What to do about post-quake Haiti?

[hellbilly]

The whole world was effected by US ethanol subsidies (along with some other converging factors),

What made it fuck Haiti was that it was already fragile economic state, combined with increases in fuel prices at the time, mass unemployment and decrease in worldwide rice exports.

Lots of people where right on the edge of being able to afford food when the food prices started rocketing.

So the world should put everything on hold while Haiti catches up? Ethanol can't be singled out as the cause for conditions in Haiti.

There was widespread rioting when the food shortage kicked in. When people start rioting the free market rules go out the window (not that Haiti has a particularly free market).

You know I don't support taxation, so this isn't about justifying that. these people are/were eating mud. None of us on this board have any idea how bad life like that is.

They're in a familiar cycle. Disaster (man made or natural), loot, riot, repeat. Doesn't seem as if Haiti has a had a truly balanced society at any time in history. The most balanced time was probably when the French were operating sugar plantations with slave labor- an act I do not think is right- but demonstrates that something aside from poverty is possible. One would think that by now they'd at least have developed a method for clearing streets of rubbish.

Eating mud pretty much sums it up. Can no one fish? No room for chickens or goats? Maybe a fruit tree somewhere?

At a certain point you have to just pitch in and help  even if its just a temp fix to relieve some of the suffering.

And at some point you have to stop enabling.

If my tax dollars are to be spent on anything, I'm pleased that they go to relief efforts in cases like this. But at least develop some sort of infrastructure to correct the problem.

You said "If you choose to live in shanties built on a hillside in a quake zone.."

Wasn't the implied sentence, "If you choose to live in shanties built on a hillside in a quake zone.. then its not a surprise if your house gets knocked down by a earthquake"?

What I was saying is that they live in shanties for very good reasons, the way you say it you made it sound as if its a stupid move of all the people living in shanties because earthquakes knock them down easily.

Yes, that's what I said and implied. Nowhere in that comment do I say that all of them, or any of them though certainly there are a couple, are stupid. Perhaps there are some people who are down on their luck, and figure they'll test the odds.

When the Yellowstone Caldera finally goes, are you not going to help anyone cause they should've built a volcano proof house?

I will pledge to help them on the following conditions:
- don't rebuild shantytown
- don't trash your chance to rebuild your community and your life
- no more throwing human fecal matter out of your window onto your neighbors doorstep

Shanties aren't a failure or a sign of poverty (even though the people are a poor), its a mid point that happens when you have rapid urbanization.

On these shores, we call them "suburbs".

[hellbilly]

That was for fatcat but you and he share that fondness for thoroughness

Understandable.  I've noticed that too, hopefully we'll never had a endurance battle where fatcat and I start disagreeing with each others posts.  I can see the potential for great and terrible things there.

I vow to do all I can to make this event happen!

Excellent question. Same Q's could also be made about New Orleans post-Katrina.  The city is still not in a state of full recovery, what happened to all the political outrage / money / assistance there?

I don't have an answer.

No answer here either. Last I heard, Brad Pitt was in charge.

But shit.. I'm not saying to drop a load of shovels from a helicopter and tell them to dig themselves out. There's the bigger picture to consider and no one seems to notice.

I would be interested if you would be willing to more explicitly delineate that "bigger picture," as perhaps in my own ignorance I could either not be seeing it, or seeing a different picture than the one you intend to analyze.

The short of it is that Haiti has problems so large and deeply embedded that even 7.0 earthquakes can't wipe out.

The rest of what I'd say to paint the picture more clearly basically boils down to individuals eager to help, but have no real attachment or interest in Haiti, it's struggles or problems before or after the current disaster; their dedication to fixing the problems will end when it's time for them to buy their next latte.

I've spent too long on this already and will now go have a ciggy.

[Diogenes The Cynic]

When an airplane crashes the FAA finds out why, and determines the set of actions that would prevent that event from happening again. Similarly, people who live outside of Haiti have a vested interest in latent humanitarians to gather together and give to them a solution.

Basically the minor problem is the earthquake, and the major one is the institutionalized problems they have there, and thats what people who want to help should focus on.

[fatcat]

They're in a familiar cycle. Disaster (man made or natural), loot, riot, repeat. Doesn't seem as if Haiti has a had a truly balanced society at any time in history. The most balanced time was probably when the French were operating sugar plantations with slave labor- an act I do not think is right- but demonstrates that something aside from poverty is possible. One would think that by now they'd at least have developed a method for clearing streets of rubbish.

Eating mud pretty much sums it up. Can no one fish? No room for chickens or goats? Maybe a fruit tree somewhere?

..... "Can no one fish?"

I guess they're too fucking stupid to think of that. better send the memo ASAP.

60+% of Haitians live on subsidence farming. That means raising animals and growing crops with limited tools and limited space.Its a fucking shit existence. Haiti is more mountainous than Switzerland, and has very limited arable land, and is the 30th densest place on earth.

Theres a reason 70% of the GDP comes from 35% of workers (even the unemployment is rife)

Eating mud pretty much sums it up. Can no one fish? No room for chickens or goats? Maybe a fruit tree somewhere?

The majority of Haitians are already doing that and they're the worst off and are doing the least to improve their lives.

hurr hurr eating mud is stupid......

Have you no empathy? They're eating mud (based foods) to stave off hunger pains from the fucking endemic poverty and starvation. 3.8 million Haitians are malnourished.

Try not getting enough food for your entire life and then see if you turn down mud cakes.

At a certain point you have to just pitch in and help  even if its just a temp fix to relieve some of the suffering.

And at some point you have to stop enabling.

If my tax dollars are to be spent on anything, I'm pleased that they go to relief efforts in cases like this. But at least develop some sort of infrastructure to correct the problem.

Theres nothing we as individuals can do to fix the Haitian government, but we can give the individuals a chance by charity aid.

The government is the primary reason Haiti is fucked. People are pretty much the same all over the world, its not because haitian individuals are too lazy or too stupid to work. If you're still alive for any extended period time in Haiti you have to be a hard worker.

Hundreds of thousands of people have probably died and are going to die as a result of this earthquake. If you don't care, you're scum.

Charity money will not enable shit except for some people not to die. Government aid (as in aid to the government) is another question (although largely its better than nothing), but thats not what im talking about.

Yes, that's what I said and implied. Nowhere in that comment do I say that all of them, or any of them though certainly there are a couple, are stupid. Perhaps there are some people who are down on their luck, and figure they'll test the odds.

I don't get the point. If you don't think they were stupid to live in Shanties why did you mention it like it was a mistake?

If it wasn't a stupid move, then the fact an earthquake hit them makes it a tragedy, not a fuck up.

I will pledge to help them on the following conditions:
- don't rebuild shantytown
- don't trash your chance to rebuild your community and your life
- no more throwing human fecal matter out of your window onto your neighbors doorstep

Have you read anything I've written on Shanty towns? SHANTY TOWNS ARENT A FUCK UP.

Shantytowns are (pretty much) the only way for poor people in Haiti to have a chance at becoming richer.

Shanty towns are in a shit state because the people there are shit poor and they have more important things to focus on than clearing up their shit. (like how to make enough money so you don't have to eat mud)

The housing is low quality because thats all you can afford when you're coming straight out of middle ages type subsidence living.


If they don't rebuild the shantytowns they can't afford to live in urban areas. If they can't live in urban areas they can't afford to commute to the city which means all they can do is farm on very small amounts of land with tiny amounts of capital.

Which means they'll never get out of poverty.

The ones who live in Shanties are the ones who are actually making a try instead of giving up and settling for poverty in subsidence.

The way poor Hatians will drag themselves out of poverty is the same way poor Indians did it. Slumworkers.

Shanties aren't a failure or a sign of poverty (even though the people are a poor), its a mid point that happens when you have rapid urbanization.

On these shores, we call them "suburbs".

fail. Suburbs are not equivalent to shanty towns. not enough space to get into why but i should hope its pretty obvious (price, geography, jobs)

You could say all the same (retarded) opinions about urban slums in industrial 19th century england. Why did they throw shit into the street, why didn't they clean the streets, why did they have fuck all infrastructure, why did they live in such cramped shitty conditions.

They were shitholes and the only way you could get a chance not to live in a shithole was to live in one. They're makeshift pioneer outposts for people making their lives better.

Shanties are a symbol of hope and you think they should be gotten rid of because you don't understand the first thing about being poor in an industrializing nation.

(not that I know that much about it, but at least i know that "don't you have any room for animals" is fucking retardedly out of touch)

[ForumTroll]

[hellbilly]

!

I don't know where to begin in responding to you in detail, so I won't. If you make a point once, I'll likely comprehend it. If you make a point twice, I'll likely comprehend it. If you make a point three times, I'll likely comprehend it, etc.

The headlines on the quake today brought some good feelings- survivors being located and rescued. Particularly the one with photos of the 2 year old.

The point that I'm making, and I know you must understand, is that something should change in order to give this 2 year old a shot at having a quality lifestyle. Not "quality" in comparison to the lifestyles of kids in leading world countries, just a shot at health, happiness & opportunity.

For me it's not enough that this kid survive a quake, be put in the spotlight for a day, given a cookie and a bath and then be sent off back into the rubble- which in effect is exactly what's likely to happen when the foreign aid runs out, rescuers go home and Hollywood shuts off the studio lights.

That's compassion.

Truly give Haiti a fix, revamp their economy and infrastructure - or stop pretending. But that isn't going to happen, at least not if it's left to the US gov. (& Hollywood)- this country can't even fix Detroit or Appalachia.

*And yes, I hold the citizens in those areas just as accountable for their part in their own conditions just the same as I do Haitians.

The conditions of daily life in (pre-quake) Haiti are clear and well known. You can blame the gov. all you'd like (although that's pretty predictable) but it doesn't change anything. In fact, many liberty thinking individuals would be the first to come up with the idea that a place like Haiti could become a free market paradise if gov. where whooshed away altogether, leaving the citizens to work things out for themselves. Do you think that could happen? Me- I don't have any idea, though I tend to think not since it seems most people there can't manage simple tasks such as picking up garbage.

I think you may have a romanticized vision of the average struggling Haitian, full of boundless potential but so darn shackled by the man!

If the quake hadn't happened.. what? Nothing.

[Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith)]

I heard people cheering Haiti at the bar tonight...

[hellbilly]

What do ya mean? Cheering the rescues?

..oh wait.. you mean cheering as in clashing glasses sorta cheering right?

[Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith)]

What do ya mean? Cheering the rescues?

..oh wait.. you mean cheering as in clashing glasses sorta cheering right?

Both cheering the destruction of a shitty place to live and cheering relief efforts.  Kinda interesting to see what drunk people think.  I believe alcohol is the best "truth serum" out there.

[fatcat]

The point that I'm making, and I know you must understand, is that something should change in order to give this 2 year old a shot at having a quality lifestyle. Not "quality" in comparison to the lifestyles of kids in leading world countries, just a shot at health, happiness & opportunity.

For me it's not enough that this kid survive a quake, be put in the spotlight for a day, given a cookie and a bath and then be sent off back into the rubble- which in effect is exactly what's likely to happen when the foreign aid runs out, rescuers go home and Hollywood shuts off the studio lights.

That's compassion.

Truly give Haiti a fix, revamp their economy and infrastructure - or stop pretending. But that isn't going to happen, at least not if it's left to the US gov. (& Hollywood)- this country can't even fix Detroit or Appalachia.

*And yes, I hold the citizens in those areas just as accountable for their part in their own conditions just the same as I do Haitians.

The conditions of daily life in (pre-quake) Haiti are clear and well known. You can blame the gov. all you'd like (although that's pretty predictable) but it doesn't change anything. In fact, many liberty thinking individuals would be the first to come up with the idea that a place like Haiti could become a free market paradise if gov. where whooshed away altogether, leaving the citizens to work things out for themselves. Do you think that could happen? Me- I don't have any idea, though I tend to think not since it seems most people there can't manage simple tasks such as picking up garbage.

I think you may have a romanticized vision of the average struggling Haitian, full of boundless potential but so darn shackled by the man!

If the quake hadn't happened.. what? Nothing.

I thought I made it clear that we can't fix the root problem?

Quote from me:

"Theres nothing we as individuals can do to fix the Haitian government, but we can give the individuals a chance by charity aid.

The government is the primary reason Haiti is fucked. People are pretty much the same all over the world, its not because haitian individuals are too lazy or too stupid to work. If you're still alive for any extended period time in Haiti you have to be a hard worker."

As I've kept on saying, Haiti (people) will only get better when it follows Indias (gov) path.

India was a poverty hole for decades because of a really bad centrally planned economy. There was nothing the individuals could have done that they weren't already doing because the government was sabotaging any attempt to improve their lives.

Government is a force of nature. You can't fight it as an individual, you just have to weather the storm and hope it lets off.

Individuals can only better their lot through the free market when the free market conditions are right.

Not only has alot of shit happened that destabilized freemarket conditions (riots, resource shortages), but government mismanagement is endemic. And if you think rioting in shit conditions is a Haitian failing, just look at New Orleans or Greece, and they have it way better than Haiti.

-It takes 195 days to start a business in haiti as apposed to the world average of 38 days, and it can take years to get a business liscense.

-Haiti has massively high taxes for a country that poor. 30% top rate income tax. 35% Corporation tax!, not to mention vat and capital gains etc

-11% inflation, and government fixes prices for petrol, and restricts markup on consumer goods

-Government restricts foreign investments in telecommunications, electricity, water etc.

-Government banking system is fucked

- Endemic corruption fucks property rights (scores a 10 for property rights)

- Hours workers can work are restricted, firing an employee is very costly.

This level of interference would fuck a well developed country, let alone a shit poor one like Haiti.

And unlike similarly economically unfree countries like Russia, Haiti does not have large amounts of land or natural resources (gas, oil etc) to cushion the blow.

Its fucked, the government fucked it, and theres no quick fix.

The reason why its not a waste of time or a pointless "quick fix" to help out now, is because peoples lives matter.

 We cant do anything to stop the Haiti government fucking the Haiti people(short of very risky regime  change), but we can save thousands of lives for relatively little money, and reducing the starvation and suffering improves stability, and we know that stable countries lead to stable governments which leads to a better chance of reform.

[BobRobertson]

I believe alcohol is the best "truth serum" out there.

The Latin is....

[hellbilly]

I'm intentionally trying to remain detached in any emotional way so that I can look at the issues rationally. Obviously this is coming off as uncaring & cold. I am troubled by the disaster and the huge number of victims. The cycle is already well known, people become emotionally attached to the current disaster, pour their resources and emotion into the problem for awhile, then it fades while underlying problems linger. Why not try a different approach, even if it is a sort of cold, hard truth? Perhaps that will open up avenues that will truly benefit the survivors.

Haiti was overpopulated. It likely will be after the dust is cleared away after this quake, but as cold as that sounds, is it not beneficial to the survivors?

Haiti has a huge number of incompetent leaders and citizens. Both are normal elements of any society, but it seems the numbers are heavily concentrated on that part of the island. Haiti will still have incompetent leadership and citizens after this is all over. Why not take this moment in the spotlight to direct tough questions at the country? While reconstructing Haiti, the constructors could take a moment to expose the shit that you listed in that link.

Many of the survivors will simply go on as usual. By this I mean living in near savage conditions- that is a personal choice, not a mandate by the gov. Poor does not make one default to being dirty, ignorant and lazy. Enabling a "poverty culture" does.

I have a couple of old tools that I swiped from a Haitian raft, just a couple of flat multi-fitting wrenches. A friend and I went surfing one morning near Sebastian Inlet in FL. It was early, no one there and we noticed what looked like a stack of trash on the beach. Got nearer and saw that it was a raft made of plywood, inner tubes, a tarp, lots of rope. The tools were tied in with the ropes.

Skipping along up the Bahamas, back in the 90's, a lot of Haitian rafts were found on that coast of Fl. That trip has gotta result from having lotsa balls, or lotsa desperation - probably both. It also takes some ingenuity to make a rig that isn't gonna dump you to the sharks. I don't know if whoever floated on the raft made it ashore but I hope they did.

Rafting trips like that wouldn't be necessary if Haitians would get their shit together- starting within their own homes. What a leisurely task it must be to take control of the lives of people who cannot even take care of themselves!

[Level 20 Anklebiter]

Haiti itself is not overpopulated or anything else that's the particular problem with it other than the fact that it's a nation of people built on several faulty principles. In some ways, Haiti is a reflection of a deeper problem in the world culture itself. Not because of any lack of empathy or concern for fellow human beings, but because of the lack of foresight by individuals. For example, recently it's been reported that in Haiti people are barricading the roads with corpses of their fellow quake victims because they feel they're not getting any help. Yet, these same barricades are blocking aide relief vehicles from helping. Go figure. So, really to me it's an issue of how folks think, which leads them to act as silly as they do (like the corpse barricades). I can't assume to know the exact principles at fault here, but I can guess atleast at one of them: dependence on others (God, man, government, etc) for what one can do for one's self. This principle or attitude is not only common in Haiti, it's common everywhere else on the planet. So, to hellbilly, I don't take your lack of kindness for the victims as misplaced, in fact I find it accurate for the situation. But I do think you need to take away from the quake in Haiti the fact that it can and does happen even in supposedly 'healthy' nations. Greensburg Kansas, San Francisco, New Orleans, and etc are all great examples of the follies of Americans, and supposedly we're a 'healthy' nation.

[fatcat]

Haiti was overpopulated. It likely will be after the dust is cleared away after this quake, but as cold as that sounds, is it not beneficial to the survivors?

Many of the survivors will simply go on as usual. By this I mean living in near savage conditions- that is a personal choice, not a mandate by the gov. Poor does not make one default to being dirty, ignorant and lazy. Enabling a "poverty culture" does.

I have a couple of old tools that I swiped from a Haitian raft, just a couple of flat multi-fitting wrenches. A friend and I went surfing one morning near Sebastian Inlet in FL. It was early, no one there and we noticed what looked like a stack of trash on the beach. Got nearer and saw that it was a raft made of plywood, inner tubes, a tarp, lots of rope. The tools were tied in with the ropes.

Skipping along up the Bahamas, back in the 90's, a lot of Haitian rafts were found on that coast of Fl. That trip has gotta result from having lotsa balls, or lotsa desperation - probably both. It also takes some ingenuity to make a rig that isn't gonna dump you to the sharks. I don't know if whoever floated on the raft made it ashore but I hope they did.

Rafting trips like that wouldn't be necessary if Haitians would get their shit together- starting within their own homes. What a leisurely task it must be to take control of the lives of people who cannot even take care of themselves!

You're still blaming individual Haitians when its the fault of <1% of the population (government).

And what is this obsession with their houses? Indians had just as bad housing in Mumbai (many still do), it not because their slovenly and its not some symptom of underlying failure (obviously in the case of India it can't be since they're becoming as rich as Kroesus)

Haitians frequently riot against the government. They're not complacent, there just isn't an effective way of quickly changing a government. Democracy is not an avenue for individuals to make change (much less because most people don't know which parties will do what)

"get your shit together" doesn't mean anything.

How did India go from one of the worst economic powers to one of the best in 30 years?

Did people get their shit together? No. It was like that for decades and it changed because of one politician, P. V. Narasimha Rao, and he only got into power because no party could get a majority that year and a new party was formed. The egg cannot lay the chicken.

Eventually the right circumstances came together which meant certain the right guy was in power and did the right thing at the right time.

One might aswell say that Zimbabweans should just "get their shit together".

Some manage to escape the borders, but since they're surrounded by countries that don't allow free immigration its not always possible or worth the risk of death.

Obviously the cream of individuals will find a way, but this doesn't mean those that remains are idiots or lazy.

Haiti was overpopulated. It likely will be after the dust is cleared away after this quake, but as cold as that sounds, is it not beneficial to the survivors?

The destruction of property will far outweigh any benefit survivors would see from decreased population.

Its not "overpopulated". Singapore is much denser than Haiti and have virtually no farm land. Why aren't they starving? They don't have a massively corrupt government that is destroying the free market.

If you have a properly functioning free market, people are an asset, not a drain.

Its as dumb to blame Haitians for their government, as it is to applaud Singaporeans for theirs. 99.99% Individuals generally don't have a hand in it. The blame (or applaud) lies at the feet of government.

The majority of people everywhere don't know enough about politics to actually make informed decisions at the voting booth.

You can't get rich if you keep getting mugged, and the mugger also follows you around and cripples your ability to make money.

You're still showing massive naivety and arrogance about how the world works and what separates the average American from the average Haitian.

[hellbilly]

Thanks for the nod Sniper.

fatcat- it's simple. Toss out Singapore, India, Zimbabwe for a second and focus on the other half of the island - Dominican Republic. Same island, same resources, different culture, different gov., different outcome.

Haiti has a population where half the people are illiterate. There are more people in Haiti, less space than DR. Haitians earn about a sixth of the amount those who live in DR do. If DR managed to overcome the struggle, and side step devastating their natural resources along the way, what has kept Haiti from achieving the same? You mentioned riots as activism for change, what have the riots won from the Haitian gov. that the individuals there couldn't manage for themselves?

I am not blaming the devastation on the citizens entirely (everyone knows the truth, what Pat Robertson said), but I am blaming the citizens for being completely fucking backwards, culturally speaking, in a modern world.

You reply as if I have a hatred for these people - I don't. I don't have any particular love for them either. Is it insensitive for me to say this, particularly in the aftermath of this latest disaster? You bet, just as it is insensitive for me to say that I don't care about being called insensitive. There are problems worldwide, not all can be corrected. Pitching in is a nice idea, nicer when it begins with the people who will receive what's being pitched.

Back to DR, that country doesn't especially like the idea of having a lot of Haitian immigrants. Their own neighbor doesn't want them. Whether by fault of the gov., voodoo, bad luck - whatever, many of them are simply undesirable, anywhere (except Senegal in a recent headline, which I think is great). The fact that collectively (yes, I went there) they are so fucking helpless is what compassionate people need to investigate as opposed to how much money needs to be thrown at their problems. You dodge that concept in each of your replies in favor of continuing your focus on me and my lowdown hatin' ways, or making comparisons to how other countries have succeeded after people managed to rise above living in shanties. The people of Haiti have had ample time to  organize grassroots efforts to place their government in a position weak of power in order to further the gain and opportunity of the average citizen whether by peaceful tactics or by force (get their shit together).