The Truth About The Civil War and Southern Secession

[Dylboz]

The state is doing really nasty things to other people everyday, all over the world, Luke. I can favor legalizing drugs even though the only ones I take are legal, because I care about freedom in principle and that others may treat their ills (or get fucked up) as they see fit, not just myself. I can oppose war and mass murder and depleted uranium munitions even if that stuff never comes to my doorstep or affects my family members, because I care about the Non Aggression PRINCIPLE, and other people's right to life. Remember Pastor Niemeyer's poem? Just because you're not a trade unionist or a Jew or a gypsy doesn't mean you can't speak up for their rights. In fact, you really should. But what do you know about rights? You think they are a gift from the benevolent demigods in D.C. whom you worship.

[TimeLady Victorious]

The state is doing really nasty things to other people everyday, all over the world, Luke. I can favor legalizing drugs even though the only ones I take are legal, because I care about freedom in principle and that others may treat their ills (or get fucked up) as they see fit, not just myself. I can oppose war and mass murder and depleted uranium munitions even if that stuff never comes to my doorstep or affects my family members, because I care about the Non Aggression PRINCIPLE, and other people's right to life. Remember Pastor Niemeyer's poem? Just because you're not a trade unionist or a Jew or a gypsy doesn't mean you can't speak up for their rights. In fact, you really should. But what do you know about rights? You think they are a gift from the benevolent demigods in D.C. whom you worship.

if we're really good they won't walk in shit before they make us lick their boots

[Brooklyn Red Leg]

if we're really good they won't walk in shit before they make us lick their boots

Unlikely.

[orion]

There are a bunch of people in the "liberty movement" and the Free State Movement and in the FTL community who keep saying that the South had a right to secede in 1861. This is complete and utter hogwash. There is no right to secede, and if you secede you are a traitor, and if you advocate secession you are a seditionist.

Did the inhabitants of America have the right to secede from Britian? The Declaration of Independence was just as treasonous by your logic.

[MacFall]

There are a bunch of people in the "liberty movement" and the Free State Movement and in the FTL community who keep saying that the South had a right to secede in 1861. This is complete and utter hogwash. There is no right to secede, and if you secede you are a traitor, and if you advocate secession you are a seditionist.

Did the inhabitants of America have the right to secede from Britian? The Declaration of Independence was just as treasonous by your logic.

Not only that but, as I pointed out, the signers of the DoI knew they were committing treason, and they were proud of it.

[NHArticleTen]

if we're really good they won't walk in shit before they make us lick their boots

Unlikely.

of course...even if their boots are relatively clean...

sooner or later you'll be licking their assholes...

enjoy!

[TimeLady Victorious]

if we're really good they won't walk in shit before they make us lick their boots

Unlikely.

of course...even if their boots are relatively clean...

sooner or later you'll be licking their assholes...

enjoy!

you say that like asslicking is a bad thing

[Luke Smith]

Police actions on the part of the Federal government against the South did indeed begin in the 1850's. And for good reason. It was blatantly obvious that certain Southern state officials were cooking up plans to secede, and like I said in the beginning, if you try to secede and/or are in the process of planning to secede and you're a state official or any other citizen of a US state for that matter, then you lose all your rights under the Constitution because by illegally removing your state from the jurisdiction of the Constitution, you yourself thereby lose all rights secured under said Constitution.

Oh, that's interesting. True, in fact, but interesting because the first secession movement against the US government began under the leadership of Thomas Jefferson. So... Thomas Jefferson lost all his rights. Thomas Jefferson was a traitor, deserving of death, right? Interesting.

You are biting the hand that gave you those rights. So therefore if you bite that hand then you lose those rights.

Bullshit. The government doesn't give ANYONE rights. We simply HAVE rights. WE ARE BORN WITH THEM.

You have no understanding of rights, freedom or justice. You're nothing but a state-worshiping quisling.

Lukester would look great with some tar, feathers, and hemp rope...

NHA10, I'm just wondering if you've always been the way you are since birth, or whether you became the way you are because the government did something really nasty to you. And if the latter, what that nasty thing was.

Or maybe you became the way you are when you first read Rand's Atlas Shrugged. You seem to be very obsessed with it, and it's a known fact that that book has made all sorts of people do some really weird things. In fact, there's a Murray Rothbard article about the Ayn Rand Cult that started up after she wrote that book, and about all the weird things they used to do in the 60's and the 70's. Maybe you're just the one last holdout from the Ayn Rand Cult, so maybe that's why you're acting all weird and spouting all sorts of random stuff from Atlas Shrugged.

been fightin' for Freedom and Liberty since I clawed my way out of the birth canal...

I'm not talking about fighting for freedom and liberty per se here. I'm talking about all the extreme stuff that you do and advocate. Like all this "repel attack destroy" stuff, and all this "eliminate the mobocracy looter minions" stuff. I don't think that stuff started right away when you were a baby. You may have had libertarian leanings when you were little, but something happened in your life to cause you to take those leanings to a violent extreme. And what I conjecture is that reading Atlas Shrugged is what did that, given that it's already been known to have caused otherwise rational people to act very strange, and given that you constantly spout off pieces of terminology from it, such as "looters", and given that you refer to it as the "owner's manual for the universe".

[Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith)]

Police actions on the part of the Federal government against the South did indeed begin in the 1850's. And for good reason. It was blatantly obvious that certain Southern state officials were cooking up plans to secede, and like I said in the beginning, if you try to secede and/or are in the process of planning to secede and you're a state official or any other citizen of a US state for that matter, then you lose all your rights under the Constitution because by illegally removing your state from the jurisdiction of the Constitution, you yourself thereby lose all rights secured under said Constitution.

Oh, that's interesting. True, in fact, but interesting because the first secession movement against the US government began under the leadership of Thomas Jefferson. So... Thomas Jefferson lost all his rights. Thomas Jefferson was a traitor, deserving of death, right? Interesting.

You are biting the hand that gave you those rights. So therefore if you bite that hand then you lose those rights.

Bullshit. The government doesn't give ANYONE rights. We simply HAVE rights. WE ARE BORN WITH THEM.

You have no understanding of rights, freedom or justice. You're nothing but a state-worshiping quisling.

Lukester would look great with some tar, feathers, and hemp rope...

NHA10, I'm just wondering if you've always been the way you are since birth, or whether you became the way you are because the government did something really nasty to you. And if the latter, what that nasty thing was.

Or maybe you became the way you are when you first read Rand's Atlas Shrugged. You seem to be very obsessed with it, and it's a known fact that that book has made all sorts of people do some really weird things. In fact, there's a Murray Rothbard article about the Ayn Rand Cult that started up after she wrote that book, and about all the weird things they used to do in the 60's and the 70's. Maybe you're just the one last holdout from the Ayn Rand Cult, so maybe that's why you're acting all weird and spouting all sorts of random stuff from Atlas Shrugged.

been fightin' for Freedom and Liberty since I clawed my way out of the birth canal...

I'm not talking about fighting for freedom and liberty per se here. I'm talking about all the extreme stuff that you do and advocate. Like all this "repel attack destroy" stuff, and all this "eliminate the mobocracy looter minions" stuff. I don't think that stuff started right away when you were a baby. You may have had libertarian leanings when you were little, but something happened in your life to cause you to take those leanings to a violent extreme. And what I conjecture is that reading Atlas Shrugged is what did that, given that it's already been known to have caused otherwise rational people to act very strange, and given that you constantly spout off pieces of terminology from it, such as "looters", and given that you refer to it as the "owner's manual for the universe".

No that's not what did it to him.  Plenty of rational people have read that book, my mother said when she was in college it was required reading.  You don't see tons of people running around apeshit like Rob.

[Luke Smith]

Police actions on the part of the Federal government against the South did indeed begin in the 1850's. And for good reason. It was blatantly obvious that certain Southern state officials were cooking up plans to secede, and like I said in the beginning, if you try to secede and/or are in the process of planning to secede and you're a state official or any other citizen of a US state for that matter, then you lose all your rights under the Constitution because by illegally removing your state from the jurisdiction of the Constitution, you yourself thereby lose all rights secured under said Constitution.

Oh, that's interesting. True, in fact, but interesting because the first secession movement against the US government began under the leadership of Thomas Jefferson. So... Thomas Jefferson lost all his rights. Thomas Jefferson was a traitor, deserving of death, right? Interesting.

You are biting the hand that gave you those rights. So therefore if you bite that hand then you lose those rights.

Bullshit. The government doesn't give ANYONE rights. We simply HAVE rights. WE ARE BORN WITH THEM.

You have no understanding of rights, freedom or justice. You're nothing but a state-worshiping quisling.

Lukester would look great with some tar, feathers, and hemp rope...

NHA10, I'm just wondering if you've always been the way you are since birth, or whether you became the way you are because the government did something really nasty to you. And if the latter, what that nasty thing was.

Or maybe you became the way you are when you first read Rand's Atlas Shrugged. You seem to be very obsessed with it, and it's a known fact that that book has made all sorts of people do some really weird things. In fact, there's a Murray Rothbard article about the Ayn Rand Cult that started up after she wrote that book, and about all the weird things they used to do in the 60's and the 70's. Maybe you're just the one last holdout from the Ayn Rand Cult, so maybe that's why you're acting all weird and spouting all sorts of random stuff from Atlas Shrugged.

been fightin' for Freedom and Liberty since I clawed my way out of the birth canal...

I'm not talking about fighting for freedom and liberty per se here. I'm talking about all the extreme stuff that you do and advocate. Like all this "repel attack destroy" stuff, and all this "eliminate the mobocracy looter minions" stuff. I don't think that stuff started right away when you were a baby. You may have had libertarian leanings when you were little, but something happened in your life to cause you to take those leanings to a violent extreme. And what I conjecture is that reading Atlas Shrugged is what did that, given that it's already been known to have caused otherwise rational people to act very strange, and given that you constantly spout off pieces of terminology from it, such as "looters", and given that you refer to it as the "owner's manual for the universe".

No that's not what did it to him.  Plenty of rational people have read that book, my mother said when she was in college it was required reading.  You don't see tons of people running around apeshit like Rob.

I never said that every person who reads it goes crazy. But some people who read it do go crazy. In fact, there's an article that I just mentioned by Murray Rothbard about the Cult of Ayn Rand that started up right after she wrote that book and lasted into the early 70's, and about all the wierdo, extremo things they used to do.

So because he keeps repeating phrases from it over and over again while talking about killing people and other extreme stuff, I think it's perfectly reasonable to assume that that played a part in why he is the way he is today.

[NHArticleTen]

Police actions on the part of the Federal government against the South did indeed begin in the 1850's. And for good reason. It was blatantly obvious that certain Southern state officials were cooking up plans to secede, and like I said in the beginning, if you try to secede and/or are in the process of planning to secede and you're a state official or any other citizen of a US state for that matter, then you lose all your rights under the Constitution because by illegally removing your state from the jurisdiction of the Constitution, you yourself thereby lose all rights secured under said Constitution.

Oh, that's interesting. True, in fact, but interesting because the first secession movement against the US government began under the leadership of Thomas Jefferson. So... Thomas Jefferson lost all his rights. Thomas Jefferson was a traitor, deserving of death, right? Interesting.

You are biting the hand that gave you those rights. So therefore if you bite that hand then you lose those rights.

Bullshit. The government doesn't give ANYONE rights. We simply HAVE rights. WE ARE BORN WITH THEM.

You have no understanding of rights, freedom or justice. You're nothing but a state-worshiping quisling.

Lukester would look great with some tar, feathers, and hemp rope...

NHA10, I'm just wondering if you've always been the way you are since birth, or whether you became the way you are because the government did something really nasty to you. And if the latter, what that nasty thing was.

Or maybe you became the way you are when you first read Rand's Atlas Shrugged. You seem to be very obsessed with it, and it's a known fact that that book has made all sorts of people do some really weird things. In fact, there's a Murray Rothbard article about the Ayn Rand Cult that started up after she wrote that book, and about all the weird things they used to do in the 60's and the 70's. Maybe you're just the one last holdout from the Ayn Rand Cult, so maybe that's why you're acting all weird and spouting all sorts of random stuff from Atlas Shrugged.

been fightin' for Freedom and Liberty since I clawed my way out of the birth canal...

I'm not talking about fighting for freedom and liberty per se here. I'm talking about all the extreme stuff that you do and advocate. Like all this "repel attack destroy" stuff, and all this "eliminate the mobocracy looter minions" stuff. I don't think that stuff started right away when you were a baby. You may have had libertarian leanings when you were little, but something happened in your life to cause you to take those leanings to a violent extreme. And what I conjecture is that reading Atlas Shrugged is what did that, given that it's already been known to have caused otherwise rational people to act very strange, and given that you constantly spout off pieces of terminology from it, such as "looters", and given that you refer to it as the "owner's manual for the universe".

No that's not what did it to him.  Plenty of rational people have read that book, my mother said when she was in college it was required reading.  You don't see tons of people running around apeshit like Rob.

I never said that every person who reads it goes crazy. But some people who read it do go crazy. In fact, there's an article that I just mentioned by Murray Rothbard about the Cult of Ayn Rand that started up right after she wrote that book and lasted into the early 70's, and about all the wierdo, extremo things they used to do.

So because he keeps repeating phrases from it over and over again while talking about killing people and other extreme stuff, I think it's perfectly reasonable to assume that that played a part in why he is the way he is today.

cause don't tread on me is so hard to understand or comply with...

what part of "everyone leaves everyone else alone" don't they understand?

[Luke Smith]

Luke, despite my large disagreement with you, I found what you just posted to be interesting.

What if a state, like Texas for example, seceded and retained the United States Constitution as its governing document.  Say this "United States of Texas" seceded and kept the Constitution but formed a new Supreme Court, Senate, and House of Representatives, how would you feel about that?  Say they did all that and offered a free trade and mutual defense alliance with the US government?

Oh, this was an interesting question that I was planning on answering before, but forgot.

Anyways....

In your example, Texas secedes from the US, but keeps the Constitution. Umm, there's no way to do that. Seceding, by definition, means removing yourself from the authority of the Constitution. There's no way to remove yourself from the authority of the Constitution and keep the authority of the Constitution at the same time. That's logically impossible. I think what you mean is what if Texas created a new document which is nearly identical to the Constitution, and then seceded, and governed itself by that. Well that's a different document, then, not the Constitution.

So it's still treason for Texas or any other state or group of states to secede under any circumstances, with one exception: If 3/4 of the states come together to create a convention, as outlined in the Constitution, and they throw out the Constitution and dissolve the Union, then that is legal. Or if 2/3 of the Senate and the House of Representatives create an amendment to the Constitution nullifying the rest of the Constitution and dissolving the Union, and it is ratified by 3/4 of the state legislatures, then that is legal. Any other method of secession or dissolving any part of the Union is treason.

[Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith)]

Luke, despite my large disagreement with you, I found what you just posted to be interesting.

What if a state, like Texas for example, seceded and retained the United States Constitution as its governing document.  Say this "United States of Texas" seceded and kept the Constitution but formed a new Supreme Court, Senate, and House of Representatives, how would you feel about that?  Say they did all that and offered a free trade and mutual defense alliance with the US government?

Oh, this was an interesting question that I was planning on answering before, but forgot.

Anyways....

In your example, Texas secedes from the US, but keeps the Constitution. Umm, there's no way to do that. Seceding, by definition, means removing yourself from the authority of the Constitution. There's no way to remove yourself from the authority of the Constitution and keep the authority of the Constitution at the same time. That's logically impossible. I think what you mean is what if Texas created a new document which is nearly identical to the Constitution, and then seceded, and governed itself by that. Well that's a different document, then, not the Constitution.

So it's still treason for Texas or any other state or group of states to secede under any circumstances, with one exception: If 3/4 of the states come together to create a convention, as outlined in the Constitution, and they throw out the Constitution and dissolve the Union, then that is legal. Or if 2/3 of the Senate and the House of Representatives create an amendment to the Constitution nullifying the rest of the Constitution and dissolving the Union, and it is ratified by 3/4 of the state legislatures, then that is legal. Any other method of secession or dissolving any part of the Union is treason.

Yeah that's what I thought, you're full of shit.

[Luke Smith]

Luke, despite my large disagreement with you, I found what you just posted to be interesting.

What if a state, like Texas for example, seceded and retained the United States Constitution as its governing document.  Say this "United States of Texas" seceded and kept the Constitution but formed a new Supreme Court, Senate, and House of Representatives, how would you feel about that?  Say they did all that and offered a free trade and mutual defense alliance with the US government?

Oh, this was an interesting question that I was planning on answering before, but forgot.

Anyways....

In your example, Texas secedes from the US, but keeps the Constitution. Umm, there's no way to do that. Seceding, by definition, means removing yourself from the authority of the Constitution. There's no way to remove yourself from the authority of the Constitution and keep the authority of the Constitution at the same time. That's logically impossible. I think what you mean is what if Texas created a new document which is nearly identical to the Constitution, and then seceded, and governed itself by that. Well that's a different document, then, not the Constitution.

So it's still treason for Texas or any other state or group of states to secede under any circumstances, with one exception: If 3/4 of the states come together to create a convention, as outlined in the Constitution, and they throw out the Constitution and dissolve the Union, then that is legal. Or if 2/3 of the Senate and the House of Representatives create an amendment to the Constitution nullifying the rest of the Constitution and dissolving the Union, and it is ratified by 3/4 of the state legislatures, then that is legal. Any other method of secession or dissolving any part of the Union is treason.

Yeah that's what I thought, you're full of shit.

Hey, I answered your question, didn't I?

[Brooklyn Red Leg]

In your example, Texas secedes from the US, but keeps the Constitution. Umm, there's no way to do that. Seceding, by definition, means removing yourself from the authority of the Constitution. There's no way to remove yourself from the authority of the Constitution and keep the authority of the Constitution at the same time. That's logically impossible. I think what you mean is what if Texas created a new document which is nearly identical to the Constitution, and then seceded, and governed itself by that. Well that's a different document, then, not the Constitution.

So it's still treason for Texas or any other state or group of states to secede under any circumstances, with one exception: If 3/4 of the states come together to create a convention, as outlined in the Constitution, and they throw out the Constitution and dissolve the Union, then that is legal. Or if 2/3 of the Senate and the House of Representatives create an amendment to the Constitution nullifying the rest of the Constitution and dissolving the Union, and it is ratified by 3/4 of the state legislatures, then that is legal. Any other method of secession or dissolving any part of the Union is treason.

I'm sorry, but you're a fucknut.