The Free Talk Live BBS
Free Talk Live => General => Topic started by: sillyperson on May 29, 2012, 10:02:56 PM
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I was one of the first AMPlifiers. I listened to FTL religiously for years. I was a Platinum AMP this whole time.
I'm just tired of juvenile stunts, FK-style. I'm tired of the FSP being associated with a kooky group like FK. I'm tired of vapid phrases like "hurting peaceful people" and "nonviolent evolution". I'm tired of being told that "FTL is not FK is not FSP".
When I joined the FSP and moved to NH, it was about connecting with civil society and your new neighbors in NH. Not about sealing oneself off in a libertarian enclave. The people who joined the FSP and got active in the real native community are the ones making real, positive strides for liberty in our lifetimes. The people who think smoking dope in a drum circle on central square is "activism" are just deluding themselves, and via Ian, FTL is enabling that unhelpful mindset.
I hardly listen to FTL any more, Ian just makes me wince too much.
So long, and thanks for all the fish.
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Cool - we'll keep being the number one recruiter for the FSP and bringing new people here. Thanks for helping make that happen.
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By they way, I guess you've missed my sponsorship of the local homeless shelter and food kitchen. You weren't there for the conversations I have had with supportive local business owners and others in the community.
You only focus on the negative, or what you perceive of as negative.
Do you really believe that FTL and LRN.FM are on the whole a negative to the liberty movement? Ridic.
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Thanks to everyone who continues to AMP regardless of any personal nitpicks they have with Mark or myself. Were it not for you (and Denis for a long while), we wouldn't be the only principled voice of liberty on over 100 radio stations coast-to-coast.
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I'm tired of vapid phrases like "hurting peaceful people" and "nonviolent evolution".
This says a lot about you Dennis, in a not good way.
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I'm just tired of juvenile stunts, FK-style. I'm tired of the FSP being associated with a kooky group like FK. I'm tired of vapid phrases like "hurting peaceful people" and "nonviolent evolution". I'm tired of being told that "FTL is not FK is not FSP".
When I joined the FSP and moved to NH, it was about connecting with civil society and your new neighbors in NH. Not about sealing oneself off in a libertarian enclave. The people who joined the FSP and got active in the real native community are the ones making real, positive strides for liberty in our lifetimes. The people who think smoking dope in a drum circle on central square is "activism" are just deluding themselves, and via Ian, FTL is enabling that unhelpful mindset.
:?:I don't understand how anyone can misrepresent the FSP since it doesn't endorse anything other than bringing liberty minded activists to nh. :?:
Mission Statement:
"The Free State Project is an agreement among 20,000 pro-liberty activists to move to New Hampshire.."
"The success of the Project would likely entail reductions in taxation and regulation, reforms at all levels of government, to expand individual rights and free markets, and a restoration of constitutional federalism, demonstrating the benefits of liberty to the rest of the nation and the world."
If FSP doesn't endorse any particular issue or type of activism, why would what some people do bother you? I understand some things could be counterproductive, but I don't get what seems to be the idea of the post.. i.e. to throw in the towel because you dislike or disagree with particular forms of activism.
Wouldn't it be more productive to try and steer or create the kind of activism you find responsible?
I feel like something this dramatic should be accompanied by more explanation.
What am I missing here?
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I'm tired of vapid phrases like "hurting peaceful people" and "nonviolent evolution".
This says a lot about you Dennis, in a not good way.
+1,000,000
Sad to see Dennis still so worked up about this. Hope you get past your anger.
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Cool - we'll keep being the number one recruiter for the FSP and bringing new people here. Thanks for helping make that happen.
It informed me about the FSP, converted me from "anarchist" to "anarcho-capitalist" eventually I found out about agorism, voluntaryism and the like. Eventually it convinced me to join the FSP (soon).
I dont listen as often as I used to, but FTL really helped me through some hard times in the past as well.
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The people who think smoking dope in a drum circle on central square is "activism" are just deluding themselves, and via Ian, FTL is enabling that unhelpful mindset.
I don't totally disagree with this criticism and I too am a long time platinum, but what's a talk radio show without the occasional PR stunt? On balance, it's the only program out there that consistently brings us serious criticism of the encroaching police state (from both the so-called left and right). So it's valuable to me, especially as an election cycle looms. Somebody has to stand up for what's right and what's civil. The dope smoking thing can seem self-serving NORML claptrap but the hard facts of life are millions of lives ruined or lost every year because of the prohibitionists and their direct and indirect effects. So it's not just fucking around. I don't even do drugs and I support this effort, on purely humanitarian, practical, and philosophical grounds.
Just yesterday I was mulling over whether to raise my AMP level to $50 or $100 or more until the November elections are over. Now, more than ever.
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Bravo, Denis!
If FTL is the number one recruiter it is also number one at turning people away and also them leaving once they stay for awhile...
It is pretty easy to see the quality of the people FTL attracts is sub par, but luckily they leave just as quickly as they arrived after a short stay.
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Sorry you are having money problems Denis. Good luck to you.
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Bravo, Denis!
If FTL is the number one recruiter it is also number one at turning people away and also them leaving once they stay for awhile...
It is pretty easy to see the quality of the people FTL attracts is sub par, but luckily they leave just as quickly as they arrived after a short stay.
LOL. Come to Porcfest and ask a crowd how many are FTL listeners. You'll find all kinds of good people.
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I'm tired of vapid phrases like "hurting peaceful people" and "nonviolent evolution".
This says a lot about you Dennis, in a not good way.
+1,000,000
Sad to see Dennis still so worked up about this. Hope you get past your anger.
Denis doesn't seem terribly worked up about it. It sounds like he's disagreed with the direction of the show for a while, and finally came to a decision. He used the power of his wallet to show his disapproval.
Isn't that how the free market is supposed to work?
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If you're done listening to Ian, start listening to Mark.
Mark is your voice of reason and realistically interacting with your neighbors.
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If you're done listening to Ian, start listening to Mark.
Mark is your voice of reason and realistically interacting with your neighbors.
:lol:
have mental picture of listeners hanging out by their computers, covering their ears and humming loudly until they see Mark start talking on the webcam
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Nah, how could he disagree with the direction of the show? The direction is that we are getting more stations onboard and bringing more listeners to the ideas of liberty.
He's just harping on the same old thing he's harped on for years - he hates activism that isn't "respectful" to the system. His beef is with me. He'd probably love FTL if I weren't on it.
Oh, why can't I just put on a suit and tie and go lobby the legislature like he does?!?!
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Why would a liberty-minded person have a problem with people smoking dope in a drum circle on central square - whether it is regarded as activism or not?
I think a lot of civil disobedience has flaws, but I don't have to go to jail or answer for those who participate. Political activism has flaws as well, to say the least.
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You would think a more pragmatic libertarian would take advantage of the distraction. Cops knocking activist heads and using resources on harmless people like Derrick keeps them from even noticing the smarter (read quieter) breed of agorist and the politicos.
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I'm tired of vapid phrases like "hurting peaceful people" and "nonviolent evolution".
This says a lot about you Dennis, in a not good way.
+1,000,000
Sad to see Dennis still so worked up about this. Hope you get past your anger.
Denis doesn't seem terribly worked up about it. It sounds like he's disagreed with the direction of the show for a while, and finally came to a decision. He used the power of his wallet to show his disapproval.
Isn't that how the free market is supposed to work?
Yes.
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I'm tired of vapid phrases like "hurting peaceful people" and "nonviolent evolution".
This says a lot about you Dennis, in a not good way.
+1,000,000
Sad to see Dennis still so worked up about this. Hope you get past your anger.
Denis doesn't seem terribly worked up about it.
He has been fuming about Ian and FK for years now. He was the one, I believe, who coined the term "freak-staters".
Yeah, he's really letting this get to him.
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Also, his anger about free people living freely is very sad. How can he expect others to show tolerance to people who want to live differently if he himself can't do that?
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Most of those roads lead to prison or death.
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Guess I was being hyperbolic. I promote agorism and ignoring the state as much as possible. Blatantly going against the state in any way that puts one at it and its enablers mercy seems kind of dumb to me. I am mainly against the silly protests but I don't think it is a excuse for the others to not do what they think might help. If anything black marketeers should be working on making it so liberty lovers have a place to run to and hide when the state does crack down. I think 4 out of the 5 can be done in a practical productive way, but do any of them in a way that pisses on the shoes of some bureaucrat leads to.... jail or death. Protest from a libertarian will always piss on some government leach's shoes.
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I'm sad to see the "cult of personality" that seems to be building in Keene. The cult leader can continue to pretend that people's comments about the show are irrelevant, but it's really unfortunate that there seem to be so many Kool-Aid drinkers, and so few with common sense.
This, from an unapologetic free market anarchist who knows the difference between choosing to live as free as possible while advocating doing so and irritating the shit out of people and expecting them to be persuaded that your view is right.
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I feel like something this dramatic should be accompanied by more explanation.
What am I missing here?
Try this...
http://bbs.freetalklive.com/the-show/enough-derek-j-already (http://bbs.freetalklive.com/the-show/enough-derek-j-already)!/msg655129/#msg655129
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I'm tired of vapid phrases like "hurting peaceful people" and "nonviolent evolution".
This says a lot about you Dennis, in a not good way.
+1,000,000
Sad to see Dennis still so worked up about this. Hope you get past your anger.
Denis doesn't seem terribly worked up about it. It sounds like he's disagreed with the direction of the show for a while, and finally came to a decision. He used the power of his wallet to show his disapproval.
Isn't that how the free market is supposed to work?
When I did it, I was a "drama queen."
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Nah, how could he disagree with the direction of the show? The direction is that we are getting more stations onboard and bringing more listeners to the ideas of liberty.
He's just harping on the same old thing he's harped on for years - he hates activism that isn't "respectful" to the system. His beef is with me. He'd probably love FTL if I weren't on it.
Oh, why can't I just put on a suit and tie and go lobby the legislature like he does?!?!
Ian, it's not about being "respectful to the system." It's about deliberately pissing off people instead of persuading.
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Also, his anger about free people living freely is very sad. How can he expect others to show tolerance to people who want to live differently if he himself can't do that?
You honestly don't get it? It's not about the activism. It's about BROADCASTING BAD ACTIVISM CHOICES all over the world, making liberty lovers look like those people the state warned them about. People who haven't "figured it out" already aren't going to be persuaded by that stuff.
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FSP Front page...." All these things will be done by local activist organizations with which many Free Staters are involved."
http://freestateproject.org/ (http://freestateproject.org/)
"activist organizations" are suggested to follow the "five P's" of activism ------ philanthropy, proselytizing, prepping, protesting, and politics."
http://freestateproject.org/nhinfo/Activism (http://freestateproject.org/nhinfo/Activism)
There is not "one road" to liberty.....there are "five roads" and more.
Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty. Thomas Jefferson
I didn't see "pissing off the unindoctrinated."
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That is a bonus.
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This kind of activism actually lets people start conversations.
Although you shouldn't start with, "I'm not one of those Free staters, but..."
It'll wind up in the conversation somewhere.
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Nah, how could he disagree with the direction of the show? The direction is that we are getting more stations onboard and bringing more listeners to the ideas of liberty.
He's just harping on the same old thing he's harped on for years - he hates activism that isn't "respectful" to the system. His beef is with me. He'd probably love FTL if I weren't on it.
Oh, why can't I just put on a suit and tie and go lobby the legislature like he does?!?!
Ian, it's not about being "respectful to the system." It's about deliberately pissing off people instead of persuading.
When you do things that disturb the status quo, some people will be pissed off. When politicos start actually rolling back the government, they are going to piss people off too.
But I don't see the Keaniacs deliberately pissing people off by smoking pot. It seems like the most pissed off people are the libertarians who think they have a monopoly on the right kind of activism.
I certainly think anyone has room to improve in anything (including activism choices). But we need to set the example for other people by being tolerant, not angry, over the choices that other people make.
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"When politicos start actually rolling back the government, they are going to piss people off too."
They won't actually roll back government. Not people like Denis, not really. Fitting in is more important to them. There are some people working within the system not so concerned with fitting in, these are the one's that will make real changes.
Luckily, the FSP is designed for this. The idea of the 20,000 was just to attract voters, so most people just have to show up wanting to be free and willing to move in that general direction. In the long run, that's all that really matters.
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The reality is there are 3 distinct groups. The people that already get the Liberty message - The Statists that will never get the message - and the people in the middle that might get the message. That last group is the people whose outlook towards the movement is most important because that is where population growth will come from.
As a whole that group is probably going to be much more receptive to anti-molestation TSA activism, videoing the cops activism, and similar actions showing the Gubmint denying or taking away our "Constitutional"/FSM given rights. Probably going to be neutral on 420 events and some of the other victimless crime activism due to decades of indoctrination although this can be overcome. Where you will lose many is when they see you "harassing" children, grandmothers that happen to work in the court as clerks or soldiers. These are by common "Societal" norms "good" people that don't harm fellow citizens and should be left alone.
Call them conformists. Call them mini statists. But these are the people you need to target if you are going to get converts. Perpetuating activism that is going to turn them away is counter productive. Until you can see the goal as more important than your ego there will continue to be a disconnect.
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Live and let live...
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They won't actually roll back government. Not people like Denis, not really.
Really Johnson? Really?
When was the last time you;
* cut back a town's government spending
* eliminated a tax
* caused a town *not* to infringe on a property owner's rights
* ensured NH still has no adult seat belt law
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I, personally, have done all those things.
And people "like" me -- in that they got elected:
* eliminated all knife laws
* made real-id "or any de facto netional ID standard that may follow therefrom" illegal in NH
* made it illegal for the government to use license place scanners
* repealed regulations on homeschoolers
... and on and on and on...
If you're looking for people who are posturing -- but not actually rolling back government -- look to the FK crowd, look to topless pot smoking open-carry, look to people acting like jackasses for their youtube channels.
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Just checking to see if you're still paying attention :)
That totally worked.
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P.S. Now you know how it feels, what you are doing to others.
Think about it.
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You quite dissen the topless chicks Denis.
I am looking forward to that.
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Notice how Denis and WTFK ignore the fact that FK activism has support in this community (Keene).
I'm grateful for everyone that sees the value in controversy.
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Also, his anger about free people living freely is very sad. How can he expect others to show tolerance to people who want to live differently if he himself can't do that?
You honestly don't get it? It's not about the activism. It's about BROADCASTING BAD ACTIVISM CHOICES all over the world, making liberty lovers look like those people the state warned them about. People who haven't "figured it out" already aren't going to be persuaded by that stuff.
It's only your opinion that the activism is bad.
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Being somewhat of an "outsider" to outside the system activism, can someone point me to a single law that has been repealed, or changed for the better, because of it?
I know Denis has given part of his sides resume, but hows the other sides score-card?
Just curious is all. Not trying to stir shit.
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Adding one more to the list. Looks like Jury Nullification is about to become law of the land in NH.
Passed the House and Senate; doubt the governor will veto.
Jury nullification. Yes, it took years of perseverance. What it didn't take, was sophomoric stunts, chalking, or candlelight vigils.
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Nah, how could he disagree with the direction of the show? The direction is that we are getting more stations onboard and bringing more listeners to the ideas of liberty.
He's just harping on the same old thing he's harped on for years - he hates activism that isn't "respectful" to the system. His beef is with me. He'd probably love FTL if I weren't on it.
Oh, why can't I just put on a suit and tie and go lobby the legislature like he does?!?!
Ian, it's not about being "respectful to the system." It's about deliberately pissing off people instead of persuading.
When you do things that disturb the status quo, some people will be pissed off. When politicos start actually rolling back the government, they are going to piss people off too.
But I don't see the Keaniacs deliberately pissing people off by smoking pot. It seems like the most pissed off people are the libertarians who think they have a monopoly on the right kind of activism.
I certainly think anyone has room to improve in anything (including activism choices). But we need to set the example for other people by being tolerant, not angry, over the choices that other people make.
No. First off, this isn't about smoking pot. A good example is the town hall drinking game (or whatever.) It was intended to piss people off. It's not so much the miscalculation of the effects of that activism though--it's the absolute failure of common sense required to actually put that shit on the air. People who do NOT understand are going to dig in, and it will make persuasion all that much more difficult.
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Notice how Denis and WTFK ignore the fact that FK activism has support in this community (Keene).
I'm grateful for everyone that sees the value in controversy.
That's irrelevant. What matters is how many people on the RADIO you're hardening to persuasion.
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Also, his anger about free people living freely is very sad. How can he expect others to show tolerance to people who want to live differently if he himself can't do that?
You honestly don't get it? It's not about the activism. It's about BROADCASTING BAD ACTIVISM CHOICES all over the world, making liberty lovers look like those people the state warned them about. People who haven't "figured it out" already aren't going to be persuaded by that stuff.
It's only your opinion that the activism is bad.
No, it's not just MY opinion. It's the opinion of most people who were just like you were--or most likely, Mark was--ten or twelve years ago. Turn them off with your message and they become less receptive to the overall message, and congratulations, you've done more harm than good.
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Being somewhat of an "outsider" to outside the system activism, can someone point me to a single law that has been repealed, or changed for the better, because of it?
I know Denis has given part of his sides resume, but hows the other sides score-card?
Just curious is all. Not trying to stir shit.
Why is success judged by laws being repealed? How about the new people that are attracted here because they like that people are doing things besides begging politicians? I call that a success.
Good luck making a feature-length documentary about what goes on in the state house in Concord. Derrick J's activism alone in 2011-2012 is making for a kick-ass film:
Derrick J's Victimless Crime Spree - Trailer (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-wU90WAPgM#ws)
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Notice how Denis and WTFK ignore the fact that FK activism has support in this community (Keene).
I'm grateful for everyone that sees the value in controversy.
That's irrelevant. What matters is how many people on the RADIO you're hardening to persuasion.
Geez, worry much?
What, you don't think calling the military "paid killers" isn't "hardening people to persuasion"?
I'm not looking to recruit everyone. Just enough.
Good luck with doing a show that aims to please everyone! :lol: :lol: :lol:
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No. First off, this isn't about smoking pot.
Sure it is - to some people the pot smoking downtown was a negative. To others it was topless tuesday. To others it was the crossing guard thing. Other people liked those things. Some liked some, disliked others.
We're doing stuff. Of course people won't like it.
A good example is the town hall drinking game (or whatever.) It was intended to piss people off. It's not so much the miscalculation of the effects of that activism though--it's the absolute failure of common sense required to actually put that shit on the air. People who do NOT understand are going to dig in, and it will make persuasion all that much more difficult.
No, actually it wasn't intended to do that at all. It was intended to bring forward the issue of the open container ordinance and actually make city council meetings fun! Who are you to know what the intentions were? You didn't plan it or execute it.
If you want a show that only talks about political stuff, go watch NH Capitol Access. My show is intended to entertain and inform.
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Being somewhat of an "outsider" to outside the system activism, can someone point me to a single law that has been repealed, or changed for the better, because of it?
I know Denis has given part of his sides resume, but hows the other sides score-card?
Just curious is all. Not trying to stir shit.
Why is success judged by laws being repealed? How about the new people that are attracted here because they like that people are doing things besides begging politicians? I call that a success.
Good luck making a feature-length documentary about what goes on in the state house in Concord. Derrick J's activism alone in 2011-2012 is making for a kick-ass film:
Derrick J's Victimless Crime Spree - Trailer (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-wU90WAPgM#ws)
This shows your fundamental disconnect on this issue. You blabbed on the radio that you can't control when Derrek calls in or some crap like that. The fact is, you're pimping his activism, most of which has been bad choices that makes it hard to persuade liberty lovers who come from a less than principled stance. Yet you pretend, when it's convenient, that you're not. Do you have a screw or six loose or something?
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Notice how Denis and WTFK ignore the fact that FK activism has support in this community (Keene).
I'm grateful for everyone that sees the value in controversy.
That's irrelevant. What matters is how many people on the RADIO you're hardening to persuasion.
Geez, worry much?
What, you don't think calling the military "paid killers" isn't "hardening people to persuasion"?
I'm not looking to recruit everyone. Just enough.
Good luck with doing a show that aims to please everyone! :lol: :lol: :lol:
I don't think that's a bright idea either.
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No. First off, this isn't about smoking pot.
Sure it is - to some people the pot smoking downtown was a negative. To others it was topless tuesday. To others it was the crossing guard thing. Other people liked those things. Some liked some, disliked others.
We're doing stuff. Of course people won't like it.
A good example is the town hall drinking game (or whatever.) It was intended to piss people off. It's not so much the miscalculation of the effects of that activism though--it's the absolute failure of common sense required to actually put that shit on the air. People who do NOT understand are going to dig in, and it will make persuasion all that much more difficult.
No, actually it wasn't intended to do that at all. It was intended to bring forward the issue of the open container ordinance and actually make city council meetings fun! Who are you to know what the intentions were? You didn't plan it or execute it.
If you want a show that only talks about political stuff, go watch NH Capitol Access. My show is intended to entertain and inform.
"Of course people won't like" when you're doing things to DELIBERATELY piss people off. The reason civil disobedience works is because more people agree with the disobedient than the "authorities." When that's not true, you LOSE.
It was intended to "bring forward the issue of the open container ordinance" by pissing people off. This was obvious. I didn't have to be part of the planning to know that. If it wasn't calculated to piss people off, it wouldn't have been a stunt at all.
I NEVER indicated it was about politics, because it's not. This is about your asinine promotion of activism which does more to piss people off than persuade them that the state is the aggressor--the whole POINT of civil disobedience.
You vacillate all the time about what the show is for. When you want AMP money, it's about the libertarian outreach. When you want it to be about your stupid stunts you say it's about entertainment. This comes full circle to what the COMPLAINTS are about. Many, probably most, AMPlifiers want their contributions to further the cause of libertarian persuasion. When you're tossing 55-gallon drums of benzene into the water supply, you're making that pretty fucking hard.
I don't think it can be made any more clearly. Take the last word. You will anyway, and you'll misrepresent on the radio/podcast what people have told you there their concerns are anyway, because it's all about how you get your kicks, apparently. My AMP money wasn't committed for you to get your kicks.
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Ian is the type of person who would probably listen to a non AMP more then a AMP.
With that said, I support LRN, the FTL staff and this sweet message board with my 20 bucks a month. I consider it good use of my money.
I almost quite once because I had had enough of Shaw, but true to form Ian told me to fuck off.* I don't think he even bothered to read what I was bitching about. Ian doesn't knife his peeps in the back.... period. I kind of respect that, even though it is annoying as hell. I would have questioned my people over pissing off a paying customer, but I will admit I would love to have Ian as a boss. Even so the most I would have done was quite in a blaze of glory here and start sending the exact same amount to the LRN tip jar.
I thought the Derrick running from the cops on a bike was pretty funny. I think sexy women in airports giving out reading material is a great thing. I'll bet those things wouldn't make a lick of difference to somebody on the fence I was talking to about freedom, it would barely be a blip in the conversation.
BTW Denis could you please start posting links to your show? I really want to watch your interview with the SL&A girls but I can't find it.
* I am of course paraphrasing for comedic effect. Ian's emails are in fact quite professional.
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The idea of the 20,000 was just to attract voters...
Sorens made it pretty clear that just voting would not be near enough for 20,000 to make a difference. He pictured 20,000 very politically active people.
Sorry. I just feel like I need to clarify whenever I see this being repeated. It happens regularly.
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This is about your asinine promotion of activism which does more to piss people off than persuade them that the state is the aggressor--the whole POINT of civil disobedience.
Seems like the drinking game's purpose was, precisely, to show people that the state is the aggressor.
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This is about your asinine promotion of activism which does more to piss people off than persuade them that the state is the aggressor--the whole POINT of civil disobedience.
Seems like the drinking game's purpose was, precisely, to show people that the state is the aggressor.
...yeah...by crashing their party and tricking them into believing you're breaking their rules...right...at best, that's passive-aggressive....
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You'd have to ask the people who partook in it whether they were being passive aggressive (hint: you weren't one of them.) Didn't seem passive-aggressive to me. To me, it seemed more like they wanted to show people how far the state will go to enforce the silliest of their edicts. I think it made that point beautifully.
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So basically WTFK you want to have a radio show that will try its hardest not to offend any listeners - good luck with that. If you actually do create it, it will be the most boring, unopinionated, milquetoast program to ever exist.
The show is about both entertainment and spreading ideas of liberty. If the show isn't entertaining, no one will listen to the ideas.
Considering we get people calling to tell us they have changed their minds, as just happened this week - seems like we're doing a fine job.
Controversy is by nature polarizing. I want the people who are attracted to courageous activism. We need courageous people to stand up for their rights. The state will not die without courage and risk. Begging ain't gonna cut it.
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Also, if you are concerned I will misrepresent your opinions on air, you are welcome to call and express them personally. Maybe you can convince the AMPlifiers to follow Denis' lead and show me just how bad FTL truly is for the liberty movement.
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After supporting FK financially, I've come to the same conclusion as many others that much of the FK activism will not be effective in achieving the end goal of liberty. I don't think anybody here will be able to convince Ian of this though. Many people have presented a lot of valid arguments against this type of activism, but he has rejected them.
I think he and some other FK activists are missing a crucial point in their line of thinking. Just because you are engaging in activism that is completely moral and just does not mean that you are furthering the end goal of achieving a voluntary society. There seems to be an idea that because all of the activism that has been performed in accordance with the NAP, that it is all great in advancing the cause of liberty and shouldn't be criticized. Or there is the notion that because some people are going to get upset no matter what, you shouldn't judge or plan activism with public perception in mind.
However, civil disobedience, while completely right and moral, by itself does not necessarily advance the cause and may actually set it back. Effective activism must take into account public perception to some extent if you want more people to embrace the ideas of liberty. There is obviously no hard and fast rule about what is "good" vs. "bad" civil disobedience, but I don't think these questions are seriously considered by many of the activists.
Free Talk Live is still invaluable to the liberty movement though. It gets the ideas of liberty out there to a huge number of people and attracts many people to the FSP. It is a huge net benefit for the liberty movement. I AMP at $50 a month and hope to up this in the future. If you disagree with Ian on FK activism, don't let that dissuade you from AMPing. In my opinion, FTL does a ton of good and is one of the best things to fund in the liberty movement.
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The ladies over at Sex, Lies, and Anarchy seem to agree here:
http://nhcaptv.com/episode/216 (http://nhcaptv.com/episode/216)
Start at 26:15
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Hi mport1,
I appreciate your continued support and am sorry you feel that I've rejected valid arguments regarding certain activism. It's important to remember that not all activism is done for the purpose of persuading - some is done for the purpose of attracting.
Aside from that, as it turns out, people tend to disagree on what was "effective" activism. So, one person likes one thing, another doesn't. If you try to spend your time crafting the "perfect" activism that never offends anyone, you'll probably end up doing nothing.
I have seen activists listen to and incorporate critique and suggestions. I certainly have. I'm sorry you don't feel listened to.
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The ladies over at Sex, Lies, and Anarchy seem to agree here:
http://nhcaptv.com/episode/216 (http://nhcaptv.com/episode/216)
Start at 26:15
Who disagrees with that? Guess who is a supporter of the local homeless shelter? When I was at the recent masquerade ball for said shelter, I had a great conversation with a local business owner who is very supportive of FK. (As well as other positive conversations.) Of course, that doesn't fit into your view on what's going on out here, so feel free to just dismiss that information.
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Guess who is a supporter of the local homeless shelter? When I was at the recent masquerade ball for said shelter, I had a great conversation with a local business owner who is very supportive
I commend you for those good, constructive actions.
I sanction you for your nonconstructive actions.
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Apparently the local business owner commends me for the things you sanction me for. :shock:
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What I want to know is why a word has to have exactly opposite meanings depending on whether it's a verb or a noun... and why you're both kind of misusing it, because in this case it's a verb. :)
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So is this whole thing being carefully choreographed behind the scenes?
1. Denis pretends to quit amping.
2. the boards blow up
3. ????
4. More people sign up to amp!!!
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With all due respect to FTL, this being FTL's board & all.. I'm surprised with all the differing opinions that there aren't more organizations out there to suit the varying tastes of the liberty minded.
One reason I've supported both Ian, and Denis, is because they do a lot more than most. I encourage all others to implement what they think will help most, and would likely support your efforts as well.
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With all due respect to FTL, this being FTL's board & all.. I'm surprised with all the differing opinions that there aren't more organizations out there to suit the varying tastes of the liberty minded.
One reason I've supported both Ian, and Denis, is because they do a lot more than most. I encourage all others to implement what they think will help most, and would likely support your efforts as well.
If it were only that easy. Unfortunately, blasting offensive activism over the radio waves has the effect of creating Republicans and Democrats who think the "libertarians" are hippies who like to crash town meetings and drink beer, jump on cop cars, smoke dope in front of children/in public, etc. Note the hyperbole. It's not mine. It's built into the filter through which they'll look at "libertarians."
What so many people have tried to point out is:
1) CD, to work properly, has to create more friends than enemies.
2) An intelligent promoter of CD will choose to thoughtfully promote such CD that he has good reason to believe (such as feedback from a wide audience) is resonating positively with the audience.
3) When step two fails, it creates the impression that "I already know who those damned hippies are, and I want nothing to do with their type. I certainly wouldn't want a society in which they were encouraged."
I hope that helps.
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This thread is very interesting. There is a lot of emotion on both sides. I share the opinion that much of the activism, mostly the civil disobedience, is silly and doesn't achieve anything. I therefore agree with Dennis, that it would be better to not report so heavily on these events.
The reality is that FTL is the mainstream of liberty oriented media, so of course it's going to report these events, and continue discussing each one until the next one happens. The show is popular because it is more sensational, than intellectual. Unlike Dennis, I do not think that because I have an opinion which I am passionate about, that I should be listened to as if I were the producer of the show. I still enjoy FTL, but there are more substantiative shows that are less popular.
I have not become an AMP yet because I do not wish to fund the legal defense of people who go out of their way to get arrested. It seems too much like a fund to pay for the medical expenses of people who like to poke bears. (I am now an AMP after realizing that I was mistaken in the above statement).
No offense is meant by these comments, I'm just weighing in.
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Hi SnugglyJeff. Thanks for your thoughts. I don't know what makes you think AMP money goes to legal defense funds - it does not. AMP money goes to advertise, market, and promote FTL and LRN.FM. LRN.FM includes some of those less-popular, more substantive shows that you enjoy.
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Ian, I just realized last night that I was mistakenly combining AMP with the CD defense fund (I'm not sure if that's the exact name).
BTW- good show last light. Keep them coming.
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(http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/8779/ftlm.jpg)
I get a lot of messages like this, on FB, email, and IRL
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Congratulations, people agree with you. People also agree with me. Can't please everyone!
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(http://www.foodmatters.tv/images/assets/noise-fingers-in-ears.jpg)
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No one is going to show up to your juvenile stunt festival tomorrow Ian. Everyone knows that it's totally immature because you didn't beg the state.
/sarcasm.
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No one is going to show up to your juvenile stunt festival tomorrow Ian. Everyone knows that it's totally immature because you didn't beg the state.
/sarcasm.
Your sarcasm would be funny if there was anyone indicating that it had anything to do with getting state permission for anything.
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No one is going to show up to your juvenile stunt festival tomorrow Ian. Everyone knows that it's totally immature because you didn't beg the state.
/sarcasm.
Your sarcasm would be funny if there was anyone indicating that it had anything to do with getting state permission for anything.
but it's a free keene event... so therefore it MUST be a juvenile stunt right?
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No one is going to show up to your juvenile stunt festival tomorrow Ian. Everyone knows that it's totally immature because you didn't beg the state.
/sarcasm.
Your sarcasm would be funny if there was anyone indicating that it had anything to do with getting state permission for anything.
but it's a free keene event... so therefore it MUST be a juvenile stunt right?
That is also not representative of the complaint. Perhaps you have something other than straw man arguments.
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That is also not representative of the complaint. Perhaps you have something other than straw man arguments.
I sincerely apologize, I wasn't aware I was talking to an illiterate unaware of the title of this thread. How's the cognitive dissonance working for ya? http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/the-texas-sharpshooter (http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/the-texas-sharpshooter)
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That is also not representative of the complaint. Perhaps you have something other than straw man arguments.
I sincerely apologize, I wasn't aware I was talking to an illiterate unaware of the title of this thread. How's the cognitive dissonance working for ya? http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/the-texas-sharpshooter (http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/the-texas-sharpshooter)
Your first flippant comment implied that this was about "asking permission." Don't see that in the title. Your second flippant comment implied that ALL free keene events were called juvenile. You could continue to be insincere, go or ad hominem attacks, and overall just be an asshole, or you could add meaningful discourse to this discussion.
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(http://www.foodmatters.tv/images/assets/noise-fingers-in-ears.jpg)
"meaningful discourse"
I'm glad you've appointed yourself the tsar of it.
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So let's be clear... You are saying that it's not immature to not ask permission from the state to do things... You are also saying that not all Free Keene events are immature. Would you care to backpedal or further explain? So far your attacking comments and lockstep with Denis suggests otherwise...
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(http://www.foodmatters.tv/images/assets/noise-fingers-in-ears.jpg)
"meaningful discourse"
I'm glad you've appointed yourself the tsar of it.
See, this is what I'm talking about. You evade the point. The image was appropriate in response to what was said.
So let's be clear... You are saying that it's not immature to not ask permission from the state to do things... You are also saying that not all Free Keene events are immature. Would you care to backpedal or further explain? So far your attacking comments and lockstep with Denis suggests otherwise...
I'm saying asking the state has nothing to do with anything. I'm saying not ALL Free Keene events are immature. There is no back-pedaling in this. I'm a different person from Denis, therefore, my views are not necessarily identical. I'm certainly not in lock-stop with him. I've even chastised him for making up disparaging terms for Free Keene activists. Are YOU someone's clone?
Would you care to ask meaningful questions, or do you wish to continue collectivizing, using ad homs, and just plain being a troll?
By the way, if you'd ever actually paid attention to my comments, you'd know that I don't have an issue with activism taking place with which I don't exactly agree. My issue is very specifically with Ian choosing to actively support the broadcasting of the most harmful activism to libertarian persuasion. Money is fungible, and hence, AMP dollars are paying for some of that.
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I don't feel the need to ask questions of the armchair activism critic.... No.
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I don't feel the need to ask questions of the armchair activism critic.... No.
A combination of ad hom and straw man:
1) I do my share of activism
2) I'm not saying anyone should not do any activism they feel is correct; it's Ian's insistence on choosing the most damaging to libertarian persuasion and throwing it out there.
3) The only reason I care about that is I'm sending money that's supporting it.
So, your bullshit potshot has absolutely no applicability.
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Damn, I typo'd and forgot the s... I meant to say "I don't feel the need to ask questions of the armchair activism criticS.... no."
I was going for the trifecta. Ad Hominem, Straw Man, AND collectivizing.
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Damn, I typo'd and forgot the s... I meant to say "I don't feel the need to ask questions of the armchair activism criticS.... no."
I was going for the trifecta. Ad Hominem, Straw Man, AND collectivizing.
Why stop there? You could have gone for reductio ad hitlerum while you were at it.
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Yeah, but then you've just invoked Godwin's law.
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Hey, pick a number between 1 and 100. Dont tell me what it is. I'll guess it, first try.
Ok, go!!
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mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmk
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mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmk
76
The number you were thinking of was 76.
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Incorrect... first I thought 66 because it's one shy of 666... then I mused about 27. 6+21=27
T
My birthday is 6/21 If you convert 6 and 21 into letters of the alphabet...
They become F and U.
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Man, thats BULLSHIT!!
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I was thinking of 69 because it represents my 2nd favorite sexual position.
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I was thinking of 69 because it represents my 2nd favorite sexual position.
See, I knew that!
Johnson musta had some sort of tin-foil hat on or something that prevented me from reading his mind.
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I was thinking of 69 because it represents my 2nd favorite sexual position.
After blumpkin?
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Just goes to show what a dishonest piece of shit troll you are. I said YOU could have. I did not.
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You can't do a 69 or a blumpkin?*
Why not?
* Blumpkin isn't in the spellcheck.
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Its considered blasphemy in most circles if a blumpkin is not followed up by a Dirty Sanchez.
So sayeth the lord.
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I give dirty grouchos there, pencildick.
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It may be a pencildick, but I know how to use it.
At least my sister thinks so.
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Yeah she mentioned that when I gave a lackluster performance that time.
Damn you Jack Danials!