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Author Topic: What if we are wrong?  (Read 15893 times)

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davann

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Re: What if we are wrong?
« Reply #45 on: March 01, 2010, 07:58:02 PM »


If you can explain how being apathetic and ineffectual constitutes the "high road," have at it.  

Living your life the best way you see fit as long as it does involve hurting others and hoping your neighbors see how happy you are and decide to follow your fine example. The High Road.

Living your life the best way you see fit and believing it is the absolutely right way so much that you advocate your neighbors to follow your example. The Low Road.

The High Road is really the only one that works. Just as we get pissed when tyranny is advocated to us, they get pissed when freedom and personal responsibility is advocated to them.
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Demon440

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Re: What if we are wrong?
« Reply #46 on: March 01, 2010, 10:18:42 PM »

Quote
Which person would you like to be?

A. Happy to go about life consuming things like TVs, fancy cars, sports and McMansions while blissfully unaware or unconcerned the government is holding the chains of captivity that are wrapped around your neck.

B. A pissed off libertarian that knows full well the weight of those chains while also completely aware there ain't shit you can do about it.

I say leave 'em alone. We all can be pissed enough for 'em. No need to ruin their day.

interesting thought. Do you ever talk about the philosophy of liberty to anyone outside of the internet forums? Was this the way you always were or did your attitude change to this over time?
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Re: What if we are wrong?
« Reply #47 on: March 01, 2010, 10:32:27 PM »

I'd have to agree that the vast majority of the world's population are slaves. It is just a kinder and gentler form then the previous versions. In fact, Western society slaves are over all happy and content. Which is why they should be left alone and not bothered with libertarianism.

Which person would you like to be?

A. Happy to go about life consuming things like TVs, fancy cars, sports and McMansions while blissfully unaware or unconcerned the government is holding the chains of captivity that are wrapped around your neck.

B. A pissed off libertarian that knows full well the weight of those chains while also completely aware there ain't shit you can do about it.

I say leave 'em alone. We all can be pissed enough for 'em. No need to ruin their day.

The problem with A is that it's not lasting, it's failing right before our eyes. And it's leaving the Earth scarred beyond human sustainability. I can't live with that thought weighing on my mind. Maybe you can, but I have two nieces and a nephew and I will not stand by in the twilight years of my life to see them or their children suffer. If I have to raze the current system to the ground, then I will. Luxuries can be replaced, human lives cannot.
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TimeLady Victorious

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Re: What if we are wrong?
« Reply #48 on: March 02, 2010, 12:34:34 AM »

There weren't any regulations in place during the Gilded Age, and factories were hellholes.

Also, this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Army_beef_scandal

The US Army beef scandal shows that the US Federal government did a poor job of negotiating food for its "employees". You should note that they are and were a monopoly.

Remember that the "helllhole" factories were inundated with people looking for opportunities. They might have felt that the opportunity to work in that factory was better than the alternatives. Nobody was physically forced to work in those "hellholes". They were free to seek better opportunities elsewhere.

Further, "weren't any regulations" is false. Because of government intervention in industries, there were limits to competition that would otherwise have produced more alternatives.


So you're telling me the government forced the factories to be shit? I don't buy that for a second.

The companies involved with the embalmed beef scandal weren't forced to stuff poison in tins and sell it to the government. They could have stuffed meat that wasn't poison in tins.

No one forced them to do it.

And, as for the factories, the factories were hellholes and that's what gave rise to the labor movement, which forced the factory owners to stop treating employees like shit.
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davann

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Re: What if we are wrong?
« Reply #49 on: March 02, 2010, 12:49:49 AM »

Quote
Which person would you like to be?

A. Happy to go about life consuming things like TVs, fancy cars, sports and McMansions while blissfully unaware or unconcerned the government is holding the chains of captivity that are wrapped around your neck.

B. A pissed off libertarian that knows full well the weight of those chains while also completely aware there ain't shit you can do about it.

I say leave 'em alone. We all can be pissed enough for 'em. No need to ruin their day.

interesting thought. Do you ever talk about the philosophy of liberty to anyone outside of the internet forums? Was this the way you always were or did your attitude change to this over time?

Believe it or not just up until recently I was gun ho. Kinda like Ian. Every thing black and white. John Shaw, along with a few others here, showed me another way.Live your life pursuing as much freedom you can handle and let others do what they want. That is what we want from them so it only seems right. Plus, the constant fighting or advocating gets tiring, is mostly pointless and is off putting.

It takes a lot of faith in the inherent goodness of mankind to believe all will right itself on it own. But coming from that kind of place is a lot more healthy than say a socialist outlook that at it's base is going on the assumption man kind sucks so bad it needs to be centrally managed.
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Harry Tuttle

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Re: What if we are wrong?
« Reply #50 on: March 02, 2010, 12:55:01 AM »

So you're telling me the government forced the factories to be shit? I don't buy that for a second.

The companies involved with the embalmed beef scandal weren't forced to stuff poison in tins and sell it to the government. They could have stuffed meat that wasn't poison in tins.

No one forced them to do it.

No. I'm saying that they were unethical and the government set themselves up to be taken advantage of this way. That shit won't fly in a free market.

Quote
And, as for the factories, the factories were hellholes and that's what gave rise to the labor movement, which forced the factory owners to stop treating employees like shit.

Government gave too much power to some companies, limiting choices. It made the problem worse. It is true that the labor movement helped end the shittiness, but more choices would have evolved in a more free market.
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davann

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Re: What if we are wrong?
« Reply #51 on: March 02, 2010, 12:57:30 AM »

If I have to raze the current system to the ground, then I will. Luxuries can be replaced, human lives cannot.

Do you really think the current system could be razed without thousands of lives lost and millions of lives disrupted or displaced? Sounds like you are caught in a catch 22.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2010, 12:59:14 AM by davann »
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TimeLady Victorious

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Re: What if we are wrong?
« Reply #52 on: March 02, 2010, 01:08:57 AM »

Quote
No. I'm saying that they were unethical and the government set themselves up to be taken advantage of this way. That shit won't fly in a free market.

What makes you so sure there won't be any unethical corporations in a free market? (which, face it, the USA is among the most economically free countries on Earth, we've got it here)
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Re: What if we are wrong?
« Reply #53 on: March 02, 2010, 07:13:08 AM »

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No. I'm saying that they were unethical and the government set themselves up to be taken advantage of this way. That shit won't fly in a free market.

What makes you so sure there won't be any unethical corporations in a free market? (which, face it, the USA is among the most economically free countries on Earth, we've got it here)

no sane person would say there wouldn't be.  A free market is much more preferable than the unethical monpoly that is the government, though. 
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TimeLady Victorious

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Re: What if we are wrong?
« Reply #54 on: March 02, 2010, 09:12:10 AM »

Quote
No. I'm saying that they were unethical and the government set themselves up to be taken advantage of this way. That shit won't fly in a free market.

What makes you so sure there won't be any unethical corporations in a free market? (which, face it, the USA is among the most economically free countries on Earth, we've got it here)

no sane person would say there wouldn't be.  A free market is much more preferable than the unethical monpoly that is the government, though. 

except a corporation or a group of corporations forming a cartel could easily get the same amount of power a de facto government could have.

and then use guns to make sure you couldn't leave.
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Re: What if we are wrong?
« Reply #55 on: March 02, 2010, 10:10:02 AM »

If I have to raze the current system to the ground, then I will. Luxuries can be replaced, human lives cannot.

Do you really think the current system could be razed without thousands of lives lost and millions of lives disrupted or displaced? Sounds like you are caught in a catch 22.

Not at all. If they die they died at least for a good reason. Not because they were bad people, but because the system itself was the thing prolonging their existence, an existence that would have never been. I'm not trying to be cold to the harm such a disruption would cause, but I am being honest that it will not last forever and there's no good way out however you consider it.
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blackie

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Re: What if we are wrong?
« Reply #56 on: March 02, 2010, 10:19:08 AM »

http://xahlee.org/p/um/um-s23.html

179. It would be better to dump the whole stinking system and take the consequences.
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NotYourSlave

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Re: What if we are wrong?
« Reply #57 on: March 02, 2010, 10:21:07 AM »

Quote
No. I'm saying that they were unethical and the government set themselves up to be taken advantage of this way. That shit won't fly in a free market.

What makes you so sure there won't be any unethical corporations in a free market? (which, face it, the USA is among the most economically free countries on Earth, we've got it here)

as easily as the monopoly we have now?  How would that work exactly?

no sane person would say there wouldn't be.  A free market is much more preferable than the unethical monpoly that is the government, though. 

except a corporation or a group of corporations forming a cartel could easily get the same amount of power a de facto government could have.

and then use guns to make sure you couldn't leave.
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Re: What if we are wrong?
« Reply #58 on: March 02, 2010, 12:11:10 PM »

http://xahlee.org/p/um/um-s23.html

179. It would be better to dump the whole stinking system and take the consequences.

As much as I dislike the Unabomber and his anti-technology stance, there is a bit of truth to his stance in that there's an over-reliance on a single technological paradigm to 'save' the world. I suspect if there was a true free market the current build up of electronics and industrial technology would have never happened, and that other fields such as biotechnology and genetics would have taken its place in the market (for everyone to use). Especially the former as many parts of industrial technology is very poor at utilizing many natural energy sources (hydrochemicals, solar, and etc) compared to their biological analogs.
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Harry Tuttle

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Re: What if we are wrong?
« Reply #59 on: March 02, 2010, 03:55:02 PM »

except a corporation or a group of corporations forming a cartel could easily get the same amount of power a de facto government could have.

and then use guns to make sure you couldn't leave.

I don't think it would be "easily" as you seem to think. It would be very hard for groups of corporations to get that kind of power. What government has going for it is the "veil of legitimacy" that makes people accept them in spite of the continued malfeasance. If Google takes up arms against us, most people would morally agree that fighting them makes sense. Cartels don't tend to have the power people expect them to get, except when married to government. If you can point out an exception in real life I would be interested in hearing it.

I do not fear a market monopoly because nobody can point out an example of one ever existing. I fear governments because they are all around us now and causing a proper mess.
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