Time to introduce myself... I'm a left libertarian

[Zhwazi]

I am sure you would be a fine king, but what we lived in wouldn't be anarchy. 

I don't want to be a king, I expect this will all happen eventually without need of one. I did say that this didn't need to be imposed. Socialism is throwing off the impositions of capitalism.

[alaric89]

When you say "capitalism" do you mean free market freedom to do what one likes with the fruits of ones labor or do you mean what most on this board refer to as "corporatism"?
I know many socialist, believe you me, they are quite capable of greed, and they are better at petty jealousy than any group I have ever seen.
Hvis du lurer hvorfor bare click på profilen mitt.

[Zhwazi]

When you say "capitalism" do you mean free market freedom to do what one likes with the fruits of ones labor or do you mean what most on this board refer to as "corporatism"?

I mean capitalism as the colloquial understanding of mainstream society that has no particular affinity for the word, similar but not identically to what you would call corporatism because calling it corporatism is narrowing the scope of the problem too far. I do not use capitalism to mean genuinely free markets but may occasionally use it to refer to ostensibly free markets or to domination of markets in the name of free market.

I know many socialist, believe you me, they are quite capable of greed, and they are better at petty jealousy than any group I have ever seen.

I don't care about greed and jealousy. It's a fact of humanity that doesn't have any bearing on why socialism is better than capitalism.

[Zhwazi]

It seems to me that the labels applied to libertarian or anarchist like left, right, capitalist, etc. have to do with what people predict a world without a state would be like.  I heard a good explanation from another guy who refused to apply labels.  He said he just wants the state gone and described himself as agnostic with respect to what a world without an aggressive state would be like.

It's sort of like that but the reasonings and motivations differ. The state is a symptom of the problem I want to solve, not the problem itself. I want to eliminate perpetual power classes (i.e. Rich vs everyone else, bosses vs employees, cops vs everyone else, politicians vs everyone else). Inequality of a power of 10 I can understand ($10,000 vs $100,000/yr incomes), though smaller is better, anything bigger than that should immediately invite questioning as to why and how, not explanations about how some people are just plain 10 times better as people than others as I get from ancaps sometimes. I don't just predict something different, I also predict the way it will happen is different, the values of the opposing sides will be different. A lot of the values of anarchocapitalists are destructive to the goals of other anarchists. Defending power disparity that is cause and consequence of the state doesn't further libertarianism at all, and sets it back drastically. Socialists at least acknowledge the non-state aspects of the problem, and while many use the state to try to solve these problems out of seeing no other means available to them and an opportunity available to take control of capitalism's biggest tool, some see the state as part of the problem as well.

[Brooklyn Red Leg]

Zhwazi, as long as you're willing to let us Anarcho-CAPITALISTS do our own thing and not be imposed upon, we will leave you alone. Live and let live.

[Zhwazi]

Zhwazi, as long as you're willing to let us Anarcho-CAPITALISTS do our own thing and not be imposed upon, we will leave you alone. Live and let live.

You whatever-capitalists can't be tolerated if you create systems that acrete power to those inside at the expense of those outside. Separation is impossible, it's all one world and one society. You're trying to put an idea very different from your own into the framework of your own, and it does not fit.

[Brooklyn Red Leg]

You whatever-capitalists can't be tolerated if you create systems that acrete power to those inside at the expense of those outside. Separation is impossible, it's all one world and one society.

In other words, you advocate turning your guns on us? Well, fuck you and the white horse you rode in on.  

You're trying to put an idea very different from your own into the framework of your own, and it does not fit.

Oh, please, by all means TELL me what I believe.

[LTKoblinsky]

It's not an imposed system that one can opt out of, it's more like what it would be if it made any sense to say one could opt out of a world where corporations had such dominant power. Productive people wouldn't opt out because I don't want to punish the prodictive and reward the lazy, just the opposite. I want to reward the workers and take from the inordinate value of the labor taken by owners of capital as profit and give it back to the workers. I like free markets, but what we have now is capitalism, not free markets. A monopoly of force is not needed, an oligopoly of power that abuses a monopoly of force is the actual problem.

First, you are full of aggression. "Will not be tolerated", " I want to punish...[and]...reward", etc... You support yourself with fallacies like the Labor Theory of Value and equivocations of power and freedom. Its as if you're saying that money is power simply because it might be used to obtain coercive power. You also set artificial limits at 10x the "inequality" between individuals, when you don't realize that income is simply a reflection of the value placed on a person's contributions to others. God, I can't believe you're still using the Labor Theory of Value! laughable.

[Zhwazi]

You whatever-capitalists can't be tolerated if you create systems that acrete power to those inside at the expense of those outside. Separation is impossible, it's all one world and one society.

In other words, you advocate turning your guns on us? Well, fuck you and the white horse you rode in on.

As a response to aggression. Not all aggression is as direct as you would like to believe. Concetrated power is aggressive.

Oh, please, by all means TELL me what I believe.

I know what you believe, anarchocapitalist. I used to be one. I know the thought patterns inside and out. If you think you can fit all beliefs in their own little compartments and as long as these compatments dont interfere with each other everything is kosher, that's a prime example of the anarchocapitalist thinking I gave up on, because it grossly misses the problem at hand ajd provides a solution that is only useful in debates and has zero efficacy or usefulness in the real world. The ancap circlejerk comes up with ideas that are useful for debating, not ideas useful in the real world. Exhibiting these useless thought patterns only reinforces my confidence that I do know what you believe, and can probably tell you things about what you believe that you don't even realize.

[Zhwazi]

It's not an imposed system that one can opt out of, it's more like what it would be if it made any sense to say one could opt out of a world where corporations had such dominant power. Productive people wouldn't opt out because I don't want to punish the prodictive and reward the lazy, just the opposite. I want to reward the workers and take from the inordinate value of the labor taken by owners of capital as profit and give it back to the workers. I like free markets, but what we have now is capitalism, not free markets. A monopoly of force is not needed, an oligopoly of power that abuses a monopoly of force is the actual problem.

First, you are full of aggression. "Will not be tolerated", " I want to punish...[and]...reward", etc... You support yourself with fallacies like the Labor Theory of Value and equivocations of power and freedom. Its as if you're saying that money is power simply because it might be used to obtain coercive power. You also set artificial limits at 10x the "inequality" between individuals, when you don't realize that income is simply a reflection of the value placed on a person's contributions to others. God, I can't believe you're still using the Labor Theory of Value! laughable.

Drop the mocking tone, until you make a legitimate effort at understanding me. The use of force is not as simple as aggressive and defensive, convenient as that might make it to judge the world. The 10x limit is not arbitrary and not a hard limit. Even putting it a 10x is being generous. And the Labor Theory of Value is just like the STV that you almost certainly subscribe to, both contain a kernel of truth that members of the other side completely ignore because it would impede their moral indignance to admit that the other side has a point in any sense. Enjoy your ignorance and wallow in it, you're way better than me after all because you're better at misunderstanding and dismissing ideas that you only think you understand.

[davann]

I want to reward the workers and take from the inordinate value of the labor taken by owners of capital as profit and give it back to the workers.

Just to let you know, you start taking my profit and I close up shop. Simple as that. Now what?

You fail to appreciate human motivation and attempt to inject your feelings of right and wrong into business. Suffice it to say, the system you propose will fail even with force involved.

[TimeLady Victorious]

I want to reward the workers and take from the inordinate value of the labor taken by owners of capital as profit and give it back to the workers.

Just to let you know, you start taking my profit and I close up shop. Simple as that. Now what?

You fail to appreciate human motivation and attempt to inject your feelings of right and wrong into business. Suffice it to say, the system you propose will fail even with force involved.

And if enough people refuse to work for you, you won't have a shop at all.

[Brooklyn Red Leg]

As a response to aggression. Not all aggression is as direct as you would like to believe. Concetrated power is aggressive.

Whatever. Live your life as you wish, let me and mine live as we wish.

I know what you believe, anarchocapitalist. I used to be one. I know the thought patterns inside and out.

I somehow find that very hard to believe.  

The ancap circlejerk comes up with ideas that are useful for debating, not ideas useful in the real world. Exhibiting these useless thought patterns only reinforces my confidence that I do know what you believe, and can probably tell you things about what you believe that you don't even realize.

Ya know what, motherfucker, you get the privilege of being the first person to go on my ignore list.

[Zhwazi]

I want to reward the workers and take from the inordinate value of the labor taken by owners of capital as profit and give it back to the workers.

Just to let you know, you start taking my profit and I close up shop. Simple as that. Now what?

Do the work yourself and nobody has any claim to it except you. Not to be taken away and given to anybody. When you start hiring people things get complicated, but as long as you pay fairly there's little foul to complain about. Small businesses are not a threat to socialism.

You fail to appreciate human motivation and attempt to inject your feelings of right and wrong into business. Suffice it to say, the system you propose will fail even with force involved.

I havent even said what I propose. I've described aspects of it in the ways that it differs from yours and others'. You cannot justifiably say that my system will fail without even knowing what it is and why it is that way.

[Zhwazi]

I know what you believe, anarchocapitalist. I used to be one. I know the thought patterns inside and out.

I somehow find that very hard to believe.

Timelady Victorious can vouch for me if that is who I think it is. I've got almost 3000 posts on this board.

Ya know what, motherfucker, you get the privilege of being the first person to go on my ignore list.

War, peace. Freedom, slavery.