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Author Topic: Time to introduce myself... I'm a left libertarian  (Read 22860 times)

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Andy

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Re: Time to introduce myself... I'm a left libertarian
« Reply #150 on: February 12, 2011, 05:59:36 AM »

I think you are right. For myself, I am looking into the sea steading idea.
However the news from Egypt is encouraging. I am still optimistic about NH as well.
Guys like Zhwazi surprise me. He reminds me of the traitor character in the first Matrix film. How can someone who knows the simple truths of liberty suddenly want collectivism?


His views are probably different to yours because he didn't *stop* thinking when he heard the "simple truths of liberty."

TimeLady Victorious

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Re: Time to introduce myself... I'm a left libertarian
« Reply #151 on: February 12, 2011, 06:30:45 AM »

A society where stealing is wrong is possible. Just never been tried. I am not saying bad people would disappear I am saying the thieves don't necessarily have to run everything.

It also depends on what you consider to be "stealing".
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alaric89

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Re: Time to introduce myself... I'm a left libertarian
« Reply #152 on: February 12, 2011, 08:14:18 AM »

Andy, property rights and the NAP are the basis of my simple truths of liberty. If someone isn't hurting someone else or me, what they are doing is none of my business.
and....
Andy and TLV. Stealing is taking the wealth created by someone else and using it for what you believe it should be used for, done by a individual or a group. Stealing is stealing even if me and 10 friends take someones stuff and give it to a puppy orphanage. Or if I take someones dinner and save it for him later, or......
I don't like to type that much, when someone comes on this board and admits he wants to control people or wants to be cotrolled I don't feel like getting all that deep. Why dig into Adam Smith or Ayn Rand when the guy or girl can't even grasp Wheels Off Liberty on a three day bender? You want to steal or be someones slave, fine I think you are evil or pathetic.
But... you know what TLV, here is a present. This article actually makes your point a little better.
http://www.cracked.com/article/89_the-6-most-horrific-bosses-all-time/

Andy

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Re: Time to introduce myself... I'm a left libertarian
« Reply #153 on: February 12, 2011, 10:37:53 AM »

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Andy, property rights and the NAP are the basis of my simple truths of liberty. If someone isn't hurting someone else or me, what they are doing is none of my business.


Probably not exactly relevant, but... what if they're clearly planning to hurt you next week?

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. Stealing is taking the wealth created by someone else and using it for what you believe it should be used for, done by a individual or a group. Stealing is stealing even if me and 10 friends take someones stuff and give it to a puppy orphanage. Or if I take someones dinner and save it for him later, or......

Yeah. No kidding. But how do you know if something belongs to someone? Because they say so? Because someone else said so and sold it to them?

alaric89

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Re: Time to introduce myself... I'm a left libertarian
« Reply #154 on: February 12, 2011, 11:57:13 AM »

You have the right to property from any resource you have rightfully purchased, claimed by using or improving, or rightfully inherited of course.
You have the right to wealth the you created by increasing the value of assets to sound more Adam Smithyish.
If someone tries to take your property, they had better have a damn good reason or they will lose at arbitration and be known as a bad dealer who would have a difficult time doing business with others.
If a group of people get together and try it, they will acquire your wealth. We call this system "government".

LTKoblinsky

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Re: Time to introduce myself... I'm a left libertarian
« Reply #155 on: February 12, 2011, 12:20:34 PM »

Bah, the Lenin example is NOT the same line of reason as Hitler=evolution bad. It's a real world example of revolutionary socialist ideals proving unrealistic and sustainable except by force. Again, for a wonderful, in depth study of property, read Friedman's Law's Order.

Finally, by your logic, I should let others in to freely use my kitchen while I sleep.  I mean, as long as they're quiet, it doesn't interfere with me. The same thing goes for the salon my wife got her hair cut at today. The stylist was an independent contractor who paid the salon owner for use of her facility. Does the first person who builds an innovation suddenly have a moral debt to everyone who follows after? Must they open their facilities to anyone who asks?
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Zhwazi

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Re: Time to introduce myself... I'm a left libertarian
« Reply #156 on: February 12, 2011, 12:32:45 PM »

I think you are right. For myself, I am looking into the sea steading idea.
However the news from Egypt is encouraging. I am still optimistic about NH as well.
Guys like Zhwazi surprise me. He reminds me of the traitor character in the first Matrix film. How can someone who knows the simple truths of liberty suddenly want collectivism?

His views are probably different to yours because he didn't *stop* thinking when he heard the "simple truths of liberty."
Thank you, thank you, thank you. You seem to understand :)

I think you are right. For myself, I am looking into the sea steading idea.
However the news from Egypt is encouraging. I am still optimistic about NH as well.
Guys like Zhwazi surprise me. He reminds me of the traitor character in the first Matrix film. How can someone who knows the simple truths of liberty suddenly want collectivism?
It's simple, I don't. I have repeatedly stated this. I am not a collectivist. I'm very much an individualist.

I don't reject the "simple truths of liberty". State your most basic and simple principles and I will probably agree with them. I reject where some people have taken them. The basic and simple parts of anarchocapitalism I still agree with for the most part. It's some of the conclusions that anarchocapitalists draw and reinforce in each other that I disagree with. Some aspects of the nature of property and justly acquiring it I disagree with. The analysis of the root of all the problems in the world being the government I mostly agree with, but the government is a proxy for many other problems in society. The most general way to state the problem we face is "perpetual classes defined by drastic power disparity". Government is the biggest perpetual dominating class, but not the only one, and ignoring the others and going so far as what many anarchocapitalists do to defend the aggregated power of the rich and powerful as if they are better and smarter is something that I strongly disagree with.

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Andy, property rights and the NAP are the basis of my simple truths of liberty. If someone isn't hurting someone else or me, what they are doing is none of my business.
If I were able to prove that some of what you believe is legitimately owned property could not be legitimately owned property, would you adjust your definition of property accordingly? If you did adjust it according to what I would explain as illegitimate, you would be adopting a position similar to the lefty "occupation, possession, and use" standard.

NAP is not the entire picture. It tells you how to avoid committing injustice yourself, it does not tell you how to deal with injustice after it has happened, and it does not allow for anticipatory defense (obviously because of the huge can of worms that would be that ancap's framework isn't ready to open). What is needed is a process for justice, not a guideline for avoiding injustice. A process for finding justice would make the NAP redundant if properly designed (and not referring to the NAP in it's design).

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I don't like to type that much, when someone comes on this board and admits he wants to control people or wants to be cotrolled I don't feel like getting all that deep.
I didn't say that though. I explicitly denied it in fact.


Bah, the Lenin example is NOT the same line of reason as Hitler=evolution bad. It's a real world example of revolutionary socialist ideals proving unrealistic and sustainable except by force.
We should be able to discuss the "Capitalism cannot be contained" idea without regard to the fact that Lenin believed it. Lenin also believed in statist means to his ends, I do not. If nothing else, this important difference calls for a re-evaluation of the idea in its context.

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Again, for a wonderful, in depth study of property, read Friedman's Law's Order.
Do you have a link to a PDF or something?

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Finally, by your logic, I should let others in to freely use my kitchen while I sleep.  I mean, as long as they're quiet, it doesn't interfere with me.
There's a small element of "yes you should", but the reasons for not wanting them in your house while you're asleep are more issues of distrust of why somebody you don't know would be in your kitchen while you are asleep, and possibly be using my ideas to defend their being there if challenged. If by "others" you mean friends that you have invited over, then of course you should let them freely use your kitchen while you are not using it. Would you not let me use it if you knew me and had let me into your house for a while, as long as I was bringing my own ingredients to cook food? I promise I'll clean up after myself.

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The same thing goes for the salon my wife got her hair cut at today. The stylist was an independent contractor who paid the salon owner for use of her facility.
The salon owner is getting rent. Discussion of rent would take more time, but the income of rent over the life of the building should be approximately the same as the cost of the labor to build the building in the first place, plus the costs for duration-of-use of utilities. If the salon owner is making money by owning a salon and renting it out, the salon owner is a landlord abusing their position in the market to extract an unjust tribute from the stylist.

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Does the first person who builds an innovation suddenly have a moral debt to everyone who follows after? Must they open their facilities to anyone who asks?
The question is too general for an answer. Were you implying that the salon owner was doing something innovative by renting the salon out, or are you thinking of something else?
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alaric89

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Re: Time to introduce myself... I'm a left libertarian
« Reply #157 on: February 12, 2011, 12:50:20 PM »

Bah, the Lenin example is NOT the same line of reason as Hitler=evolution bad. It's a real world example of revolutionary socialist ideals proving unrealistic and sustainable except by force. Again, for a wonderful, in depth study of property, read Friedman's Law's Order.

Finally, by your logic, I should let others in to freely use my kitchen while I sleep.  I mean, as long as they're quiet, it doesn't interfere with me. The same thing goes for the salon my wife got her hair cut at today. The stylist was an independent contractor who paid the salon owner for use of her facility. Does the first person who builds an innovation suddenly have a moral debt to everyone who follows after? Must they open their facilities to anyone who asks?

Property is a asset. Rentals are fruits from that asset. As far as I am concerned a rental contract would vary from case to case and are binding.

alaric89

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Re: Time to introduce myself... I'm a left libertarian
« Reply #158 on: February 12, 2011, 01:20:33 PM »

Zhwazi, just to clarify I am not a anarchist. I think anarchy is a noble end goal for a society.
Yes I live by the NAP. I judge people based on the NAP. I don't suffer bullies, I am not a pacifist. I honestly do not see any moral questions about it.

Riddler

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Re: Time to introduce myself... I'm a left libertarian
« Reply #159 on: February 12, 2011, 02:18:25 PM »

Yeah. No kidding. But how do you know if something belongs to someone? Because they say so? Because someone else said so and sold it to them?


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case you's gahtsa return shit n' shit....
nigga knows shit ain't warrantteeed wit-out no ree-seet
shit be simple in mah world (pronounced ''whirl'' by the brethren)
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Zhwazi

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Re: Time to introduce myself... I'm a left libertarian
« Reply #160 on: February 12, 2011, 02:19:52 PM »

Zhwazi, just to clarify I am not a anarchist. I think anarchy is a noble end goal for a society.
Yes I live by the NAP. I judge people based on the NAP. I don't suffer bullies, I am not a pacifist. I honestly do not see any moral questions about it.
The NAP is not useful for how you apear to be using it. The NAP is a litmus test to see if injustice is present, it does not indicate where the injustice is or how far it reaches. You can only say in this day and age that the NAP is grossly violated, but you cannot say what is and is not a violation. Many apparently aggressive actions can be defensive or retaliatory on deeper than first-glance inspection. You cannot fairly judge using the NAP because it omits too muh information from the picture. Justice is the true goal that the NAP is subordinate to. The NAP must not stand in the way of justice or it loses its own purpose for being.
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alaric89

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Re: Time to introduce myself... I'm a left libertarian
« Reply #161 on: February 12, 2011, 03:21:31 PM »

If people are only responsible for their own actions (and those whom they are the guardian of) and all perceived crimes have a victim claiming injustice, how would the NAP ever show to be wanting?
I submit that if a injustice worthy of reparations happen, the guilty party must have violated the NAP at some point.
I said I accept defensive violence, not retaliatory.

Zhwazi

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Re: Time to introduce myself... I'm a left libertarian
« Reply #162 on: February 12, 2011, 03:51:39 PM »

You have the right to property from any resource you have rightfully purchased, claimed by using or improving, or rightfully inherited of course.
Only if the original owner legitimately owned it. A chain of transactions establishing a property right depends on the right having been legitimate when it was first claimed. Otherwise, all subsequent ownership claims are also invalid.

And what you own is not the thing, you own your improvements to it. If your improvements disappear, your ownership disappears.



If people are only responsible for their own actions (and those whom they are the guardian of) and all perceived crimes have a victim claiming injustice, how would the NAP ever show to be wanting?
Because it is insufficient. NAP is about percieved aggression, not about justice.

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I submit that if a injustice worthy of reparations happen, the guilty party must have violated the NAP at some point.
I agree, but the NAP does not say anything about the nature of the injustice, only about the aggression. If it is more complex than random acts of theft and violence, NAP doesn't tell you anything useful.

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I said I accept defensive violence, not retaliatory.
Violence is violence. Injustice creates debt, and retaliatory violence creates a counter-debt. Destructive equalization of these debts is clearly inferior in the overall and long run. But it's up to the victim how they choose to discharge this debt. I believe in almost every case people will choose restitution over revenge. When viewing the current situations, you cannot rely on this due to the government and courts being based on legislation and not on justice, and being biased in favor of the state. It is not your place to judge the justice of violence in current situations. You can criticize other things, but justice is far too enshrouded in complexity and lies to ascertain as you seem to want to.
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