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Author Topic: Today's WTF: Left Libertarian Feminists Strike Back at Molyneux  (Read 10825 times)

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John Shaw

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Re: Today's WTF: Left Libertarian Feminists Strike Back at Molyneux
« Reply #15 on: February 01, 2012, 08:47:26 PM »

I have a problem with both "left libertarian" and "right libertarian" (the latter of which seems to be the assumption if you're not going with "left.")  Libertarianism, in its proper sense, is neither left nor right, since left and right are indicators of how you think government should be used to control people, while libertarianism, in its proper sense, is a matter of not using government to control people.  The less you think government should be used to control people, the more libertarian you are.  It's kinda like a pork-loving vegan versus a beef-loving vegan.

But again, you're attributing where someone came from versus who they are now.

<<<Was once an Objectivist. Is now a market anarchist or Anarcho-Capitalist. I refuse to call myself voluntariest because I think it sounds evasive and kinda wussy. 

Molyneux - Was once an Objectivist, is now a market anarchist. (Although I guess he has a thing about self identifying as a "Conclusion" and prefers to refer to himself as a philosopher. 
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John Shaw

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Re: Today's WTF: Left Libertarian Feminists Strike Back at Molyneux
« Reply #16 on: February 01, 2012, 09:26:19 PM »

On the topic of Stefbot as a person, I've worked with him three times on videos and I've noticed a few things.

1. He's not good about answering emails and getting back to you. Also seems maybe a little forgetful about interactions with others. Might just be due to how many people he talks to though.

2. Once you get hold of him everything is cool and he's a pretty friendly guy.

3. He's a person who is obviously used to taking the lead on things, but if you are more of an authority (Knowledge-wise) on a subject and you are willing to treat him as an equal and butt heads with him he will immediately back down and listen to what you have to say*. I kept cutting dead air our of the voiceover he did for this video -

The Story of Our Unenslavement

He had a bunch of long pauses and the whole thing sorta dragged a little bit. I went through and chopped every pause that was more than say a second long. He was certain that the audience needed that time to process the information he was giving. I told him that I couldn't in good conscience put my name on a video that dragged out like that. He thanked me for butting heads with him and I did it my way and the video turned out great. He seemed to be happy with it in the end. Unfortunately the video does a lot of comparing religion to the state and it didn't pick up viewer traction like "The Sunset of the State" which I also made. People don't like sharing this vid with friends and family who may still have a god chip on their shoulder so it didn't get the same attention even though it's probably a better vid.

Shit happens.

Anyway, I've dealt with the dude directly several times and found him to be a reasonable person.

Everybody has their quirks. I have a beef with crazy people and I'm not much of a human interaction person unless I know the crowd well. Other people have their own things. Molyneux is obviously a geek like a lot of us are, (Some of his podcasts are peppered with D&D jokes and so on.) and I think he's got some of the classic geek 'foibles'. Very direct and to the point, has to pick things apart and verify, a little obsessive about his topics of interest. You know, like a lot of geeks are. Another geek trait - Being slightly hyper focused and oblivious to our surroundings unless directly addressed. I noticed that a bit as well when we met him at Porcfest. Again, this is little shit.

The fact that he compensates for those little flaws with his obviously amazing oratory skills is perfectly natural. Certain types of people who are maybe a little more impressionable will tend to congregate around a person like that. Also only natural.

But bruh-man be constantly trying to shrug off the "Cult" crap by requesting fairly consistently that people look at the ideas and not the person. I dunno how many times I've heard someone thank him for this and that and he poo poos it for his part.

As for "Charisma", I kinda see what Brasky be getting at, but actually his voice and demeanor were initially a turnoff to me, and definitely a turnoff to Mel. Sometimes the force of a person's personality... Well, we aren't all aware of it, you know? If you've got kinda a big mouth and a swagger people will sometimes be drawn to you. It's happened to me before IRL. How one deals with that sort of thing is more of a measure of "Cultiness" than just being charismatic or having a big personality.

And I wanna make clear that I'm not talking about how I'm all awesome and shit. It's just... Shit that happens. I know that if I sit down with a group of people at a social occasion, and I start talking about something I'm passionate about, ten minutes later, no matter the configuration of the room, people will have turned around and faced me. I don't seek it, it just happens. And we all know it's not about my amazing smile or anything. It's just... I dunno.

I know this though, there were a couple times in my life when I used that attribute to my advantage and it caused some serious fucking disasters for other people. I knocked that shit off about 12 years ago. Molyneux doesn't seem to be the type to pull that sort of shit deliberately. Dude barely notices people he already knows standing three feet away from him, so I can't imagine him working the mojo on people just for the control-freakery of it all. 



*I am exactly the same way in regards to this and I know it annoys the shit out of people sometimes. I just sorta take the lead if I think I'm the person who knows best, and it often comes off as arrogance. However, if I don't know what the fuck about something I either never chime in or just listen to and ask advice from the person who does.
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Bill Brasky

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Re: Today's WTF: Left Libertarian Feminists Strike Back at Molyneux
« Reply #17 on: February 01, 2012, 09:59:31 PM »

I know addressing the cultyness of Molyneux tends to irritate the people who enjoy his "body of work."

In my experience, I agree with you as far as people who are charismatic are typically unable to turn it off purposely.  They just organically adjust to their surroundings, kinda like a plant photosynthesizes in the sunshine.  I know this from knowing several type-A leaders, bosses, who I respected, and thats just how they are.

It doesn't mean they're that way 24-7, they have downtime, too.  I get that.  They don't spontaneously erupt into oration at the movies. 

The indictment of cultyness is more of a admonishment of the people who blindly follow.  And this does tend to fuel the person, otherwise, they wouldn't have the urge to orate.  If I had a fucking nickel for every nitwit who said "Stefan says" and/or "Ian says", I'd be a rich fucking dude. 

I don't purposely harbor suspicion, any more than that guy (might) read the vibe that he can captivate the room or not.

But once my suspicion is aroused, it takes a lot to change my perception.  I might not ever, even if I'm reasoned with til blue in the face.  Because some people are super-good liars, and that's usually a personality trait of people who are comfortable in debates, publicly speaking, and generally interacting with random people.

I know what I am, so belaboring the topic is moot - and in fact, when people attempt to engage me in discussion of it, I might get a little touchy if I feel like I'm being  A) swayed or  B) recruited. 

If the person isn't exactly sure what the fuck they are, I'm more likely to elaborate - to give a little perspective on what I believe is the correct philosophy.  I have no desire to change people who are set in their beliefs.   ...which is why I never involve myself in the "changing Democrats" kinda convos. 



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John Shaw

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Re: Today's WTF: Left Libertarian Feminists Strike Back at Molyneux
« Reply #18 on: February 01, 2012, 10:17:32 PM »

I totally feel ya on the "Follower" thing.

And that's the sort of stumbling block a charismatic person can run across. Like, in my case, I could sorta see (Only after it was pointed out to me by others) how other people tended to react to me (People almost unanimously either really like me or hate my fucking guts IRL because of my personality.) and when you are just hanging out with peeps, and it starts to seem like someone is sorta maybe hanging on your words, there's only three ways you can go, you ignore them completely, which will bum them out, you can start to take advantage of them, or you can trend toward looking down your nose at them and eventually start getting kinda abusive.

When I was more of an asshole I tended toward option 3. I would get irritated at people hanging on my words and would start to kinda snipe at them and get impatient. This wasn't deliberate or anything, there wasn't any malice aforethought, it was just sorta how things could end up going until I became aware of it.

Option 2 happened maybe once or twice, but I was more aware of that sort of thing and tried to avoid it. Once in a while I still do it, but I feel like shit afterward, for what it's worth.

Option 1 has slowly become my standard. There's sorta another option, which is self deprecating humor, which Molyneux tends toward, but I grew up with enough people busting my fucking balls for one thing or another and I try my best not to do it to myself now that I'm a grownup and don't have to put up with that sort of boolsheet.

As for the follower thing, well, there's not much he can do about it, you know? I mean, ever see "Life of Brian"?

BRIAN: YOU ARE ALL INDIVIDUALS!

CROWD: YES, WE ARE ALL INDIVIDUALS!!!

ONE DUDE IN BACK: I'm not.

ANOTHER PERSON IN BACK: SHHH!
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Bill Brasky

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Re: Today's WTF: Left Libertarian Feminists Strike Back at Molyneux
« Reply #19 on: February 01, 2012, 10:34:22 PM »

I totally feel ya on the "Follower" thing.

[...]

As for the follower thing, well, there's not much he can do about it, you know?


Ya.  My main question is, why do it at all? 

Theres "Spreading the Word".

And theres the fame associated.

And there is, of course, the potential to expand the audience, and eventually make a living from it.

I don't know enough about his fanbase, numbers, books, projects, finances, and IRL employment, etc. to make any valid statements, so I won't bother to guess motives.  Its none of my business why he does what he does. 

I only know why I do what I do.  And that varies from situation to situation. 





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John Shaw

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Re: Today's WTF: Left Libertarian Feminists Strike Back at Molyneux
« Reply #20 on: February 01, 2012, 10:39:32 PM »

I don't know enough about his fanbase, numbers, books, projects, finances, and IRL employment, etc. to make any valid statements, so I won't bother to guess motives.  Its none of my business why he does what he does. 

He quit his jerb as a software exec at a company he started to do FDR full time a couple years ago. He's spreading the liberty word pretty much. Also for the money. S'how he makes his living.

So my assessment would be promoting liberty and making cash. As I understand it he makes a living wage but nothing spectacular. Much less than at the company he left.

Promoting liberty and making cash is awesome, of course.
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Bill Brasky

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Re: Today's WTF: Left Libertarian Feminists Strike Back at Molyneux
« Reply #21 on: February 01, 2012, 11:14:00 PM »

I don't know enough about his fanbase, numbers, books, projects, finances, and IRL employment, etc. to make any valid statements, so I won't bother to guess motives.  Its none of my business why he does what he does. 

He quit his jerb as a software exec at a company he started to do FDR full time a couple years ago. He's spreading the liberty word pretty much. Also for the money. S'how he makes his living.

So my assessment would be promoting liberty and making cash. As I understand it he makes a living wage but nothing spectacular. Much less than at the company he left.

Promoting liberty and making cash is awesome, of course.

Do what you love, love what you do.

Of course, this does require regularly generating content, maintaining fanbase, and so forth. 

In so many words, it is essentially a "job".  He can't exactly have a dry spell, or spend a year in exile wandering Tibet. 

I'm just being conversational, not dicky.  Its a different sort of media than I tend to envision, I'm not quite geared to be interactive in the arts.  I'm a bit of a purist when it comes to creativity and stuff like that.  An author can spend two-three years on the down-low, so can a filmmaker, for that matter. 

When I investigate into people who preach things, it's usually more bookish, philosophies and films. 

So cultivating fame is entirely necessary, for him to succeed.  (Again, I stress, not being dicky)  This does tend to stray into the arena of cultyness. 

To be honest, I never realized his show was regularly broadcast.  I thought he just put out stuff when he felt like it, and this thing of his was more or less a side project. 

I have listened to about a half-dozen podcasts, maybe more.  I know he shows up at events.  His style being kind of aggressive, it kinda turns me off, and because of that, I just don't follow - like I said, none of my business.  I guess you could call that ignorance, but I just don't bother with his "stuff". 




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alaric89

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Re: Today's WTF: Left Libertarian Feminists Strike Back at Molyneux
« Reply #22 on: February 02, 2012, 12:15:56 AM »

You should hear my anti- feminist speech. The letter those bitches would write to me...

Do you actually have a beef with something in that article? Seems solid to me.
I quite reading the article after a little bit. Being a Napster I have the where with all to do just that and not be a hypocrite. I defend individuals and go after generalizations, hence my siding with the underdog most of the time. If I see American feminists going after gold diggers and other evil women who use the inherent sympathy for the "weaker" sex to gain money and power I will take it seriously. I respect the Norwegian feminist because they are very consistant on the being equal thing.

Cognitive Dissident

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Re: Today's WTF: Left Libertarian Feminists Strike Back at Molyneux
« Reply #23 on: February 02, 2012, 01:53:43 AM »

I have a problem with both "left libertarian" and "right libertarian" (the latter of which seems to be the assumption if you're not going with "left.")  Libertarianism, in its proper sense, is neither left nor right, since left and right are indicators of how you think government should be used to control people, while libertarianism, in its proper sense, is a matter of not using government to control people.  The less you think government should be used to control people, the more libertarian you are.  It's kinda like a pork-loving vegan versus a beef-loving vegan.

But again, you're attributing where someone came from versus who they are now.

<<<Was once an Objectivist. Is now a market anarchist or Anarcho-Capitalist. I refuse to call myself voluntariest because I think it sounds evasive and kinda wussy.  

Molyneux - Was once an Objectivist, is now a market anarchist. (Although I guess he has a thing about self identifying as a "Conclusion" and prefers to refer to himself as a philosopher.  
\

No, I'm not, really.  A "left libertarian" implies someone who IS left AND libertarian.  I'm saying there's no such thing (just like right libertarian.)
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Bill Brasky

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Re: Today's WTF: Left Libertarian Feminists Strike Back at Molyneux
« Reply #24 on: February 02, 2012, 02:09:37 AM »

I donno man, if you check the Wiki - which seems to change daily - they claim theres a whole spectrum of Libertarianism. 

Seems to me, Libertarian Left would imply a person who believes in a certain amount of social programs.  Take it further, you get into Anarcho-socialist, which I always thought was oxymoronic to the Nth degree. 

However, if you recall the serious OWS protesters, they kinda had that vibe.  So, it's not like they don't exist.  I think they're out there in large numbers, confused, and prepared to claim half your shit non-violently, through force they claim to despise. 
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Osborne

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Re: Today's WTF: Left Libertarian Feminists Strike Back at Molyneux
« Reply #25 on: February 02, 2012, 02:19:53 AM »

If feminism had anything to do with “the belief that women and men are equal and should be equally valued as human beings and have equal rights", then it would not be called "feminism".

Maybe "equalism" or "personism" or some such.
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Tom Foppiano

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Re: Today's WTF: Left Libertarian Feminists Strike Back at Molyneux
« Reply #26 on: February 02, 2012, 02:54:31 AM »

You should hear my anti- feminist speech. The letter those bitches would write to me...

Do you actually have a beef with something in that article? Seems solid to me.

Hey Dale, pardon my utter stupidity, but were you serious in your defense of the feminist article or were you being facetious?
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Bill Brasky

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Re: Today's WTF: Left Libertarian Feminists Strike Back at Molyneux
« Reply #27 on: February 02, 2012, 03:23:21 AM »

Pay 'em a dollar at a time, right between the tits. 

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Cognitive Dissident

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Re: Today's WTF: Left Libertarian Feminists Strike Back at Molyneux
« Reply #28 on: February 02, 2012, 10:37:47 AM »

I donno man, if you check the Wiki - which seems to change daily - they claim theres a whole spectrum of Libertarianism. 

Seems to me, Libertarian Left would imply a person who believes in a certain amount of social programs.  Take it further, you get into Anarcho-socialist, which I always thought was oxymoronic to the Nth degree. 

However, if you recall the serious OWS protesters, they kinda had that vibe.  So, it's not like they don't exist.  I think they're out there in large numbers, confused, and prepared to claim half your shit non-violently, through force they claim to despise. 


I'd call them libertarianISH confused lefties.
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Cognitive Dissident

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Re: Today's WTF: Left Libertarian Feminists Strike Back at Molyneux
« Reply #29 on: February 02, 2012, 10:39:53 AM »

If feminism had anything to do with “the belief that women and men are equal and should be equally valued as human beings and have equal rights", then it would not be called "feminism".

Maybe "equalism" or "personism" or some such.

This is my biggest problem with feminism, in this apparent context.  If they mean it that way, they've defined themselves incorrectly from the start.
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