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Author Topic: want to fund government without any "stealing" so gov can build a fire station ?  (Read 10668 times)

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ReasonableVoice

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Sound Premise = There should be no tax on people ( no individual income tax, etc )
            and regardless of what some courts say, corporations are not people.

So then . . .

Business opportunities in a society belong to "the people" of society.

Tax on corporations is simply the purchase of business opportunity from the people.
( And the tax is to be used FOR the people)

For a corporation to do business without paying for the opportunity would be stealing from the people

Defensive force against a corporation for stealing (not paying tax) would not violate NAP (Non Aggression Principle )



PS: Too many Libertarians/Anarchists see the word "State" and then
           jump off the deep end without even knowing how to swim.
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dalebert

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How are corporations not people?

ReasonableVoice

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How are corporations not people?

Good question.
And that's sort of like asking "How is a State not people?" :-0)

Does the State have inalienable rights? No.
Why ? The State is a legal fiction.

But to answer more directly . . .
a corporation is a legal fiction, people are not.

A "corporation" is like a "private government".

Corporations are legal fictions because corporations
are created by a "public government (a State)"

And since the State that creates the corporations does not have inalienable rights,
then its offspring(corporations) cannot inherit them.

axiom: You cannot pass on(transfer) that which you never received.



PS:
government is a legal fiction under Common Law
a corporation is a legal fiction under government law
« Last Edit: October 25, 2014, 06:52:54 PM by ReasonableVoice »
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dalebert

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When you write in gigantic text, it's like you're screaming for attention. It's kinda like writing in all-caps.

ReasonableVoice

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When you write in gigantic text, it's like you're screaming for attention. It's kinda like writing in all-caps.

Sorry. My vision is not good so I make it bigger to save on eye strain.
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dalebert

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Walmart has reading glasses for like $2.

ReasonableVoice

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Walmart has reading glasses for like $2.

I appreciate the advice, but when one already requires prescription lenses (as I do)
then switching to non-prescription reading glasses only makes larger blurry objects :-0)
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SeanD

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I still don't agree with your premise that a corporation not paying taxes is stealing and that using force against them is not against the NAP.
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dalebert

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At its core, a corporation is just people working together for common goals. As they exist now, they make deals with government for special benefits and therein lies the problem. In a stateless society, they are just people doing stuff together. They have no more rights than individuals and no fewer.

ReasonableVoice

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I still don't agree with your premise that a corporation not paying taxes is stealing and that using force against them is not against the NAP.

You presented no basis for disagreement. Was that your intent ?
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ReasonableVoice

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At its core, a corporation is just people working together for common goals.

OK, but I disagree.

The core of a corporation is its legal fiction (since that is its essence)
 thereby attaining benefits ( benefits which did not exist before the legal fiction ).



In a stateless society, they are just people doing stuff together. They have no more rights than individuals and no fewer.

OK, but I disagree, since it is the State that creates the corporation(legal fiction),
and in a stateless society there would be no corporations(as in legal fictions).



As they exist now, they make deals with government for special benefits and therein lies the problem.

I don't think deals is the problem . . . unless that is qualified that by saying "improper" deals.

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SeanD

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I still don't agree with your premise that a corporation not paying taxes is stealing and that using force against them is not against the NAP.

You presented no basis for disagreement. Was that your intent ?

My basis is your so called starting sound premise doesn't seem sound.  Dale is right a corporation at it's simplest is a group of people voluntarily working together (normally for mutual financial gain).  The legal fiction can (and regularly does) change but the corporation will still be the corporation.

Your statement that corporations not paying taxes is theft and that force used to collect said taxes are somehow defensive sounds like you are FOR IRS SWAT team deployment.  So does that mean refusal to buy mandatory Obamacare insurance qualifies as theft also and armed "defensive" forces should be employed to rectify said theft?

Lastly many if not most here believe in free markets.  We don't see corporations as the big evil that liberals do.  We realize that businesses are the real job creators and that any real economic growth is going to require business to thrive.
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ReasonableVoice

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I still don't agree with your premise that a corporation not paying taxes is stealing and that using force against them is not against the NAP.

You presented no basis for disagreement. Was that your intent ?

My basis is your so called starting sound premise doesn't seem sound. 

Can you expound on that any ( I don't see what is not sound) ?



a corporation at it's simplest is a group of people voluntarily working together (normally for mutual financial gain).

Since you don't need a corporation for a group of people to voluntarily work together (even if for mutual financial gain) the simplest form as you describe would be obsolete (extra layer of paperwork with no benefit ).
Who wants to do paperwork for no benefit ?

No, the simplest form ( in fact,, its very essence ) is a legal fiction.



The legal fiction can (and regularly does) change but the corporation will still be the corporation.

What do you mean by legal fiction changing ?



Your statement that corporations not paying taxes is theft and that force used to collect said taxes are somehow defensive sounds like you are FOR IRS SWAT team deployment. 

So, if I am for use of defensive force when a corporation steals your gold, etc.,
Would that also sound like I am FOR IRS SWAT team deployment ?



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dalebert

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It's really just a contract. It's people investing to own a portion of the proceeds that an endeavor produces. I'm not sure what YOU mean by a legal fiction. Maybe you can clarify. But contracts are very libertarian and simply represent clear terms for a voluntary agreement between people. The forming of a corporation might be a bit more complicated, but absent government and the whatever special benefits that governments decide to give corporations, a corporation is just an elaborate contract for collaboration of resources and efforts.

ReasonableVoice

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RE: It's really just a contract.

Yes, that's it!
It's a contract that creates a legal fiction and access to benefits available to the created legal fiction.
The legal fiction created by the contract with the govenment is the core/central component of the contract.
Without the legal(access to government benefits) fiction, the contract is not a corporation.



RE: contracts are very libertarian

Agreed. ( note: corporations are contracts made with the government )



RE: The forming of a corporation might be a bit more complicated, but absent government and the whatever special benefits that governments decide to give corporations, a corporation is just an elaborate contract for collaboration of resources and efforts.

Absent government (and government benefits) there is NO NEED for a legal(government created) fiction called a corporation.
And there is no requirement that there be any collaboration(internal to the corporation) though corporations MAY collaborate internally(separate policy/contract) IF DESIRED.

NOTE: People can ALSO contract to collaborate resources and efforts WITHOUT a corporation.


Now then . . . the CONTRACT with the government to form the corporation includes not only benefits, but responsibilities . . . including the responsibility to pay the proper taxes to the government. TA DAH . . . NEW FIRE STATION

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