The Tax Resister Diet

[Bill Brasky]

[...]  dementia, Alzheimer's, and other neurological disorders like Autism is because of non-organic meats.  [...]

Free range meat requires a lot more land to grow, multiplying the production costs.  The future Free State Project can have (A) a great economic miracle with many of the world's brightest minds moving in, it can have (B) agricultural independence so it doesn't have to import food from countries it may be trying to secede from, which they may use as a bargaining chip to keep us under their thumb, or it can (C) retain its animal-centric food culture - pick any two.

Thats so nice that you allow land owners to utilize their land in a variety of ways. 

[AL the Inconspicuous]

Hey, we're just discussing cultural issues here - it should be rather obvious by now that we're not talking about using any kind of force.  Ultimately the only person whose diet I control is myself (and any children I may have), but I can still express an opinion about what food choices seem more or less rational in combination with other aspects of the Free Stater culture.  People shouldn't be surprised when they find that government-unsubsidized free range beef costs upwards of $80/lb!

[TimeLady Victorious]

Libman, your either/or scenario reminds me of the story of the Norse trying to be ranchers in Greenland and starving to death because they refused to eat Inuit food.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Greenland#The_demise_of_the_Greenland_Norse_settlements

Some of them probably survived, but not as Norse.

There are stories of European settlers encountering blonde-haired blue-eyed "Indians" in the 1500s.

[Bill Brasky]

Hey, we're just discussing cultural issues here - it should be rather obvious by now that we're not talking about using any kind of force.  Ultimately the only person whose diet I control is myself (and any children I may have), but I can still express an opinion about what food choices seem more or less rational in combination with other aspects of the Free Stater culture.  People shouldn't be surprised when they find that government-unsubsidized free range beef costs upwards of $80/lb!

I donno, man.  I know a lot of people with land, and a lot of people with cows.  I don't know the nitpick particulars like acre-per-head, but when you grow alfalfa, keep a dozen for milk, two bulls (in case one goes lame), it doesn't take all that  much land. 

Examples, just 'cause...

When I was growin' up, I used to have a couple buddies who worked a farm called Hayfield.  I'm guessing it was two hundred acres.  Thre was all sorts of houses (for the farm dudes) barns, and roads went hither and yon.  maybe a mile square, give or take.  Probably less.  They sold half of it to PSU, didn't even miss it.  Never really adjusted their number of animals.  They had a fuckload of cows, pigs, chickens.  Like, a LOT.  Thery probably used feed, partly, but a lot was alfalfa they hayed themselves.  Even with a quarter of those animals, they could slaughter tons of meat per week, literally, if they wanted.  A lotta times you sell the meat live. 

Y'see, you keep a number of head for milk, and they just repopulate.  Beef cattle are only 18mos to 2yr when you slaughter.  They calfed all the time, pulled 'em out with tractors sometimes, when the birth was fucked up or the bitch was young n tight.  Calfs always, plenty of 'em.  Sometimes they'd sell the cows just 'cause there was too many.  You gotta keep the bulls away from the breeding stock.  Plus the pigs n chickens.  They had meat out the ass.  You regulate the breeding, its not that hard.  Less land, less fuckin.  NBD

Nother guy, his stepdad had a bunch, smaller acreage.  They always had fallow land, they were penned but hayed, two bulls for breeding.  Couple horses, always plenty of hay without even tryin.  They just sold 'em, no slaughter.  But they sold plenty of 'em.  Maybe ten a year out of a two acre pen.  Something like that. 

You'd sell a beef cow for like 200bux, a 400 lb cow.  I'm just guessing.  They'd make 2-3000bux just from driving a tractor around, and I'm assuming they sold the milk but I donno about that, I was only there a couple times.  They all had day jobs, they just had the land-n-cows cause their family did from the last gen.  Farming all the rest was work, so they didn't do that, 'cept for some corn just for shits and giggles.  Plus a regular garden, because they always did. 

I don't think the smaller guy got any subsidy, or he'da had the whole place loaded with cow, straight out to the back wall.  He had the land for it, and so much hay he sold the extra. 

Cows aren't a big deal, man.  They fuck, you eat 'em.  Theres a LOTTA land out there, drive it some time.  It would take such an influx of people to push crops up to ridiculous cash prices, its practically incomprehensible to figure.  People usually carve their spot out of the trees and let workin' land work.  Look at all the tree covered mountain, not even touched.  People with horse sense don't plop their asses into crop land when crop land is necessary, not in large numbers.  Its too valuable because of the shape of the terrain.  Hard men with big balls and strong backs already rode every inch of that land on horseback, and pulled the trees down on the farmin' parts.  That shit's already been decided by men who know land.  It can support animal or vegetable, and plenty of it.  The part that a mans house belongs on has trees on it, there is no shortage of that either. 

[AL the Inconspicuous]

Very interesting story, Drifter, thank you.  I'm not saying it takes a shit-load of land to produce meat, only that it takes less land to feed a vegan.  New Hampshire's population density is already higher than the national average...  and its agricultural production is almost entirely animal-based (plus "junk carbs" like applies)...  Do you think the U.S. revolution could have been successful if America relied on 90% of its food being imported from England? 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Greenland#The_demise_of_the_Greenland_Norse_settlements

That's an excellent point - the kind I would have made myself if I was on the opposite side of that debate.  But my veganism is based on the economic realities of the present day (as well as my own peculiarities, like how it's easier to quit all animal products than simply try to limit them, because I'm very bad with portion control).  As I've said above, even cannibalism is justifiable in some situations.

If you're trying to survive the worsening climate in ancient Greenland, sure, seafood (including sea mammals) would make perfect sense.  Today, however, Greenland could support a far greater population if it had solar/wind-heated hydroponic greenhouses growing plant-based foods.

There are stories of European settlers encountering blonde-haired blue-eyed "Indians" in the 1500s.

It has been established that the Blond Eskimos are not genetically related to Nordic peoples, and probably have evolved their features the same way Europeans once did, but separately from them.

[Bill Brasky]

Very interesting story, Drifter, thank you.  I'm not saying it takes a shit-load of land to produce meat, only that it takes less land to feed a vegan.  New Hampshire's population density is already higher than the national average...  and its agricultural production is almost entirely animal-based (plus "junk carbs" like applies)...  Do you think the U.S. revolution could have been successful if America relied on 90% of its food being imported from England? 

Of course not.  But i also know that density is averaged along with some very dense area, and the top 2/3rds is rural.  And the bottom third.  Well...  Cannonfodder.  Stack 'em up like sand bags and use 'em for fire cover.  Or wheel choks.  Whatever.  Lay 'em out flat, land helicopters on 'em.  I'm not really what you'd call a people person. 

[anarchir]

Libman, your either/or scenario reminds me of the story of the Norse trying to be ranchers in Greenland and starving to death because they refused to eat Inuit food.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Greenland#The_demise_of_the_Greenland_Norse_settlements

Some of them probably survived, but not as Norse.

There are stories of European settlers encountering blonde-haired blue-eyed "Indians" in the 1500s.

Actually Ive heard they developed those traits the same way the european blonde-haired blue-eyes did quite naturally but pretty much separately.

[anarchir]

As far as cows go, with any grazing animal I think I should point out that how much land you need also depends on other factors.

Cows (or sheep, etc.) eat differently depending on how much land they have to choose from. If you give them a large amount of land they will pick and choose the choice and tastier greens and by the time they have eaten all of their favorites they will no longer want to eat the less wanted stuff and would rather go hungry and get skinny (meaning you would have to supplement them with hay). If you divide up your land into smaller plots then they will eat all the plant matter that can be included in their diet, and when the ground is sufficiently cleared they may be moved to another plot.  It depends on whether you can fence your land off like this or want to spend the time to move them I guess.

[AL the Inconspicuous]

Yes, you wouldn't want those cows to be half as skinny as your average human supermodel, or else the "animal rights" government-tards will raid you and take away this vital part of your food supply... 

If you use that same land to plant maize, beans, and veggies, however, you'll get like several times the protein (the commonly published numbers for meat production per acre aren't grass-fed / free-range), more total nutrients, greater health benefits, less cowshit in your nostrils, and less govertard regulation to boot!

[Bill Brasky]

I don't see where all this government regulation is coming in from.  When you're zoned Agricultural, nobody's gonna mess with you if you have a few cows.  This is just more retarded scenario hyper-exhaustive non-practical speculation based on wikipedia articles and whatever else nonsense that can be dreamed up to endlessly argue. 

You don't even need cowS, you could have COW, one - singular.  Which wouldn't be a bad idea, just in case.  Three would be ideal.  And that doesn't take much room at all.  You kill one for yourself, you got meat for the whole year.  They give milk, reproduce, and you don't have to farm as much plants and worry about the storage of these veggies in such bulk.  Why do you think animals are so prized anyways?  Because you can fuck 'em?  Chickens are even easier.  They give eggs, and you keep 'em in a little hen coop, smaller than a bedroom.  You kill one, eat it, no muss no fuss. 

I'd farm veggies anyway, but remember, you gotta harvest all that shit.  And know what you're doing with each species of plant, and how to store it.  I haven't seen any mention of that  little factoid.  How do you plan on storing all these veggies Libman?  Did you ever can vegetables in Ball jars?  LOL, I can just imagine...  You, harvesting all these acres of different plants, they'd fuckin rot. 

[TimeLady Victorious]

Usually with my garden we just eat 'em as they look ready to harvest, during the summer and autumn we usually eat well.

Then again, we live in a typical suburban home with a smallish back yard.

<I>I</I> intend to start canning next year, because hopefully we'll have moved to a house with a bigger yard by then . . . Wish we were moving to an agricultural zone so we could buy chickens and a cow.

As for the Norse thing, there are records of the "Skraelings" (potentially the Beothuk people) taking Norse children as slaves. So . . . yeah.

[AL the Inconspicuous]

Drifter still doesn't seem to understand that land isn't free, especially in New Hampshire, so you'd want to squeeze out every calorie from it that you can - but he does bring up a good point about harvesting, processing, and storage silos for grains, legumes, and root vegetables.  I always thought pickin' and shellin' beans is a great way to keep your hands busy while listening to 10 hours of podcasts and audiobooks per day - oh, what the hell, bring on the undocumentados! 

And a Russian that doesn't know how to pickle cabbage or store potatoes and buckwheat through winter isn't really a Russian! 

Greens are best grown in greenhouses, which can even be large enough to grow some fruits / berries as well (high variety at low quantity of each), and they can be heated to grow year-round, so you just eat things as they ripen.

[anarchir]

Well I think that even MORE ideally, you have no cows and only do what you do best. Your neighbor has all the cows, and you buy them from him one at a time or buy parts of a cow from him

[AL the Inconspicuous]

Well I think that even MORE ideally, you have no cows and only do what you do best. Your neighbor has all the cows, and you buy them from him one at a time or buy parts of a cow from him

I'm a big fan of division of labor, but there are some things a man should know how to do for himself: fire a gun, brush his teeth, stimulate an orgasm, reinstall an operating system, and make productive use of his land for food.  There are many things that are very easy to grow, add a lot more aesthetic and olfactory benefits that the stupid American habit of growing and trimming useless grass everywhere [NSFW], that you can hire others to plant / harvest / etc for you and still make a profit.

I myself am a programmer, not Farmer Joe, but that doesn't mean I can't invest in local agriculture and secure a reliable healthy food supply for myself and my family / friends / neighbours.

[Bill Brasky]

This is a secessionist scenario, right?  Basically a SHTF, before the SHTF.  You gotta have all your ducks in a row before the SHTF, or you're fucked. 

Well, I obviously don't own land there.  But if I did, it wouldn't be in town.  It'd be acreage.  And hopefully more than a little.  For more reasons than just farming.  I'd want extra land to allow people I like a place to put a trailer if needed, maybe eventually a little cabin for them and theirn.  Money is not a part of this picture, that can be worked out, if it even matters.  When people live somewhere, they begin to view it as theirs, which makes a great self-preservation thing.  I'm not saying I'd be "using" them, on the contrary.  Their eyes and allegiance is enough.  People always say "who goes there?" of their own free will. 

Farming comes naturally, its just something people do.  Dropping trees and tending to snow removal is entirely different.  You need people for that.  A few is plenty, but none is a bitch.  "Squeezing every calorie" out of a plot is a joke.  It doesn't work that way.  For one thing, you damage the land by taking its nutrients without practicing crop rotation.  That means you have to let portions stand fallow.  One of the things you can do with fallow land is plant clover and let animals graze it. 

Have you even ever stood in the middle of a measured acre and seen it?  Its large.  Twenty acres is huge.  You can do a lot of stuff on a relatively normal sized plot of ten or twenty, which you cannot do in mathematical extrapolation of one acre.  Fruit trees, for example, cannot be moved around.  And you can't really plant under them, because of the shade.  But animals thrive under them, from the dropped fruit, and the shit makes great organic fertilizer. 

Its true, I probably wouldn't go straight for the cow.  But I'd damn sure have chickens the first year.  Sooner than I'd put up any greenhouse of considerable size.  You gotta work what you know, and I ain't Frank Perdue, but I know a little heat and a wooden box will keep me alive all winter no matter how bad it gets, if theres chickens in it. 

This odor thing just makes you look like a effeminate twinkycake.  Fail argument, bigtime.  Keep 'em, away from the house.  Your kitchen garbage probably smells worse than a few animals would 200 yards away.