WANT mugabe to be in charge but they can't get rid of him because he's too powerful.

People vote for really bad reasons ALL OVER THE FUCKING WORLD. People in the UK cannot tell the difference between the two main parties if you take the name off the list of policies. How could you possibly believe people actually vote rationally?

People are no more to blame for a bad government than they are for a good one.

[fatcat]

One bit more about Dominican republic.

IT wouldn't be by any chance that Dominican Republic President Fernandez enacted market reforms during his 1996-2000 term?

And before you claim "well Dominicans have a better culture so they knew to vote for market reforms", they voted his party out after 2000 because people thought he hadn't improved living standards!

Clearly people were not voting for better conditions if they voted out someone who caused some of the biggest raises in wages and GDP in the nations history. They were doing what all democratic people do. Vote someone in, blame any problems on them, vote the opposition in, repeat. Its essentially I cycle where choice has no meaning.

Look at 2000 in this chart, thats when the socialists got in. The only reason why Fernandez ever got back in was because people automatically vote for the biggest opposition whenever shit goes bad.

Haiti could be JUST as rich as DR if they lucked out with the right government.

[mikehz]

Remember that Haiti is a largely Catholic country, with a Church mandate to essentially breed like bunnies.

[ForumTroll]

FATCAT MUST BE RIGHT BECAUSE HE ARGUES WITH SUCH PASSION OVER THE INTERNETS

[fatcat]

FATCAT MUST BE RIGHT BECAUSE HE ARGUES WITH SUCH PASSION OVER THE INTERNETS

BONERJOE MUST LET PEOPLE KNOW HOW SUPERIOR HE IS FOR NOT ENGAGING IN STUPID ARGUMENTS.

The only thing thats a bigger waste of time than arguing on internet forums, is going on internet forums to bitch at people who like to argue on internet forums.

You don't like how I post, I get it, no one else seems to care, now shut the fuck up, pretty please?

What did you expect from a thread called "What to do about post-quake Haiti?"?

If anyone is actually taking things too seriously, its you with your weird ass vendetta to knock me down a peg, even though ostensibly you don't care what I have to say.

hint : people who really don't care don't write about it.

Some people like to get in depth in their discussions here, others don't. I don't constantly get up your ass for not taking things as seriously as me, whats with the 9 foot stick up your ass?

[hellbilly]

What did you expect from a thread called "What to do about post-quake Haiti?"?

I'd like to get back to that actually. We've officially reached an impasse on the satellite arguments I reckon.

My suggestion: fix Haiti, don't settle for a patch. Now is the time for people who truly care to spread the word about the conditions there- whether it's the fault of the gov. or the people, either way, the place has been fucked up for far too long.

Once that chore is done, then move on to the next country with issues. But how to go about setting priorities? N Korea, where there have been reports of cannibalism? Hot spots in Africa, perhaps Darfur & Sudan, where massive amounts of violence, rape, murder, genocide have been ongoing for who knows how long? Michigan? Ukraine, Sao Paulo, Ethiopia, Cambodia... ?

Is the only other alternative to sit back and wait for Mother Nature to decide who wins the next Big Disaster Lotto?

Civilized folks are rearin' to help, right? How much will Haiti receive in money compared to the amount spent on perfume, pet food, sneakers, phones, Cheetos, coffee, etc. ? If dedication is measured in monetary aid, then it appears a whole lotta people aren't as dedicated as they give themselves credit for.

[Diogenes The Cynic]

What did you expect from a thread called "What to do about post-quake Haiti?"?

I'd like to get back to that actually. We've officially reached an impasse on the satellite arguments I reckon.

My suggestion: fix Haiti, don't settle for a patch. Now is the time for people who truly care to spread the word about the conditions there- whether it's the fault of the gov. or the people, either way, the place has been fucked up for far too long.

Once that chore is done, then move on to the next country with issues. But how to go about setting priorities? N Korea, where there have been reports of cannibalism? Hot spots in Africa, perhaps Darfur & Sudan, where massive amounts of violence, rape, murder, genocide have been ongoing for who knows how long? Michigan? Ukraine, Sao Paulo, Ethiopia, Cambodia... ?

Is the only other alternative to sit back and wait for Mother Nature to decide who wins the next Big Disaster Lotto?

Civilized folks are rearin' to help, right? How much will Haiti receive in money compared to the amount spent on perfume, pet food, sneakers, phones, Cheetos, coffee, etc. ? If dedication is measured in monetary aid, then it appears a whole lotta people aren't as dedicated as they give themselves credit for.

I sorta like your idea.

The issue of "us" solving their problems becomes a sticky issue because if its private enterprise, I am ok with it, but if it's our government or worse yet, every government working through the U.N. then I can't support the effort.

The other issue is of what to do. Forcing change can make for a little difference, as long as we are there, but empowering them to do it themselves would do more longer.

[fatcat]

What did you expect from a thread called "What to do about post-quake Haiti?"?

I'd like to get back to that actually. We've officially reached an impasse on the satellite arguments I reckon.

My suggestion: fix Haiti, don't settle for a patch. Now is the time for people who truly care to spread the word about the conditions there- whether it's the fault of the gov. or the people, either way, the place has been fucked up for far too long.

Civilized folks are rearin' to help, right? How much will Haiti receive in money compared to the amount spent on perfume, pet food, sneakers, phones, Cheetos, coffee, etc. ? If dedication is measured in monetary aid, then it appears a whole lotta people aren't as dedicated as they give themselves credit for.

Wait so now aids a good thing?

My suggestion: fix Haiti, don't settle for a patch.

You haven't once mentioned how this could possibly be achieved.

There is no reliable way of getting a government to liberalize the market.

A patch will help because it will help stability and in pretty much every case where a economically destructive government has turned liberal it has been preceded by long periods of stability.

Zimbabwe is a perfect retort to the simplistic "they should just get rid of the government" route.

Zimbabwe is as bad as ever even though there was massive support against Mugabe. Government is a hammer to unwieldy to be purposefully directed by voters. Essentially voting is binary (except for coalition parliaments), you either vote for the government you have now or you vote against them, its not possible for ordinary people to understand the complexity and make rational choices.

Haitis ruling power got 50%, the next biggest party got 12%, and they're socialist and would probably fuck the country just as bad. In fact most political parties in Haiti are very similar except they all claim they'll get rid of corruption.

The only people who can make a difference to the Haiti government are a select few influential politicians and people who can influence those politicians. 99.9% of people aren't those people.

The US government could theoretically pressure them into market liberalization, but how likely is that?

The mantra for disasters is more government, not less. Getting rid of the disaster is A1 priority in getting rid of market interference which is the only sustainable fix.

The short term fix is beneficial for the long term fix.

[Riddler]

The USA has been fucking with Haiti for a long time. They wouldn't have so many problems if the USA didn't cause those problems.

oh for christs sakes, will you fucking STOP already?
spain, france, germany have gold stars for fucking w/ haiti.

[Riddler]

FOOD PRICES!!!!!!????????
scuse me, but aren't these people surrounded by fucking ocean?
what lives in the ocean, fatcat?
you can't throw a rock in the water without hitting a fucking fish, for fuck's sake....
stop already...
motherfuckers should have shrimp & fish coming out their assholes

[Riddler]

Manageable? Entirely.

Awesome.

That was for fatcat but you and he share that fondness for thoroughness

Understandable.  I've noticed that too, hopefully we'll never had a endurance battle where fatcat and I start disagreeing with each others posts.  I can see the potential for great and terrible things there.

I agree with all items in your lists. My commentary is more from a social angle than a review of political misdeeds that Haiti may have suffered from. But I look forward to learning more from that path of discussion in this topic.

Fair.

How many people remember much about any past natural disaster? The tsunami a few years ago for example, that was a tearjerker for a month or so, made all the headlines, people were eager to assist. What happened to all the rebuilding projects, all the money?

Excellent question. Same Q's could also be made about New Orleans post-Katrina.  The city is still not in a state of full recovery, what happened to all the political outrage / money / assistance there?

I don't have an answer.

It seems to me to be insincere when people spontaneously become concerned with their fellow man, burdened with troubles long before whatever makes the headlines.

Conceded.

I think I understand the position/point you are trying to make a little better, or I am reading a different context that I find be very compelling; the regular application of the compassion that we as liberty-minded individuals are so quick to flout.   My father terms it, "actively caring."

To your point, I am also 100% guilty of this. Three days ago the last time I even thought about Haiti was when I heard Gregg Proops describe Mississippi as, "a little slice of haiti right on our own shores," in one of his stand-ups a friend of mine wanted me to listen to-and now here I am talking about "compassion is good."

It's an excuse for hand holding, and wringing, for Hollywood to perform a special gig for the plain folk who in the end will feel more complete as an individual for having their emotions played.

Understandable, and it's an interesting human dynamic - we often take symbolic victories/defeats as real ones.  In this case, that special gig where a fraction of the money actually gets in the hands of the individuals the drive/gig is supposed to benefit.  By all objective terms could be considered a "failure" based upon the gross earnings, but that axiom, "it's the thought that counts," seems play very large in a lot of individual's consciousness.

But shit.. I'm not saying to drop a load of shovels from a helicopter and tell them to dig themselves out. There's the bigger picture to consider and no one seems to notice.

I would be interested if you would be willing to more explicitly delineate that "bigger picture," as perhaps in my own ignorance I could either not be seeing it, or seeing a different picture than the one you intend to analyze.

UNMANAGEABLE

[blackie]

The USA has been fucking with Haiti for a long time. They wouldn't have so many problems if the USA didn't cause those problems.

oh for christs sakes, will you fucking STOP already?
spain, france, germany have gold stars for fucking w/ haiti.

Whever. Go salute a flag or something.

http://www.answers.com/topic/u-s-military-involvement-in-haiti

[Riddler]

http://www.answers.com/topic/u-s-military-involvement-in-haiti

looks like we did more good than bad
the french & spanish gave that country the royal fuck
why they're all effed up today

[theCelestrian]

UNMANAGEABLE

Poppy-cock.  This is one of my shorter analyses, so I would suggest buckling up because like fatcat, they won't go away.  However, rather simply provide chastisement, I will provide you a method to make lengthy posts "MANAGEABLE:"

• Take a smaller chunk of the post - look for the main point(s)
• If it's worth discussing to you, qoute that section and respond.
• If not, move to the next section
• Repeat as necessary

I highly doubt you are physically incapable of doing the above - and would be interested in see what you would have to say. . . provided it's constructive.

[Riddler]

UNMANAGEABLE

Poppy-cock.  This is one of my shorter analyses, so I would suggest buckling up because like fatcat, they won't go away.  However, rather simply provide chastisement, I will provide you a method to make lengthy posts "MANAGEABLE:"

• Take a smaller chunk of the post - look for the main point(s)
• If it's worth discussing to you, qoute that section and respond.
• If not, move to the next section
• Repeat as necessary

I highly doubt you are physically incapable of doing the above - and would be interested in see what you would have to say. . . provided it's constructive.

easy guy.
i was jus fuckin about