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Author Topic: The Truth About The Civil War and Southern Secession  (Read 35451 times)

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Brooklyn Red Leg

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Re: The Truth About The Civil War and Southern Secession
« Reply #45 on: May 05, 2009, 09:26:02 PM »

Southerners didn't want to live with free Blacks either.

Categorically untrue. There were Black and Mulatto Slaveowners as well as White and Mulatto Slaves. The Peculiar Institution wasn't about race. It was about Caste. Read about Mary Chestnut Boykin and you'll be surprised.
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Santiago Johimbe

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Re: The Truth About The Civil War and Southern Secession
« Reply #46 on: May 05, 2009, 11:23:20 PM »

Whether a previous claim is cited or not, Lincoln did write in a letter to his buddy Horace Greely (the socialist newspaper guy) that
if he could keep his nation together without freeing a single slave, he would. If your google-fu can't find *that* reference, there's not
a whole lot I can do for ya (directed to anyone who believes that the war was fought over slavery).

I don't think either government would have been anywhere near perfect, though. I just like the idea of being able to opt out without having to fight a war over it. Hell, was it worth over 600,000 deaths to keep his little empire together? I don't think so.
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libertylover

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Re: The Truth About The Civil War and Southern Secession
« Reply #47 on: May 06, 2009, 02:40:06 AM »

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Obviously still indoctrinated by public schools which are a product of the Union North.  The president of the Confederacy adopted an abused black child and while he was being tried by the North for demanding freedom for his people.  He made sure that his adopted son's education was paid for in advance no one forced him to do this.  Also several Confederates who were intermarried with blacks left the country after the war and set up a colony in Brazil.  The leader of this group was married to a Black woman and they had several children. 
Yes, all of that being after the war. And "freedom"? More like freedom to keep his profits. Jefferson Davis was a planter and a lawyer and, from all histories I've read of him, less than an astute politician.
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The Confederates refused to fight a gorilla war and the placement of landmines considering their defensive position it would have been a better tactic.  Yet Sherman and the North had no problems with genocide, slash and burn of the south forcing thousands upon uncounted thousands of Southern Blacks and Whites to starve to death or expose them to deadly illnesses.  The commandant of a Southern prisoner of war facility which wouldn't have been necessary if the Union hadn't stopped prisoner exchanges.  Sent all captured children back home even without and exchange for their safety, typically these were drummer boys.  The Union made no such concession for Confederate boys but in fact tortured Confederate prisoners.  Even Union prisoners testified at the trial of the Confederate commandant that he was a fair and just individual attempting to do the best he could in the situation.  The situation being that even the civilian population was starving.  No charges were ever brought against the sadistic Union commandants even though their abuses were well documented.   http://www.timesexaminer.com/content/view/1055/1/

So what? You fight a war to win it. You fight a civil war as harsh as you can.

Yes, it was a war for freedom just as much as the American Revolution was a war for freedom.  If you are unaware slavery was an institution before and after the Revolutionary war.  It was a war of Federalist vs States Rights Advocates.  The Federalist wanted a centralized power elite to govern the nation.  More populated area or richer areas would influence government to take from the less populated and less wealthy areas. 

The Southerners and Davis wanting to keep their profits?  It was more like they didn't feel that it was justified to tax the south at 35% to protect the profits of Northern Industrialist. 

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http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1435577/posts
Well let me assure yíall if you have been taught such history, it is time you learned the truth about Jefferson Davis! First of all, yes, Davis did own slaves. He was quite different from many slave owners though. He educated his slaves, allowed them to have their own court system, to earn money, to marry. In fact, his deeply held belief was one-day slavery would thankfully end. He felt it the duty of the White Southerner to prepare the slaves for freedom. Unlike Lincoln who considered Blacks inherently inferior, and saw shipping them out of America as a solution, Davis saw a day when the races would be equal. Got that? Equal! He was possibly the most progressive thinker of his day in regards to slavery and the conditions of the races.

There is even more to Davisís character that must be told though. He is the only, American President ever to adopt a Black child into his family! What is that? You ask. In 1864, his wife Varina Davis saw a young slave being beaten by his abusive owner. She stopped her carriage, saved the child and soon he was part of the Davis family. Jim Limber, the boy who became the greatest evidence of Davisís compassion and love for all Southerners has, of course been whitewashed from history. Frankly a Black slave being adopted by the evil Confederate President does not fit the script politically correct historians want to teach us.
As for not fighting to win.  Southerners operated under an notion of chivalry.  They refused to compromise some principles like not killing women and children.  Not using enemy prisoners as slave labor or human shields.   The concept of all out warfare held no moral problems for Northern forces and commanders. 
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Luke Smith

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Re: The Truth About The Civil War and Southern Secession
« Reply #48 on: May 06, 2009, 04:32:58 AM »

Doesn't change the fact that the average Southerner aspired to own slaves . . .

Wow. Messed up. Maybe this shouldn't surprise me, but still, wow.
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Luke Smith

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Re: The Truth About The Civil War and Southern Secession
« Reply #49 on: May 06, 2009, 04:44:03 AM »

Hell, was it worth over 600,000 deaths to keep his little empire together? I don't think so.

It wasn't "his little empire". It was, and is, the United States of America, and he was elected president for the purpose of defeating the traitors who had torn apart the United States of America. Which he did quite handily.
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Luke Smith

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Re: The Truth About The Civil War and Southern Secession
« Reply #50 on: May 06, 2009, 05:11:13 AM »

With your line of reasoning...just replace "North" with "Husband" and "South" with "Wife"...then see if your logic is seen as rational by anyone not delusional...
Once the South signed the Constitution, it was part of One Nation, Indivisible, With Liberty and Justice for All. If the South wanted to be part of a different nation, then it shouldn't have signed. But when it signed and 70 years later tried to secede, then what it was doing was breaking apart the indivisible nation of the USA, which is treason.

What the hell does something an 19th Century National Socialist wrote as a pledge of allegiance to the flag have to do with right of states to secede?  The pledge of allegiance was written after the War of Northern Aggression.  And there wasn't liberty and justice for all. 

Yes there was. And he wasn't a national socialist, he was a Christian socialist. There's a big difference there. The Pledge of Allegience has everything to do with secession, because it enshrines the fact that the nation is one and indivisible, not divisible into whatever parts that secessionists want it to be divisible into.

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75% of southern's did not own slaves, they worked their own farms.  Southerner's were forced to pay 35% tariffs while Northern industrialist paid considerably less in taxes.  Southerner's wouldn't have fought for slavery because by the time the war broke out only the wealthy minority owned any slaves.  The Northern states were over represented in government and used that majority to force, through unfair taxes, southern citizens to pay northern debts.

Okay fine, I admit that the taxes were unfair. But secession/treason is never the answer. Sorry.

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The Constitution includes a clause which is the consent of the governed.

Yes it most certainly does. And that consent takes place when the the Constitution is placed in front of the state delegates and they decide to either ratify it or not ratify it. If they choose to not ratify it, then they can go on their merry way. If they choose to ratify it, then whatever state they represent becomes a permanent part of the nation.

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This means when the consent is withdrawn they are free to leave.

No they aren't. Their freedom to leave occurs when the delegates which lawfully represent the state in question are sitting in front of the Constitution and deciding whether to ratify it or not ratify it. If they choose not to ratify it, then they don't become part of the nation. But once they ratify it the state that they represent becomes a permanent part of the nation.

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Many of the Anti-Federalist would have never signed the US Constitution if it did not include an escape clause. http://mises.org/story/3427 The Inalienable Right of Secession.  Really good article about the legal grounds on which secession can be established.  Sorry Luke no mention of it being treason.

It doesn't include an escape clause, but it does include an escape provision. That escape provision is for the delegates of the territories that are not states yet to not ratify the Constitution. No state is, was, or should be, forced to ratify the Constitution. But once a state has ratified, it has ratified, and it is in for good. What you're saying about antifederalists either makes no sense, or forces me to conclude that they were very confused people. Because there isn't a nation on this earth where any region of that nation can leave whenever it pleases and nobody will try to stop them. That just doesn't exist in the real world.
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TimeLady Victorious

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Re: The Truth About The Civil War and Southern Secession
« Reply #51 on: May 06, 2009, 08:05:20 AM »

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Yes, it was a war for freedom just as much as the American Revolution was a war for freedom.  If you are unaware slavery was an institution before and after the Revolutionary war.  It was a war of Federalist vs States Rights Advocates.  The Federalist wanted a centralized power elite to govern the nation.  More populated area or richer areas would influence government to take from the less populated and less wealthy areas.

Don't give me this "States' Rights" crap. Remember what George Wallace said, that "States' Rights" means exactly the same as segregation? What kind of people do you think supported him? Yeah . . .

And of course more populated and richer areas influence government. That's sort of the way it's always been. If the CSA's main point wasn't actually the right to keep slaves, I wouldn't feel the way I do about it. The economy of the CSA was about plantation farming. Plantations were farmed by slaves. The rich people in the CSA - you guessed it - owned slaves to farm their plantations. And after the war Blacks were kept as second-class citizens in the ex-Confederate States. And guess who influenced the government of the CSA? The rich people!

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As for not fighting to win.  Southerners operated under an notion of chivalry.  They refused to compromise some principles like not killing women and children.  Not using enemy prisoners as slave labor or human shields.   The concept of all out warfare held no moral problems for Northern forces and commanders.

Yeah, guess which side won? The very concept of war is built around atrocity. It's not all beer and skittles.
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Santiago Johimbe

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Re: The Truth About The Civil War and Southern Secession
« Reply #52 on: May 06, 2009, 11:10:45 AM »

Hell, was it worth over 600,000 deaths to keep his little empire together? I don't think so.

It wasn't "his little empire". It was, and is, the United States of America, and he was elected president for the purpose of defeating the traitors who had torn apart the United States of America. Which he did quite handily.

Handily? Hundreds of thousands dead, the place torn all to hell? For what... so everyone could live fat, dumb, and happy under the same rectangle of colorful cloth? Dude, I don't wanna know what's in your Kool-aid.

As for secession and treason never being the answer, I'd bet you think Hitler must have been in the right, or Stalin. I mean, they were in power, so any sort of rebellion against them would be, by your apparent definition, Wrong.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2009, 11:12:48 AM by Santiago Johimbe »
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NHArticleTen

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Re: The Truth About The Civil War and Southern Secession
« Reply #53 on: May 06, 2009, 11:17:22 AM »

Hell, was it worth over 600,000 deaths to keep his little empire together? I don't think so.

It wasn't "his little empire". It was, and is, the United States of America, and he was elected president for the purpose of defeating the traitors who had torn apart the United States of America. Which he did quite handily.

Handily? Hundreds of thousands dead, the place torn all to hell? For what... so everyone could live fat, dumb, and happy under the same rectangle of colorful cloth? Dude, I don't wanna know what's in your Kool-aid.

As for secession and treason never being the answer, I'd bet you think Hitler must have been in the right, or Stalin. I mean, they were in power, so any sort of rebellion against them would be, by your apparent definition, Wrong.


the Lukster's killer-kool-aid is some really nasty evil stuff...

Luke is the type of person that would actually require refusing and repelling and destroying and eliminating...

Sad, but true...

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Dylboz

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Re: The Truth About The Civil War and Southern Secession
« Reply #54 on: May 06, 2009, 11:52:44 AM »

He gonna get the government he desires, and he'll get it good and hard. Eventually, he will see the light, for his sake, I hope it's before he breathes his last. The notion that dudes who were alive over 200+ years ago can, in any way, bind me to their contract is absurd. He can't deal, so he just asserts, demands, dismisses, rinse, repeat. *shakes head*
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NHArticleTen

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Re: The Truth About The Civil War and Southern Secession
« Reply #55 on: May 06, 2009, 12:20:44 PM »

He gonna get the government he desires, and he'll get it good and hard. Eventually, he will see the light, for his sake, I hope it's before he breathes his last. The notion that dudes who were alive over 200+ years ago can, in any way, bind me to their contract is absurd. He can't deal, so he just asserts, demands, dismisses, rinse, repeat. *shakes head*

when asshats like the Lukester come around...

pull, point, and press...
repeat as necessary...


enjoy!

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libertylover

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Re: The Truth About The Civil War and Southern Secession
« Reply #56 on: May 06, 2009, 04:10:50 PM »

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Yes, it was a war for freedom just as much as the American Revolution was a war for freedom.  If you are unaware slavery was an institution before and after the Revolutionary war.  It was a war of Federalist vs States Rights Advocates.  The Federalist wanted a centralized power elite to govern the nation.  More populated area or richer areas would influence government to take from the less populated and less wealthy areas.
Don't give me this "States' Rights" crap. Remember what George Wallace said, that "States' Rights" means exactly the same as segregation? What kind of people do you think supported him? Yeah . . .

Maybe this will help you wrap your head around the concept.  It was a war of Federalist vs. Decentralized Locally Controlled Government.  The later form of government is what is in the Constitution.  The concept is local people should be involved in making choices for their communities without the heavy hand and influence of other areas which may use their superior numbers to invoke the tyranny of the majority.  Or something the founders called Mob Rule.  

And even though Rich Industrialist benefited from the 35% tariffs which bankrupted and impoverish many southerners motivating them to want to leave the union.  It also benefited Northern citizens in general because they were able to shift their tax burden onto other territories, territories which didn't have enough votes to protect itself from unjust lopsided taxes.

And Luke pick up a book sometime.  Your arguments are so wrong.  Why bother writing in the US constitution under the 10 th amendment that it is a voluntary union if it only applied up until the Constitution was signed?  And again many states own constitution made it clear that they retained their right to leave the union if they voted to do so.  It was a major deal breaker to enter into a binding constitution without the right at some future date to leave the union should it prove to be unworkable.

"That these United Colonies are, and of right ought to be, FREE AND INDEPENDENT STATES; that they are absolved from all allegiance to the British crown and that all political connection between them and the state of Great Britain is, and ought to be, totally dissolved; and that, as free and independent states, they have full power to levy war, conclude peace, contract alliances, establish commerce, and do all other acts and things which independent states may of right do" (emphasis in original).
(Note that the term "state" used here in the Declaration, is clearly used synonymously with the term "nation" for the purposes of this document; as such, the United States had no more claim in binding South Carolina or Virginia, than it had in binding England or France, and the term "United States" literally meant "United Nations.")http://www.secessionist.us/secessionist_no6.htm
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NHArticleTen

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Re: The Truth About The Civil War and Southern Secession
« Reply #57 on: May 06, 2009, 04:13:40 PM »



the Lukester doesn't do well with reason and rational logic...

hmmm....

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Andy

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Re: The Truth About The Civil War and Southern Secession
« Reply #58 on: May 06, 2009, 04:15:25 PM »

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Yes, it was a war for freedom just as much as the American Revolution was a war for freedom.

So... how much was that exactly?

Dylboz

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Re: The Truth About The Civil War and Southern Secession
« Reply #59 on: May 06, 2009, 04:57:34 PM »

Not much at all.
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