voluntary societies

[kingjoedirt23]

I am having a converstaion with a friend on facebook and I just can not get the idea of liberty across to this person.

This is one of her responses to me....

"Are you implying that what we need to do is take the government funded services and make them businesses? Because I'm pretty sure that's how health care, pharmaceuticals companies and insurance companies are fucking people over every damn day in America. It's in every person and businesses best interest to earn as much money as humanly possible. So what to do when they charge out the ying yang for more profit, knowing those are services you need or you will die, not giving half of a fuck whether you do because there's someone just behind you in line waiting for you to hurry up and drop dead so it's their turn because they were lucky enough to have the money."

What do I say to this?

[Tom Foppiano]

Read Lessons for the Young Economist, by Robert Murphy. I have a degree in economics and have read many awful books. Murphy's is perfect for a newcomer. I have a link to a free pdf/ebook at the bottom.

If you don't have time to read, you can point out that those are some of the most regulated industries in America, aside from financial services. Kinda weird that everyone is always complaining about the most regulated industries, right?

Then, you teach this person when companies "charge out the yin yang for more profit" it creates a perfect scenario for a new business to swoop in. Earning "above normal" rates of profit, is called economic profit in mainstream economics. It is very common in today's society because of government regulation. Patents are an example.

With no regulation, there will be no barrier to entry. If all of the hospitals are charging too much money for services (making too large of a return on investment), business people can move capital from other industries to the health care industry. So, if healthcare businesses are earning 20% ROI and manufacturing businesses are earning 6% ROI, labor and capital will move into the healthcare industry. This movement will drive down prices in the healthcare industry and raise them in the manufacturing industry. There is always and everywhere a tendency for balance in a free market. It will never be perfectly balanced, but will move toward it in the long run.

Plus, using common sense this person must know that consumers really can go elsewhere. The claim that in a free market hospitals have endless lines of sick people who cannot seek medical services at a rival firm is ridiculous. There will always be competition.

http://mises.org/resources/5706/Lessons-for-the-Young-Economist

[Diogenes The Cynic]

I would say that its a bad idea for you to discuss broad generalities with non-liberty people. You wont win the argument because there is no specific point to talk about. Try keeping things specific. If you're arguing with a conservative about the size of the military, don't pick a contentious area to debate around. They're going to be pretty adamant about Iraq, or Afghanistan. They wont however disagree with you over a troop withdrawal from Italy, Guam, or Iceland. The same goes with a liberal. They wont accept the idea that instances of central planning don't work, but specific ones will.

Also, don't rely on harsh language. That gets people to automatically disagree with you, whereas not being a jerk will get people to agree with you. Using ad hominem attacks makes you look like an aspie thats why you don't say sky wizard, nazi, commie, jackboot. Don't use stock arguments. Think more. Using the Nazis or KGB is a pretty good way to fill the role of a fill in the blank bad guy, but more specific examples could be used, like the stasi, Pol Pot, etc.

Realize when people are projecting. A lot of peoples arguments come from deep seated things they think about themselves. If you use that against them you win the argument. The premise behind this is to compare the generalities they make to what a more objective look would yield.

I could add more.

[alaric89]

I'll add a bit, but I agree with Dio. We don't really know what fruit the free market will bare but it will be a hell of a lot better then anything a collective bunch of know-it-alls would come up with. A example I like to use is pointing out that in medical technology the more free market parts of the industry have had, by far, the most progress. Namely eyes, teeth, and plastic surgery. "Those fake porno tits in hollywood have payed the way to helping burn victims." I use a lot.* The more the government gets involved in a industry the more stagnant it becomes.**

* Paraphased from "How The World Works" Youtube channel. (going to get some shit for that one)
** Stephan Molyneux started me on this idea of not going down the rabbit hole of "how?" with the non libertarians. Speculation is fun and interesting in a discussion with someone who gets it, but with a statist they generally just trip you up somewhere and nail you on some stupid misuse of a word.