What to do about post-quake Haiti?

[fatcat]

OMG YOUR LOGIC IS OBVIOUSLY SUPERIOR THEN MINE NOW YOU CAN GO MASTURBATE TO IT

Dude you can't try to play the smart, chop busting corrector, and the spazzy forum troll at the same time.

where's your commitment?

pick a role and stick with it

[ForumTroll]

OMG YOUR LOGIC IS OBVIOUSLY SUPERIOR THEN MINE NOW YOU CAN GO MASTURBATE TO IT

Dude you can't try to play the smart, chop busting corrector, and the spazzy forum troll at the same time.

where's your commitment?

pick a role and stick with it

WHY DONT YOU GO GET LAID OR SOMETHING

[One two three]

If you choose to live in shanties built on a hillside in a quake zone..

I don't feel cold-hearted about the victims.. not exactly. But I have had some thoughts about the disaster and the millions of aid (and temporary sorrow) that will be doled out to rebuild... shanties on a hillside in a quake zone?

What has Haiti contributed to modern society? What does it offer in exchange for being rebuilt by others?

That's why people call libertarians selfish, heartless, assholes.  Brilliant.  "Fuck them dumb folks.  Got what was coming to em."  They don't deserve help b/c they've contributed nothing to the global community that I can quantify."

 I hope most others in the liberty movement don't feel the same way you do.

It is better then Obama though.  He said, I will take 100,000,000 from Americans and give it to the powerful people of Haiti so that they can use this crisis to become more powerful.  If they Americans don't like this, they will go to jail.  And then he said that was just the first payment to the power elites in Haiti and more will come at the expensive of Americans, their children and future generations.

Yeah, America is in the worst shape it has been in since the 70s and Obama is thinking of ways to make things worse for us.  Thank you Obama.

[hellbilly]

USA has FUCKED Haiti by artificially inflating food prices through ethanol subsidy.

And what is the popular free market approach when someone manipulates a market in a way that is not in your favor? "Do something different to keep your business profitable and retain it's competitive edge."

It only takes a glimpse at "Haiti" to see that "it" has fucked itself in many more ways than the US has.

You act as if people live in shanties because their dumb. Shanties are a sign of development. Look at India now and compare it to 20 years ago. Where there where shanty towns there are now skyscrapers.

So what has "India" done to better "itself" that "Haiti" is unable to do? I don't have any position on why people choose to live in a shanty, perhaps that's what they prefer, so I haven't "acted as if" anything at all.

this is no accident

Anyway, you 're taking an unnecessarily trader view of things.

Whats in it for you? Nothing. Except you get to feel good that you helped someone who's had their house destroyed and possibly family members killed.

Also whats this "what has Haiti contributed to the world" bullshit. Sounds like collectivist tripe to me.

The term "collectivist" is tossed around far too often. You just referred to "India" and it's progress in the same sense that I referred to "Haiti" and it's failures. Collectivism is a two way street and if it can be applied to politicians and cops without having to provide a disclaimer each time, then it should also be able to be applied to all groups just the same. We're all big boys and girls here and I think the message is pretty clear.

Helping those who need it is always a good thing. It provides an opportunity for those in need to get their shit together and start anew. Unfortunately, assistance to global crisis often enables the victims to continue as they were. It sets a precedence for a sort of global welfare.

There are individuals who do business with some Hatian individuals "Haiti" doesn't do shit, Hatian individuals do. If you haven't done any business with Hatian individuals, then of course Haiti hasn't contributed anything to you specifically, but the same can be said for hundreds of other countries.

Some people will have built their whole lively hoods on trade with Haiti. Some people won't have.

Same reply on this using "India" as an example. Also, anyone in any type of business should have a solid contingency plan in place.

On to part two.. but please, can we keep the replies at a manageable length?

[hellbilly]

also acting as if living in Shanties means you shouldn't care they got took out by an earthquake is dumb.



If the presidential Palace can get knocked down, average wage Hatians have no chance.

Its simple game theory, these people didn't do anything wrong they just got bad fortune.

Do you spend an unnecessarily high amount of your small Hatian income on having a earthquake proof house, or do you spend it on food, clothes, vehicles, tools etc.

The way you're talking about it, the only Hatians who didn't fuck up, where neurotically obsessed people who spent all their money on building an earth quake proof house, even though thats a really bad idea since major earthquakes are so rare.

You might aswell say people in 9/11 fucked up by not having a private hire helicopter on the roof at all times.

Again, I'm not "acting as if" anything.

San Francisco, Japan.. earthquake prone. People live where and how they want to and I don't judge anyone based on that. I also don't gush tears or feign horror, shock, and sadness if a trailer in tornado alley gets swept away, or if a beach house gets flooded on a coast, or if a shanty collapses when an earthquake hits.

[fatcat]

OMG YOUR LOGIC IS OBVIOUSLY SUPERIOR THEN MINE NOW YOU CAN GO MASTURBATE TO IT

Dude you can't try to play the smart, chop busting corrector, and the spazzy forum troll at the same time.

where's your commitment?

pick a role and stick with it

WHY DONT YOU GO GET LAID OR SOMETHING

I can't get a boner cuz u put my self esteem down too much

[BobRobertson]

The US government is sending an aircraft carrier fleet to "help".

Nothing would help Haiti more than a free market revolution. Of course, the US government would immediately land the marines and "solve" that problem by installing another friendly dictator.

[theCelestrian]

On to part two.. but please, can we keep the replies at a manageable length?

I'll do my best but make no promises.

I'll try to distill first, then we can talk about my points you wish elaboration/take issue with.

• Compassion is good.  Even if someone did or did not 'have it coming,' I think at some level empathy helps.  Those who choose to donate to funds / organizations to provide relief, more power to you.  Those who don't - that's totally acceptable too: humanitarian aid isn't humanitarian when the action is not 100% voluntary.
  
  
• Government diversion of resources as a result of previous guilt is bad.  The "US" may have fucked "Haiti" by the spike in ethanol prices, but it doesn't make it:
  
  
  • Morally acceptable to divert tax dollars to Haiti
    
    
  • Imply that any individual or group of individuals owes "haiti" recompense. (not saying anyone has claimed this, just pre-emptively calling it out)
    
    

Manageable?

[hellbilly]

If you choose to live in shanties built on a hillside in a quake zone..

I don't feel cold-hearted about the victims.. not exactly. But I have had some thoughts about the disaster and the millions of aid (and temporary sorrow) that will be doled out to rebuild... shanties on a hillside in a quake zone?

What has Haiti contributed to modern society? What does it offer in exchange for being rebuilt by others?

That's why people call libertarians selfish, heartless, assholes.  Brilliant.  "Fuck them dumb folks.  Got what was coming to em."  They don't deserve help b/c they've contributed nothing to the global community that I can quantify."

 I hope most others in the liberty movement don't feel the same way you do.

I knew by posting this that I'd be putting myself out for criticism, and that's a fair critique. But your summary isn't what I'm saying.

Is it wise to continue enabling the weak? Perhaps better to support them, but have them wake up and become responsible for themselves?

Haiti for the most part resembled a shitpile before the quake, no one seemed to care. So the Feel Good Brigade gathers it's ranks, throws billions of dollars of support (that no country seems to have) to bail out a country whose citizens still throw their shit out the window and into the street. No amount of international market manipulation, coups, corrupt leadership, etc. can be held as the root cause of individuals living like savages. (Just a reminder- if living like savages is what people prefer, then I won't stop anyone from fulfilling that wish.)

[AL the Inconspicuous]

If I was God (the fictional character), I would make earthquakes like this happen every week or so in every capital city of every government on earth that ranks in the bottom two-thirds of the Economic Freedom Index and shows no signs of ever getting a clue... 

[hellbilly]

On to part two.. but please, can we keep the replies at a manageable length?

I'll do my best but make no promises.

I'll try to distill first, then we can talk about my points you wish elaboration/take issue with.

• Compassion is good.  Even if someone did or did not 'have it coming,' I think at some level empathy helps.  Those who choose to donate to funds / organizations to provide relief, more power to you.  Those who don't - that's totally acceptable too: humanitarian aid isn't humanitarian when the action is not 100% voluntary.
  
  
• Government diversion of resources as a result of previous guilt is bad.  The "US" may have fucked "Haiti" by the spike in ethanol prices, but it doesn't make it:
  
  
  • Morally acceptable to divert tax dollars to Haiti
    
    
  • Imply that any individual or group of individuals owes "haiti" recompense. (not saying anyone has claimed this, just pre-emptively calling it out)
    
    

Manageable?

Manageable? Entirely.

That was for fatcat but you and he share that fondness for thoroughness

I agree with all items in your lists. My commentary is more from a social angle than a review of political misdeeds that Haiti may have suffered from. But I look forward to learning more from that path of discussion in this topic.

How many people remember much about any past natural disaster? The tsunami a few years ago for example, that was a tearjerker for a month or so, made all the headlines, people were eager to assist. What happened to all the rebuilding projects, all the money?

It seems to me to be insincere when people spontaneously become concerned with their fellow man, burdened with troubles long before whatever makes the headlines. It's an excuse for hand holding, and wringing, for Hollywood to perform a special gig for the plain folk who in the end will feel more complete as an individual for having their emotions played.

But shit.. I'm not saying to drop a load of shovels from a helicopter and tell them to dig themselves out. There's the bigger picture to consider and no one seems to notice.

[fatcat]

USA has FUCKED Haiti by artificially inflating food prices through ethanol subsidy.

And what is the popular free market approach when someone manipulates a market in a way that is not in your favor? "Do something different to keep your business profitable and retain it's competitive edge."

It only takes a glimpse at "Haiti" to see that "it" has fucked itself in many more ways than the US has.

The whole world was effected by US ethanol subsidies (along with some other converging factors),

What made it fuck Haiti was that it was already fragile economic state, combined with increases in fuel prices at the time, mass unemployment and decrease in worldwide rice exports.

Lots of people where right on the edge of being able to afford food when the food prices started rocketing.

There was widespread rioting when the food shortage kicked in. When people start rioting the free market rules go out the window (not that Haiti has a particularly free market).

You know I don't support taxation, so this isn't about justifying that. these people are/were eating mud. None of us on this board have any idea how bad life like that is.

At a certain point you have to just pitch in and help  even if its just a temp fix to relieve some of the suffering.

Obviously USA isn't to blame for Haitis fucked up economic situation, but if we were talking about why USA (gov) might owe Haiti (people) some help, the hand USA (gov) had in the 2008 food shortage would be a good one.

You act as if people live in shanties because their dumb. Shanties are a sign of development. Look at India now and compare it to 20 years ago. Where there where shanty towns there are now skyscrapers.

So what has "India" done to better "itself" that "Haiti" is unable to do? I don't have any position on why people choose to live in a shanty, perhaps that's what they prefer, so I haven't "acted as if" anything at all.

You said "If you choose to live in shanties built on a hillside in a quake zone.."

Wasn't the implied sentence, "If you choose to live in shanties built on a hillside in a quake zone.. then its not a surprise if your house gets knocked down by a earthquake"?

What I was saying is that they live in shanties for very good reasons, the way you say it you made it sound as if its a stupid move of all the people living in shanties because earthquakes knock them down easily.

When the Yellowstone Caldera finally goes, are you not going to help anyone cause they should've built a volcano proof house?

Shanties aren't a failure or a sign of poverty (even though the people are a poor), its a mid point that happens when you have rapid urbanization.

It would be fucking ridiculous for a poor Hatian living in a city not to live in a Shanty just because they're not earthquake proof. Shanties are the cheapest way for poor people to live in or near cities. And cities are the best places to find work.

The alternatives for most Haitians is subsidence farming. Which is fucking shit.

66% of Haitians work at farming (mainly subsidence), but it only makes up 30% of GDP.

You can see why Shanties are so important for poor people.

So what has "India" done to better "itself" that "Haiti" is unable to do?

The indian government released enough control to let people better their own lives.

[theCelestrian]

Manageable? Entirely.

Awesome.

That was for fatcat but you and he share that fondness for thoroughness

Understandable.  I've noticed that too, hopefully we'll never had a endurance battle where fatcat and I start disagreeing with each others posts.  I can see the potential for great and terrible things there.

I agree with all items in your lists. My commentary is more from a social angle than a review of political misdeeds that Haiti may have suffered from. But I look forward to learning more from that path of discussion in this topic.

Fair.

How many people remember much about any past natural disaster? The tsunami a few years ago for example, that was a tearjerker for a month or so, made all the headlines, people were eager to assist. What happened to all the rebuilding projects, all the money?

Excellent question. Same Q's could also be made about New Orleans post-Katrina.  The city is still not in a state of full recovery, what happened to all the political outrage / money / assistance there?

I don't have an answer.

It seems to me to be insincere when people spontaneously become concerned with their fellow man, burdened with troubles long before whatever makes the headlines.

Conceded.

I think I understand the position/point you are trying to make a little better, or I am reading a different context that I find be very compelling; the regular application of the compassion that we as liberty-minded individuals are so quick to flout.   My father terms it, "actively caring."

To your point, I am also 100% guilty of this. Three days ago the last time I even thought about Haiti was when I heard Gregg Proops describe Mississippi as, "a little slice of haiti right on our own shores," in one of his stand-ups a friend of mine wanted me to listen to-and now here I am talking about "compassion is good."

It's an excuse for hand holding, and wringing, for Hollywood to perform a special gig for the plain folk who in the end will feel more complete as an individual for having their emotions played.

Understandable, and it's an interesting human dynamic - we often take symbolic victories/defeats as real ones.  In this case, that special gig where a fraction of the money actually gets in the hands of the individuals the drive/gig is supposed to benefit.  By all objective terms could be considered a "failure" based upon the gross earnings, but that axiom, "it's the thought that counts," seems play very large in a lot of individual's consciousness.

But shit.. I'm not saying to drop a load of shovels from a helicopter and tell them to dig themselves out. There's the bigger picture to consider and no one seems to notice.

I would be interested if you would be willing to more explicitly delineate that "bigger picture," as perhaps in my own ignorance I could either not be seeing it, or seeing a different picture than the one you intend to analyze.

[davann]

It is better then Obama though.  He said, I will take 100,000,000 from Americans and give it to the powerful people of Haiti so that they can use this crisis to become more powerful.  If they Americans don't like this, they will go to jail.  And then he said that was just the first payment to the power elites in Haiti and more will come at the expensive of Americans, their children and future generations.

Yeah, America is in the worst shape it has been in since the 70s and Obama is thinking of ways to make things worse for us.  Thank you Obama.

See this was why I was avoiding MSM over the last day or two. I knew an unconstiitonal promise of aid would be coming.

Personally, I don't know anyone from Haiti but I do know a nice family up the road that are out of work and are about to get foreclosed on. Lets keep our eye on the ball here.

[ChristianAnarchist]

I donated money to the Salvation Army.  They are about the only charity I trust to actually spend most of the money on helping people...

I suggest others do the same...