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Author Topic: Topless protest  (Read 17696 times)

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Alex Libman 14

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Re: Topless protest
« Reply #30 on: July 30, 2009, 11:22:37 AM »

no one wants to see [BonerJoe's] manboobs

Well, I'm a little curious if they're bigger than mine...   
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BonerJoe

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Re: Topless protest
« Reply #31 on: July 30, 2009, 12:28:52 PM »

Lew Rockwell started the paleo-libertarian thing in order to avoid this exact sort of hippie buffoonery.

Yes, and they can HAVE their debate club.
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Euler

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Re: Topless protest
« Reply #32 on: July 30, 2009, 02:03:20 PM »

While I never have and don't have any plans to practice Civ-Dis., I generally respect those who do.  I think it is morally wrong and practically stupid to offend people's non-political beliefs.  For example, anti-war protesting is valid even to the extent of protesting the troops themselves but putting a Crucifix in a jar of urine is rude, crude and unclassy.  To the matter at hand.  I find Ian's tactic of defining his opinion on sexual and related matters as enlightened and others' opinions as prudish to be objectionable.  This is a cultural issue.  There is no objective answer.  On many occasions, Ian has also said that he doesn't want "bigots" to be associated with the liberty movement because the media will try to portray the liberty movement as inherently racist.  But with the topless issue, he's done a 180 and doesn't seem to care about the fallout.

I try my best to distinguish between statist institutions and market institutions.  Some of the more libertine libertarians seem to think that cultural institutions need rejected along with gov't ones. 

This proposed protest is going to take place on public property.  Are the Civ-Dis. voluntarists trying to claim that anyones goes on public property and that no one has the right to claim to be offended?
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Evil Muppet

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Re: Topless protest
« Reply #33 on: July 30, 2009, 02:49:07 PM »

I don't see anything wrong with Ian's tactic for attempting to define himself as enlightened.  Especially since I will use similar tactics to say that he is foolish.  Some of what he is doing and saying is foolish, pigheaded and wrong.  Some of what he is saying is also right.   

And what you need to realize is that Ian is not the liberty movement.  He doesn't speak for me.  He doesn't speak for a lot of other libertarians.  He speaks only for himself and since he has a radio program and can draw a lot of attention to himself it can appear as if he has  a lot more influence than he actual does.  I'm not even sure if a majority of liberty activists here even agree with him.  You have a small cadre around Keene which enjoys engaging in shenanigans but you also have many others in other parts of the state which you don't hear about much.     

I think that a lot of the civil disobedience stuff they do over there is very stupid.  It isn't well thought out and most of the time is done mainly to impress each other rather than as part of some overall strategy advancing towards liberty.  It is also extremely stupid when they are going through this civil disobedience based on bogus nonsensical political or legal theories. 

Personally I think that the civil disobedience could be extremely effective.  It needs to be a sustained campaign of civil disobedience instead of a few random acts.  I do not like random acts of anything.  The camera in the courtroom thing seems to be going along the right tracks in my humble opinion though I think when they get off onto shaky legal theories like Sam's right to remain silent sctick then they get into trouble.     

That said.  I don't think the topless protest is a horrible idea.  it can be a good thing if it is executed right. 
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Now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb.

Euler

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Re: Topless protest
« Reply #34 on: July 30, 2009, 03:11:42 PM »

Evil Muppet,

I agree with almost everything you wrote.  From a P.R. perspective, I think the topless thing is a disaster.  If I were walking in the park with kids (I know, "its for the children"), I would be very annoyed at seeing a protest like that.

I didn't mean to suggest that Ian is the liberty movement.  Unfortunately, he just has a bigger microphone and he is a bit of a bully.  As a voluntaryist, I find Ian to be a pretty poor advocate for liberty.  He lets his own cultural prejudices cloud his message.  He seems to think that the NAP is everybody's only moral code.  When it is only a minimum and only addresses when the use of force is proper. 
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Rillion

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Re: Topless protest
« Reply #35 on: July 30, 2009, 04:11:16 PM »

I agree with almost everything you wrote.  From a P.R. perspective, I think the topless thing is a disaster.  If I were walking in the park with kids (I know, "its for the children"), I would be very annoyed at seeing a protest like that.

Why? 
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Zat

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Re: Topless protest
« Reply #36 on: July 30, 2009, 04:33:34 PM »

I agree with almost everything you wrote.  From a P.R. perspective, I think the topless thing is a disaster.  If I were walking in the park with kids (I know, "its for the children"), I would be very annoyed at seeing a protest like that.

Why? 

The Pilgrims silly.




 :lol:
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Euler

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Re: Topless protest
« Reply #37 on: July 30, 2009, 04:58:32 PM »

I agree with almost everything you wrote.  From a P.R. perspective, I think the topless thing is a disaster.  If I were walking in the park with kids (I know, "its for the children"), I would be very annoyed at seeing a protest like that.

Why?  

Because I'm an old-fashioned square who thinks that it isn't proper for little kids to be seeing topless women.  I think when people go a "public" park, they have an expectation to not see topless women.  This is why there should be no such thing as public land.  It results in chaos. Everybody can make some claim that they are being offended by something. Right now, though, there is "public" land.  And I don't think it's unreasonable for some kind of rules to be set for its use.  

Some years back in Morristown, NJ, a homeless man who stunk was hanging out in the public library.  In our current society, public libraries are run by the gov't.  Should he have been kicked out of the library because he stunk, or did he have just as much right to be there as the other patrons?

If the point of the topless protest is to point out how much strife public property results in, fine.  But I don't think the general public is going to perceive it that way.

Where do you draw the line at what is appropriate for other peoples children to see in a public park or comparable venue?
« Last Edit: July 30, 2009, 05:03:00 PM by Euler »
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BonerJoe

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Re: Topless protest
« Reply #38 on: July 30, 2009, 05:04:14 PM »

Where do you draw the line at what is appropriate for other peoples children to see in a public park or comparable venue?

If I wanted my kids to be shielded from victimless activities, I suppose I would have to keep them locked up in my property and not let them escape.
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Euler

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Re: Topless protest
« Reply #39 on: July 30, 2009, 05:37:25 PM »

Where do you draw the line at what is appropriate for other peoples children to see in a public park or comparable venue?

If I wanted my kids to be shielded from victimless activities, I suppose I would have to keep them locked up in my property and not let them escape.

Are you saying there is nothing inappropriate, though non-criminal, that people can do in public that may be viewed by children?
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BonerJoe

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Re: Topless protest
« Reply #40 on: July 30, 2009, 05:48:42 PM »

Where do you draw the line at what is appropriate for other peoples children to see in a public park or comparable venue?

If I wanted my kids to be shielded from victimless activities, I suppose I would have to keep them locked up in my property and not let them escape.

Are you saying there is nothing inappropriate, though non-criminal, that people can do in public that may be viewed by children?

Not by my standards.
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Rillion

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Re: Topless protest
« Reply #41 on: July 30, 2009, 06:18:10 PM »

 I think when people go a "public" park, they have an expectation to not see topless women.

It depends on which people.  People in Germany, for example, do  have an expectation to see topless women in the park, because it's legal there (or it was, last I checked).  When it's warm, women like to sunbathe there topless.  I have very little regard for people's expectations as a barometer for what is okay and what isn't. 

Quote
This is why there should be no such thing as public land.  It results in chaos. Everybody can make some claim that they are being offended by something. Right now, though, there is "public" land.  And I don't think it's unreasonable for some kind of rules to be set for its use.

Currently, the rules say that freedom of expression exists on public land.  Going topless, like any other choice about one's appearance, is a form of expression. 

Quote
Where do you draw the line at what is appropriate for other peoples children to see in a public park or comparable venue?

I don't.  What children see is irrelevant to my standards about what people should and should not be allowed to do.   If you don't want your children to see something, it is your job to make sure they don't and not my job to avoid doing it. 
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AndreInKnysna

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Re: Topless protest
« Reply #42 on: July 30, 2009, 06:57:16 PM »

Protests intended to shock, will convey the message to only a few intellectually curious minds in Keene but regrettably will shun those who don't really bother to think hard about the real message these protests intends to convey. We have no difficulty selling the message of freedom to this class of intellectuals, the challenge is however to get the message to those who don't think much about issues, the broader audience.

If Ian wants to achieve liberty in his lifetime, he should discourage activism that provides ammunition to the enemies of freedom who enjoy characterising Free Staters as: gun toting, pot smoking, boob flashing, anti government anarchists. Any suggestion that his movement fits this characterisation will drive the less intellectually curious away from the message of freedom.

As for me, I don't mind these protests, in fact I won't miss the topless protest for anything in the world. But if you ask me if this advance the message of freedom: no it will only arm the enemies of freedom. I'm sure the smart folks in Keene can come up with smarter ideas. 
« Last Edit: July 30, 2009, 07:35:40 PM by AndreInKnysna »
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Soundwave

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Re: Topless protest
« Reply #43 on: July 30, 2009, 07:15:56 PM »

Can't the CIV/DIS folks come up with some better ideas? This idea is so old. After the feminists got the right to go topless in Toronto, very few females actually did it. It's been probably more than 10 years that Toronto has allowed women to go topless, and I have never seen any female go topless, and I don't know anyone who has. I imagine it only happens at the gay pride parades, and that's about it.

So then....what's all this about women wanting to actually do it, and then when they are allowed to do it....they still don't want to do it?!?!?!?

LOL.

Sad thing is that this just gives people another opportunity to call white guys names like "sexist", "racist", "homophobe" ....and what not. I find it interesting to see such name-calling within the liberty movement, and it makes me think the name callers are really, deep down, just a bunch of no class dirty hippies.

I actually did see a topless woman in Toronto when I was there a few years ago. Anyway, if it were legal, it would be very rare for me to take my shirt off, but there are definitely rare situations, particularly when it was really hot out, where it'd be nice to have the option.
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Julia

davann

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Re: Topless protest
« Reply #44 on: July 30, 2009, 07:19:18 PM »

Quote

Where do you draw the line at what is appropriate for other peoples children to see in a public park or comparable venue?
Quote

I don't.  What children see is irrelevant to my standards about what people should and should not be allowed to do.   If you don't want your children to see something, it is your job to make sure they don't and not my job to avoid doing it.  

Wow, that is just retarded. So is BJs opinion. Of course there are things that parents do not wish their children to see and to do what ever feels good to you no matter if is appropriate for children would just make you an asshole not enlightened. There are community standards. If you want to go topless in the park move to fucking Germany.

By your standards it would be fine for a couple that engages in golden showers to go ahead and bogey down in the park with children around. Thats fucking retarded.
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