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Author Topic: Today's WTF: Left Libertarian Feminists Strike Back at Molyneux  (Read 10823 times)

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Fred

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Re: Today's WTF: Left Libertarian Feminists Strike Back at Molyneux
« Reply #45 on: February 03, 2012, 06:27:29 PM »

For what its worth Dale, I had no problem with what was communicated in the article.  Its so true!
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dalebert

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Re: Today's WTF: Left Libertarian Feminists Strike Back at Molyneux
« Reply #46 on: February 03, 2012, 06:49:20 PM »

+1

alaric89

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Re: Today's WTF: Left Libertarian Feminists Strike Back at Molyneux
« Reply #47 on: February 03, 2012, 07:25:46 PM »

Well I don't hang around any such echo chamber. You know what my echo chamber is? You guys and people like you. I've been here for years and you guys know very well I believe in private property and money. I'm a libertarian just as you describe.

You guys all just spouted a bunch of libertarian platitudes. You've been shouting "leave me alone" for how long now and is it getting you anywhere? Is it actually converting people to libertarians who ought to be so that some people might actually take that advice and actually leave you alone? You may as well pray to the libertarian fairy.

All those platitudes completely ignored everything in both articles and all the points I was trying to make which have to do with convincing other people why the tool/tactic of libertarianism is the best way for all of us to reach our goals, even though we have different goals. You're not going to be very persuasive when your communication amounts to demanding that people leave you alone from your bunker in the woods full of guns. There are plenty of people on the left who ought to be libertarians but they want to live in the city with a bunch of people who work together and care for each other. They just don't yet realize that libertarianism is good for that too and people shouting "leave me alone!" aren't going to help them figure that out.

Someone comes along trying to offer some constructive criticism, like the kind in both those articles, and this is the kneejerk response. It's no surprise that the philosophy seems mostly isolated to a fairly specific type. You seem dead set on keeping it this exclusive private club and slapping evil intentions and convenient labels on anyone who isn't there yet. Those of us who don't fit the stereotypical libertarian type, gays, women, racial minorities--we're your ambassadors to the left. These people were once pretty damned close to what we are until socialists hijacked all their issues, and that happened fairly recently.

It just means I can be a bridge. It doesn't mean I'm smarter. I might be completely wrong about any particular topic. But fucking show some respect for my intelligence and have something substantive to say in response to my intended-to-be-constructive criticisms. You guys know I'm no idiot. I'm no anarcho-syndicalist or commie or whatever and I don't need a lesson in what libertarianism is.

So once again, I'll ask it. Does anyone have a substantive disagreement with the article that they can verbalize and respond to? I don't think I've heard even one yet.

You accused me of using straw men. I know you are smart and all that hoo haw. I also know you're stubborn as a fucking mule and don't like to hear dissenting opinion. Neither does Ian. The article says Molyneux is a conservative stuck in the '50s and we all know he himself stays home and raises his daughter. Liberals use straw men all the time "State a weak related argument  and defend that instead of the real strong one" (Tutorial on liberty kids) I recognised a couple and quite waisting my time reading that drivel. Doesn't mean someone who gives a damn, won't find a important point or two in it.
 I meant your friends, fellow free staters, are the echo chamber. This board is more of a shouting and insult and ban chamber. Not a lot of echo in all this racket. Besides all I meant was many of us are guilty of thinking people are not as stupid as they are because we communicate with so many libertarians. I still look at a lot of conservative stuff (most practical books are written from that angle) and it makes me wince a lot. I meet liberals all the time. I live in a socialist country remember? I have lunch with people who think the world needs ordained kings.
If I showed you disrespect I didn't mean too.
But hey you basically called me a liar a post or two ago and I am not all hurt about it.
Lets call it even OK? I don't like to do wall of text type posts.

dalebert

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Re: Today's WTF: Left Libertarian Feminists Strike Back at Molyneux
« Reply #48 on: February 03, 2012, 10:12:06 PM »

So once again, I'll ask it. Does anyone have a substantive disagreement with the article that they can verbalize and respond to? I don't think I've heard even one yet.

I also know you're stubborn as a fucking mule and don't like to hear dissenting opinion.

I was dying to hear an actual opinion on something in the article instead of the usual dismissiveness just because they were defending (certain flavors of) feminism. Thank you for finally providing something. However, that said...

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The article says Molyneux is a conservative stuck in the '50s and we all know he himself stays home and raises his daughter.

True, but I think they do show elements to back that up based on things he says.

Quote
Liberals use straw men all the time "State a weak related argument  and defend that instead of the real strong one" (Tutorial on liberty kids) I recognised a couple and quite waisting my time reading that drivel.

One, these aren't liberals, and two, what are the straw men?

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I meet liberals all the time. I live in a socialist country remember?

Why do you keep mentioning liberals? These are people who are largely in agreement with us on libertarian principles with arguably constructive feedback. They're watching Stefan's videos. They clearly agree with much of what he says. I agree with much of what he says in the very video they're referencing but they have good points. He can make all those good points without the sweeping dismissiveness of all feminism and reach more people with the message.

Quote
But hey you basically called me a liar a post or two ago...

wut

alaric89

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Re: Today's WTF: Left Libertarian Feminists Strike Back at Molyneux
« Reply #49 on: February 04, 2012, 04:50:20 AM »

Molyneux generalises liberals? I have never heard him do that.
I know what you mean, :) Generalising is a bad idea anytime. I hate being refeared to as "You conservatives". Maybe when one has a soap box as large as his it would be a good idea to be as specific as possible when criticising. "The platform of NOW is..." and so forth. So you win Dale, I submit to your brilliance.

Turd Ferguson

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Re: Today's WTF: Left Libertarian Feminists Strike Back at Molyneux
« Reply #50 on: February 04, 2012, 11:21:52 AM »

Say what you want about Stefan Moly-knox.

The guy can sing.


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dalebert

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Re: Today's WTF: Left Libertarian Feminists Strike Back at Molyneux
« Reply #51 on: February 04, 2012, 01:40:39 PM »

Say what you want about Stefan Moly-knox.

Have you been listening to Wheels off Liberty?

Turd Ferguson

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Re: Today's WTF: Left Libertarian Feminists Strike Back at Molyneux
« Reply #52 on: February 04, 2012, 02:08:40 PM »

Say what you want about Stefan Moly-knox.

Have you been listening to Wheels off Liberty?


Actually that was the last one that I listened to, when he was a guest, with Osama Bin Laden in heaven.
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mikehz

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Re: Today's WTF: Left Libertarian Feminists Strike Back at Molyneux
« Reply #53 on: February 04, 2012, 02:43:34 PM »

I lost interest in him when he became a 9-11 Truther.
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Tom Foppiano

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Re: Today's WTF: Left Libertarian Feminists Strike Back at Molyneux
« Reply #54 on: February 04, 2012, 04:04:33 PM »

Hold on there, buddy. All I did was ask if you were serious. What part of my question seemed like a "knee jerk reaction?"

The part where there's an excellent article and instead of saying "They're wrong about X and here's why..." which I've yet to see anyone really do yet who's complaining about it, you just see "something something feminism something" and when I say it's a very well-written article, you think I'm being facetious.

Well, except for people complaining that they're using the word "feminism", and I understand the beef about that but I think it's an argument over semantics that's dodging the substance.

I didn't write anything bad about the article. Nothing! You freaked out over my trying to ascertain if you were being serious or sarcastic.

Perhaps you should have written, "Here's why you're wrong Tom (or bob, or jim)." All you saw in my post was, "something something anti-feminism."
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John Shaw

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Re: Today's WTF: Left Libertarian Feminists Strike Back at Molyneux
« Reply #55 on: February 04, 2012, 04:18:49 PM »

I lost interest in him when he became a 9-11 Truther.

Dude, that is absolutely untrue.

He went on Alex Jones's show a couple times. He is not a conspiracy person.

I already refuted this with you at length (With a bunch of direct quotes) the last time you said it and you never responded.

And here is the link -

http://bbs.freetalklive.com/general/freedomain-radio-is-basically-a-cult/msg641478/#msg641478
« Last Edit: February 04, 2012, 04:21:04 PM by John Shaw »
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dalebert

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Re: Today's WTF: Left Libertarian Feminists Strike Back at Molyneux
« Reply #56 on: February 04, 2012, 04:51:03 PM »

I didn't write anything bad about the article. Nothing! You freaked out over my trying to ascertain if you were being serious or sarcastic.

Hold on there buddy. You're calling this a freak out?

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Perhaps you should have written, "Here's why you're wrong Tom (or bob, or jim)." All you saw in my post was, "something something anti-feminism."

Honestly, how else am I supposed to interpret it? I said it was a good article and you asked if I was being facetious which any reasonable person would interpret as you calling it a horrible article. ...yes? This is a not reasonable interpretation?

And as far as pointing out "where you're wrong" for not liking it... am I supposed to go fishing for what you disagreed with?

Pfft.

I'm still quite willing to discuss any actual and substantive criticisms when they're forthcoming.

alaric89

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Re: Today's WTF: Left Libertarian Feminists Strike Back at Molyneux
« Reply #57 on: February 04, 2012, 06:17:27 PM »

Dude, you didn't even give me a "Oh yeah him" comment when I gave you the anti- property rights liberal. You got mad at me a while back when I busted on you and all the other clueless non- parents giving parental advice. Most of us regulars don't bother arguing with you more then once. If somebody went through that article and broke down all the BS in it just for your sake you would ignore any proof in it and go after some minutia in the post.

dalebert

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Re: Today's WTF: Left Libertarian Feminists Strike Back at Molyneux
« Reply #58 on: February 04, 2012, 09:22:38 PM »

Dude, you didn't even give me a "Oh yeah him" comment when I gave you the anti- property rights liberal.

Don't read too much into that. All you did was link to a 7 page thread. I didn't particularly want to sift through 7 pages to find the part you were talking about where someone self-describes as a left-libertarian but doesn't believe in property rights.

I'll concede that some people do that and it sux if you'll concede that the people who wrote this article aren't the ones doing it, which would unfortunately bring us back to trying to actually talk about this article and not straw manning by talking about some other non-libertarian feminists, which was exactly the point of the article.

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You got mad at me a while back when I busted on you and all the other clueless non- parents giving parental advice for expressing your opinions.

FTFY

How dare I get mad just because you told me to shut up and keep my opinions to myself. In both cases, then and now, I'm just supposed to accept that I'm wrong because... well because I just am, obviously. I mean, it would take effort to argue how I'm wrong because I'll make arguments back and stuph.

alaric89

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Re: Today's WTF: Left Libertarian Feminists Strike Back at Molyneux
« Reply #59 on: February 05, 2012, 03:42:56 AM »

Of course that article only mentioned the positive things many women fought for, I could have taken it even further and pointed out how many whores and madams gained true power and freedom over history against some really nasty statist. What it didn't do was mention a lot of the evil shit they call for now, like any other liberal cause that survived beyond its goals.
I already conceded that Molyneux shouldn't collectivise them.
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