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Author Topic: The Truth About The Civil War and Southern Secession  (Read 35452 times)

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Luke Smith

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Re: The Truth About The Civil War and Southern Secession
« Reply #75 on: May 07, 2009, 05:58:43 PM »

The point still stands, however, that there were laws on the books in the various Confederate States against blacks reading and writing, against blacks holding land, etc.

As for "War of Northern Aggression"? Bullshit, the CSA started the war by firing the first shots.

Besides, in the popular mind, the war *was* about slavery . . .
The popular mind is wrong as the winners write the history books and lied about their true motives.  BTW Norther wealth was based on immigrant child labor in horrific hazardous work environments.   Children who were not afforded any sort of education. 

The Federalist were trespassing on Southern Sovereign territory and refused to leave.  They were blockading city.  What were the Southerns suppose to do invite them over to tea and BBQ.  Aggression in the form of the blockade was the first act of war on the South.   
 

Yeah, didn't that blockade happen only after the war began? If we're going to play this "Constitution" game, the lands the Federal government had were constitutionally the Federal government's, not the individual States.

Queen of the Harpies, I just wanted to say that although you and I disagree on many things, I am very glad that you haven't bought into the mumbo-jumbo revisionist history of the Civil War that a lot of people who are part of the Free State movement and the liberty movement have been throwing around, and that you are actively trying to set them straight on the matter.
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MacFall

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Re: The Truth About The Civil War and Southern Secession
« Reply #76 on: May 07, 2009, 06:39:20 PM »

Yeah, didn't that blockade happen only after the war began?

No. Police actions on the part of the Federal government against the South began in the 1850s. The fort Sumter attack was a response to the act of invasion committed by the US when they fortified it. And it wasn't the only act of invasion either; there were troops marching right through Virginia before then, arresting Southern officials without warrants. And by the way, Lincoln himself referred to it as an invasion. He was downright giddy about it.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2009, 06:40:51 PM by MacFall »
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TimeLady Victorious

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Re: The Truth About The Civil War and Southern Secession
« Reply #77 on: May 07, 2009, 06:45:04 PM »

The point still stands, however, that there were laws on the books in the various Confederate States against blacks reading and writing, against blacks holding land, etc.

As for "War of Northern Aggression"? Bullshit, the CSA started the war by firing the first shots.

Besides, in the popular mind, the war *was* about slavery . . .
The popular mind is wrong as the winners write the history books and lied about their true motives.  BTW Norther wealth was based on immigrant child labor in horrific hazardous work environments.   Children who were not afforded any sort of education. 

The Federalist were trespassing on Southern Sovereign territory and refused to leave.  They were blockading city.  What were the Southerns suppose to do invite them over to tea and BBQ.  Aggression in the form of the blockade was the first act of war on the South.   
 

Yeah, didn't that blockade happen only after the war began? If we're going to play this "Constitution" game, the lands the Federal government had were constitutionally the Federal government's, not the individual States.

Queen of the Harpies, I just wanted to say that although you and I disagree on many things, I am very glad that you haven't bought into the mumbo-jumbo revisionist history of the Civil War that a lot of people who are part of the Free State movement and the liberty movement have been throwing around, and that you are actively trying to set them straight on the matter.

Thanks.

Just to be clear, I'm not a fan of any government. At heart I'm an anarcho-libertarian.

History is history and there is no reason to think of it as any other than it was.
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Re: The Truth About The Civil War and Southern Secession
« Reply #78 on: May 07, 2009, 09:02:16 PM »

The point still stands, however, that there were laws on the books in the various Confederate States against blacks reading and writing, against blacks holding land, etc.

I call bullshit. References please. If blacks were incapable of owning land, why the hell were there Black Slaveowners?
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Re: The Truth About The Civil War and Southern Secession
« Reply #79 on: May 08, 2009, 12:34:34 AM »

The point still stands, however, that there were laws on the books in the various Confederate States against blacks reading and writing, against blacks holding land, etc.

As for "War of Northern Aggression"? Bullshit, the CSA started the war by firing the first shots.

Besides, in the popular mind, the war *was* about slavery . . .
The popular mind is wrong as the winners write the history books and lied about their true motives.  BTW Norther wealth was based on immigrant child labor in horrific hazardous work environments.   Children who were not afforded any sort of education. 

The Federalist were trespassing on Southern Sovereign territory and refused to leave.  They were blockading city.  What were the Southerns suppose to do invite them over to tea and BBQ.  Aggression in the form of the blockade was the first act of war on the South.   
 

Yeah, didn't that blockade happen only after the war began? If we're going to play this "Constitution" game, the lands the Federal government had were constitutionally the Federal government's, not the individual States.

Queen of the Harpies, I just wanted to say that although you and I disagree on many things, I am very glad that you haven't bought into the mumbo-jumbo revisionist history of the Civil War that a lot of people who are part of the Free State movement and the liberty movement have been throwing around, and that you are actively trying to set them straight on the matter.

Thanks.

Just to be clear, I'm not a fan of any government. At heart I'm an anarcho-libertarian.

History is history and there is no reason to think of it as any other than it was.

You don't know "how it was." You. Do . Not. KNOW!
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Luke Smith

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Re: The Truth About The Civil War and Southern Secession
« Reply #80 on: May 08, 2009, 02:36:52 AM »

Yeah, didn't that blockade happen only after the war began?

No. Police actions on the part of the Federal government against the South began in the 1850s. The fort Sumter attack was a response to the act of invasion committed by the US when they fortified it. And it wasn't the only act of invasion either; there were troops marching right through Virginia before then, arresting Southern officials without warrants. And by the way, Lincoln himself referred to it as an invasion. He was downright giddy about it.

Police actions on the part of the Federal government against the South did indeed begin in the 1850's. And for good reason. It was blatantly obvious that certain Southern state officials were cooking up plans to secede, and like I said in the beginning, if you try to secede and/or are in the process of planning to secede and you're a state official or any other citizen of a US state for that matter, then you lose all your rights under the Constitution because by illegally removing your state from the jurisdiction of the Constitution, you yourself thereby lose all rights secured under said Constitution. Which includes the right against warrantless arrest. You are biting the hand that gave you those rights. So therefore if you bite that hand then you lose those rights.

Oh, and Fort Sumter was the federal government's fort, not the fort of any southern state, notwithstanding its location in the South. Therefore the federal government reserved the right to fortify that fort with any or all of its soldiers and/or materiel, at any time.
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Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith)

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Re: The Truth About The Civil War and Southern Secession
« Reply #81 on: May 08, 2009, 02:55:27 AM »

Luke, despite my large disagreement with you, I found what you just posted to be interesting.

What if a state, like Texas for example, seceded and retained the United States Constitution as its governing document.  Say this "United States of Texas" seceded and kept the Constitution but formed a new Supreme Court, Senate, and House of Representatives, how would you feel about that?  Say they did all that and offered a free trade and mutual defense alliance with the US government?
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Re: The Truth About The Civil War and Southern Secession
« Reply #82 on: May 08, 2009, 04:11:55 AM »

Good paper on Blacks in the Confederacy: http://www.usgennet.org/usa/mo/county/stlouis/blackcs.htm
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libertylover

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Re: The Truth About The Civil War and Southern Secession
« Reply #83 on: May 08, 2009, 05:59:38 AM »

Good paper on Blacks in the Confederacy: http://www.usgennet.org/usa/mo/county/stlouis/blackcs.htm
Excellent Article. 

I think one of the reasons for the war was Northern Racism and a false sense that southerns didn't work because they had slaves or some other nonsense.  In the South the races were mixing at a very rapid rate.  The Whites that moved into the south had already mixed with Indian populations.  This is how many Cherokee avoided deportation, they married white people.  In New Orleans there was an entire culture around mixed race population.  This didn't happen in the North with it's black codes which wouldn't allow free blacks to settle in many northern cities.  The Northern elites planed to have the newly freed blacks deported back to Africa.  The people who brought Lincoln to power were much more racist than antebellum southerners.   I mean look at what the Union Army did after they exacted genocide on the South.  They took their genocidal mindset out west and visited it on American Indian Tribes.  They learned from the war destroy the food supply to weaken people.  Then charge in an kill every man, woman and child that was left. 

Luke maybe you should actually read the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence before you pretend to represent their meaning.  The Constitution doesn't grant people rights, people are born with rights period.  The founding fathers made it clear in the Declaration of Independence.  "We hold these truths to be self-evident...all men are... endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men."  They can also be called Natural Rights of Humans or Natural Law.  If governments grant the rights then the people are not free they are subjects not citizens.  The key is government is instituted to protect those rights which people already have at birth.  Now it can be argued with the patriot act rights are arbitrary at the whim of the thugs that call themselves the Government. 

Is it treason when the government breaks it's contract with the people?  When the government shifts from protecting rights to granting rights?

Also, what of the Lakota Nation?  They didn't sign any stinking constitution?  They were an independent nation with a treaty which the USA government broke as they stole land and killed off the Lakota People.  Shouldn't people in the Lakota territory be granted the right to restore sovereignty which was stolen by means of a false contract?

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Re: The Truth About The Civil War and Southern Secession
« Reply #84 on: May 08, 2009, 07:09:26 AM »

There's absolutely no reason to believe that the North was less racist than the South.  General Grant's "General Orders No. 11" banned all Jews and fired them from the Treasury and allowed the Northern Army to confiscate their property and passports.  Robert E. Lee gave Jews the Sabbath off for prayer.  Northern Black soldiers were payed less than Southern White soldiers.  Southern Black soldiers were payed the same as Southern White soldiers. 

Those two simple contrasts right there show that the South was LESS discriminatory than the North.  Although the South did allow slavery and that's the biggest reason why its hard to accept them as the "righteous" side in the war even though some Northern localities allowed slavery as well.
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Santiago Johimbe

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Re: The Truth About The Civil War and Southern Secession
« Reply #85 on: May 08, 2009, 05:26:00 PM »

I don't think this troll is really out to edumacate his'self
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MacFall

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Re: The Truth About The Civil War and Southern Secession
« Reply #86 on: May 08, 2009, 06:14:01 PM »

Police actions on the part of the Federal government against the South did indeed begin in the 1850's. And for good reason. It was blatantly obvious that certain Southern state officials were cooking up plans to secede, and like I said in the beginning, if you try to secede and/or are in the process of planning to secede and you're a state official or any other citizen of a US state for that matter, then you lose all your rights under the Constitution because by illegally removing your state from the jurisdiction of the Constitution, you yourself thereby lose all rights secured under said Constitution.
Oh, that's interesting. True, in fact, but interesting because the first secession movement against the US government began under the leadership of Thomas Jefferson. So... Thomas Jefferson lost all his rights. Thomas Jefferson was a traitor, deserving of death, right? Interesting.

Quote
You are biting the hand that gave you those rights. So therefore if you bite that hand then you lose those rights.
Bullshit. The government doesn't give ANYONE rights. We simply HAVE rights. WE ARE BORN WITH THEM.

You have no understanding of rights, freedom or justice. You're nothing but a state-worshiping quisling.
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NHArticleTen

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Re: The Truth About The Civil War and Southern Secession
« Reply #87 on: May 08, 2009, 09:00:31 PM »

Police actions on the part of the Federal government against the South did indeed begin in the 1850's. And for good reason. It was blatantly obvious that certain Southern state officials were cooking up plans to secede, and like I said in the beginning, if you try to secede and/or are in the process of planning to secede and you're a state official or any other citizen of a US state for that matter, then you lose all your rights under the Constitution because by illegally removing your state from the jurisdiction of the Constitution, you yourself thereby lose all rights secured under said Constitution.
Oh, that's interesting. True, in fact, but interesting because the first secession movement against the US government began under the leadership of Thomas Jefferson. So... Thomas Jefferson lost all his rights. Thomas Jefferson was a traitor, deserving of death, right? Interesting.

Quote
You are biting the hand that gave you those rights. So therefore if you bite that hand then you lose those rights.
Bullshit. The government doesn't give ANYONE rights. We simply HAVE rights. WE ARE BORN WITH THEM.

You have no understanding of rights, freedom or justice. You're nothing but a state-worshiping quisling.

Lukester would look great with some tar, feathers, and hemp rope...

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Luke Smith

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Re: The Truth About The Civil War and Southern Secession
« Reply #88 on: May 11, 2009, 10:12:31 PM »

Police actions on the part of the Federal government against the South did indeed begin in the 1850's. And for good reason. It was blatantly obvious that certain Southern state officials were cooking up plans to secede, and like I said in the beginning, if you try to secede and/or are in the process of planning to secede and you're a state official or any other citizen of a US state for that matter, then you lose all your rights under the Constitution because by illegally removing your state from the jurisdiction of the Constitution, you yourself thereby lose all rights secured under said Constitution.
Oh, that's interesting. True, in fact, but interesting because the first secession movement against the US government began under the leadership of Thomas Jefferson. So... Thomas Jefferson lost all his rights. Thomas Jefferson was a traitor, deserving of death, right? Interesting.

Quote
You are biting the hand that gave you those rights. So therefore if you bite that hand then you lose those rights.
Bullshit. The government doesn't give ANYONE rights. We simply HAVE rights. WE ARE BORN WITH THEM.

You have no understanding of rights, freedom or justice. You're nothing but a state-worshiping quisling.

Lukester would look great with some tar, feathers, and hemp rope...

NHA10, I'm just wondering if you've always been the way you are since birth, or whether you became the way you are because the government did something really nasty to you. And if the latter, what that nasty thing was.

Or maybe you became the way you are when you first read Rand's Atlas Shrugged. You seem to be very obsessed with it, and it's a known fact that that book has made all sorts of people do some really weird things. In fact, there's a Murray Rothbard article about the Ayn Rand Cult that started up after she wrote that book, and about all the weird things they used to do in the 60's and the 70's. Maybe you're just the one last holdout from the Ayn Rand Cult, so maybe that's why you're acting all weird and spouting all sorts of random stuff from Atlas Shrugged.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2009, 10:23:12 PM by Luke Smith »
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NHArticleTen

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Re: The Truth About The Civil War and Southern Secession
« Reply #89 on: May 12, 2009, 09:53:11 AM »

Police actions on the part of the Federal government against the South did indeed begin in the 1850's. And for good reason. It was blatantly obvious that certain Southern state officials were cooking up plans to secede, and like I said in the beginning, if you try to secede and/or are in the process of planning to secede and you're a state official or any other citizen of a US state for that matter, then you lose all your rights under the Constitution because by illegally removing your state from the jurisdiction of the Constitution, you yourself thereby lose all rights secured under said Constitution.
Oh, that's interesting. True, in fact, but interesting because the first secession movement against the US government began under the leadership of Thomas Jefferson. So... Thomas Jefferson lost all his rights. Thomas Jefferson was a traitor, deserving of death, right? Interesting.

Quote
You are biting the hand that gave you those rights. So therefore if you bite that hand then you lose those rights.
Bullshit. The government doesn't give ANYONE rights. We simply HAVE rights. WE ARE BORN WITH THEM.

You have no understanding of rights, freedom or justice. You're nothing but a state-worshiping quisling.

Lukester would look great with some tar, feathers, and hemp rope...

NHA10, I'm just wondering if you've always been the way you are since birth, or whether you became the way you are because the government did something really nasty to you. And if the latter, what that nasty thing was.

Or maybe you became the way you are when you first read Rand's Atlas Shrugged. You seem to be very obsessed with it, and it's a known fact that that book has made all sorts of people do some really weird things. In fact, there's a Murray Rothbard article about the Ayn Rand Cult that started up after she wrote that book, and about all the weird things they used to do in the 60's and the 70's. Maybe you're just the one last holdout from the Ayn Rand Cult, so maybe that's why you're acting all weird and spouting all sorts of random stuff from Atlas Shrugged.

been fightin' for Freedom and Liberty since I clawed my way out of the birth canal...

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