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Demon440

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What if we are wrong?
« on: February 28, 2010, 12:11:51 AM »

What if people really do need to be centrally managed and controlled? What if all human kind is not ready for true liberty? What if I'm wrong about the philosophy of libertarianism or voluntaryism? If I were wrong on a practical level but not a moral one, would I still promote liberty? Would you?
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ForumTroll

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Re: What if we are wrong?
« Reply #1 on: February 28, 2010, 12:53:12 AM »

That's pretty obvious if you really stand back and take a look at human history. That's why I think educating random people is pointless. Let the smart ones who figure it out on their own band together and escape. This is less than 1% of the population.
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The ghost of a ghost of a ghost

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Re: What if we are wrong?
« Reply #2 on: February 28, 2010, 12:58:44 AM »

Where do you go.  Please don't say New Hampshire.
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atomiccat

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Re: What if we are wrong?
« Reply #3 on: February 28, 2010, 01:20:27 AM »

If freedom is wrong, then I don't want to be right.

davann

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Re: What if we are wrong?
« Reply #4 on: February 28, 2010, 02:55:03 AM »

Right now people are idiots. They need a central authority. It is wrong on the practical and moral level. Stop trying to spread it and just live and let live. Maybe some day they will kind enough to follow the example. Don't get your hopes up because they are idiots.
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TimeLady Victorious

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Re: What if we are wrong?
« Reply #5 on: February 28, 2010, 03:09:29 AM »

That's pretty obvious if you really stand back and take a look at human history. That's why I think educating random people is pointless. Let the smart ones who figure it out on their own band together and escape. This is less than 1% of the population.

Where do you go.  Please don't say New Hampshire.

I say we all band together and homestead one of the sub-Antarctic islands held by New Zealand.

The problem is, most of the habitable ones are nature reserves held in trust by UNESCO. So good luck with that :(
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AL the Inconspicuous

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Re: What if we are wrong?
« Reply #6 on: February 28, 2010, 03:30:04 AM »

That's the beautiful thing about voluntary emergence-driven societies: if we are wrong we simply fail and no one else gets hurt.  We're not holding a gun to anyone's head and forcing them to part with their beloved Mommy Government, we simply want to opt out with our own lives and properties, and in most cases we're willing to move to another location in order to make it happen.  (Contrast that with the socialists, who can't even make a three-hippie commune work right, but want to impose their ideas on vast nations by force!)  The only thing we ask of other governments is to stop violating our rights and let us go!

Free market capitalism (in all its anarchist and minarchist variations) is based on the rock-solid scientific theory that personal and economic freedom results in a long-term competitive advantage for a society, in terms of materialistic gain as well as quality of life, for rich and poor alike.  We will inevitably start with small self-selected local experiments (seasteading, FIP, FSP, municipal secession in New Hampshire, etc) and those experiments will grow if they are successful.  There will be many initial challenges as those enclaves of liberty get established, un-occupied and un-blockaded by the surrounding governments, and bootstrap their economy; but the advantages should become very apparent after several decades.

Social evolution is potentially not much different from any other emergent system, from planetary evolution to chemical, biological, and technological.  Intergovernmental competition is what keeps government power in check: barring a world-wide government monopoly (the sum of all my fears!), the places where the government is least intrusive will benefit from an inflow of brains and capital, and they will grow, acquire more land, build more seasteads (or someday spacesteads), etc.  No matter how socialist a government is, it can't function for long if all its people see greener pastures elsewhere: it must either become as tyrannical as North Korea (which is much more difficult in the 21st century), reform before it collapses, or reform when it has no choice as it discovers it has no more competent people to tax!
« Last Edit: February 28, 2010, 03:33:14 AM by Alex Libman »
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AL the Inconspicuous

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Re: What if we are wrong?
« Reply #7 on: February 28, 2010, 05:33:24 AM »

It may not be stupid in practice if done right: entryist minarchism state-wide supporting more focused private land / municipal secession movements on a local level.

Furthermore, FSP isn't just about achieving change but also about building a community for libertarians to hang out, experiment with various ideas, start businesses / charities, train in militias, establish homeschooling networks, etc, etc, etc.  Even if it doesn't achieve any change what-so-ever, FSP can still be successful as a foundation of the libertarian culture for some yet-unseen future endeavor.

Activism, agorism, politics, entrepreneurship, education, militias, community, and culture are all integral to our cause!
« Last Edit: February 28, 2010, 05:35:47 AM by Alex Libman »
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ForumTroll

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Re: What if we are wrong?
« Reply #8 on: February 28, 2010, 09:16:15 AM »

Where do you go.  Please don't say New Hampshire.

The problem with NH is that you cannot possibly LIVE like you're free because of the way the base of government is set up. Even if you successfully control a town government and stop enforcing victimless crime laws at the local level and abate propety taxes, there's still the State cops.

I think in 10 years the ones that have moved will have pretty much given up. Maybe they'll be smart enough to get together to take over the government of a low population western US county. Which is about the only chance of freedom we have in this country. To have Anarchy, we must have Minarchy...
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Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith)

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Re: What if we are wrong?
« Reply #9 on: February 28, 2010, 01:54:35 PM »

Where do you go.  Please don't say New Hampshire.

The problem with NH is that you cannot possibly LIVE like you're free because of the way the base of government is set up. Even if you successfully control a town government and stop enforcing victimless crime laws at the local level and abate propety taxes, there's still the State cops.

I think in 10 years the ones that have moved will have pretty much given up. Maybe they'll be smart enough to get together to take over the government of a low population western US county. Which is about the only chance of freedom we have in this country. To have Anarchy, we must have Minarchy...
Are there a lot of State Cops in NH?  In CA the only state police anyone sees are the Highway Patrol, and they only pull people over on the freeways.
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"Do not throw rocks at people with guns." —Hastings' Third Law
"Income tax returns are the most imaginative fiction being written today." —Herman Wouk 

"If you want total security, go to prison. There you're fed, clothed, given medical care and so on. The only thing lacking... is freedom." - Dwight D. Eisenhower

digitalfour

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Re: What if we are wrong?
« Reply #10 on: February 28, 2010, 01:57:00 PM »

That's why I think educating random people is pointless. Let the smart ones who figure it out on their own band together and escape. This is less than 1% of the population.

Escape to where? You'd have to go somewhere with no people or else you still need to educate people.
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ForumTroll

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Re: What if we are wrong?
« Reply #11 on: February 28, 2010, 02:31:40 PM »

That's why I think educating random people is pointless. Let the smart ones who figure it out on their own band together and escape. This is less than 1% of the population.

Escape to where? You'd have to go somewhere with no people or else you still need to educate people.

You only have to outvote them.
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Bill Brasky

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Re: What if we are wrong?
« Reply #12 on: February 28, 2010, 04:10:22 PM »

Where do you go.  Please don't say New Hampshire.

The problem with NH is that you cannot possibly LIVE like you're free because of the way the base of government is set up. Even if you successfully control a town government and stop enforcing victimless crime laws at the local level and abate propety taxes, there's still the State cops.

I think in 10 years the ones that have moved will have pretty much given up. Maybe they'll be smart enough to get together to take over the government of a low population western US county. Which is about the only chance of freedom we have in this country. To have Anarchy, we must have Minarchy...
Are there a lot of State Cops in NH?  In CA the only state police anyone sees are the Highway Patrol, and they only pull people over on the freeways.

State Police usually show up for the big events like murder, and policing state highways because they have legitimate jurisdiction there.  Stuff on city and town level are handled by locals, and in some cases Sheriff departments like in LA County share jurisdiction with City, like the LAPD.  Staties don't involve themselves in an area with structured law enforcement unless requested.  California is an oddball in the traditional state police design, their purpose (according to Wiki) was to provide security for state dignitaries and do some law enforcement in unincorporated areas, and eventually merged with the CHP.  Together they still only have 500 officers. 

Comparatively, PA has 4500 troopers, and get very involved with small-town situations, again like murder and other stuff that needs more professional forensics support where the locals can't handle the technicalities. 

NH only has about 300 troopers, but has some rules about where it patrols - mostly small towns that don't have much of a police force, and they do highway patrol stuff. 

Each state agency has its own history and structure, but can always be counted on to be more professional and elite, and their training and tactics are far superior to the normal locals.  The size doesn't matter much because they always have special-purpose ad-hoc units that will organize in special situations and will sometimes use Federal Marshals in taskforces if warranted, which can get pretty serious in short order.   

Often when there are wide discrepancies in these numbers, there are other agencies that perform the duties and balance out the numbers.  Like sheriffs agencies and their deputy sheriffs.  In Pennsylvania, sheriffs deputies don't really patrol.  You almost never see a sheriffs car, unless they're serving a warrant or escorting prison inmates.  In states with less State Troopers, sheriffs have more prevalence.  Here, the sheriffs are almost symbolic and the deputies are nearly a joke, mostly working the courthouses like goons.  In NH, it says the High Sheriff is the top law enforcement position in the state, and each county has one, so it seems the sheriffs and deputies take the place of traditional state police functions.  California seems to follow the same structure with county sheriffs and deputies being regional support, rather than state cops- who are more specialized to certain duties and have state-wide jurisdiction. 
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Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith)

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Re: What if we are wrong?
« Reply #13 on: February 28, 2010, 04:22:41 PM »

So are the Staties patrolling the streets like a typical cop might?  In CA it's very common to see Sheriffs and many cities contract the County Sheriff for their city police department, but you'd never see a State cop patrolling the city streets.  Hell last night I must have counted 8 SDPD cars and 3 Sheriff cars on the same road (I live a couple blocks from the University).

I don't think I'd be very happy if I had to deal with CHP patrolling those streets as well.
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"Do not throw rocks at people with guns." —Hastings' Third Law
"Income tax returns are the most imaginative fiction being written today." —Herman Wouk 

"If you want total security, go to prison. There you're fed, clothed, given medical care and so on. The only thing lacking... is freedom." - Dwight D. Eisenhower

NotYourSlave

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Re: What if we are wrong?
« Reply #14 on: February 28, 2010, 04:32:52 PM »

What if people really do need to be centrally managed and controlled? What if all human kind is not ready for true liberty? What if I'm wrong about the philosophy of libertarianism or voluntaryism? If I were wrong on a practical level but not a moral one, would I still promote liberty? Would you?

Liberty means you can choose to be centrally managed and controlled.  However, you cannot force me to be centrally managed or controlled.  Liberty is never wrong.
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