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Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith)

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Re: The Legal System In A Free Society
« Reply #30 on: March 16, 2010, 07:19:24 AM »



?

? My Ass

Bring them onto my lawn. 

Dude, if I fucked you over in any sort of a dispute.  And you tried to fix it with them, it would hold no authority over me.  It requires me to acknowledge their authority, and they have none. 

I don't give a fuck what they want. 

What makes you think I would have any professional dealings with you?

This may make me sound like an asshole, but whatever. I live in a segregated community that lets me have the enjoyment of only being around the kind of people I would normally associate with. My landlord for example didn't bother to write up any sort of contract. If ever something arose, I know I could call up the nearest Jewish court, and he would show up and comply with the ruling.

The issue of force doesn't come in for a number of reasons. For one, refusal to comply would end with someone having their name printed in the newspaper with instructions for everyone to excommunicate the person. So this noncompliant person would off the boat lose all their friends, family, probably be forced into a divorce, and possibly their job.

Another factor is that its a system that people know they opt into by living in such a community.

What makes you think in an extreme situation (which is the measure of effectiveness) someone will just allow it?  Will their faith be a big enough reason to take a massive blow to their solvency? 

Try and tell me the Bernie Madoff's of the world will just say "okay" when the Jew Police arrive for a chat.  Even 1/1000th of the size, a crooked accountant, or an embezzler.  Not gonna happen. 

Having your status ruined only matters to upstanding citizens, and even then, not so much.  Ruined credit doesn't frighten me if I pay cash for a house.  Target is gonna deny my business, won't sell me a lamp?  I go years without transacting on a higher level than buying food and cigarettes.  You don't confirm identity for normal purchases, you are anonymous. 
It's different when the vast majority of your business transactions occur within a very closely knit society and your own belief system keeps your transactions within that society.
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NotYourSlave

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Re: The Legal System In A Free Society
« Reply #31 on: March 16, 2010, 07:37:15 AM »

I'm not saying its wrong.  I'm saying it probably wouldn't go the way y'all think it will. 

The world is corrupt. 

Which is why you don't institute a monopoly of power and force.

Round and round and round and round. 

Nope, you just skirted the logical conclusion.  If people are corrupt, the last thing you do is give them a monopoly on force.
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NotYourSlave

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Re: The Legal System In A Free Society
« Reply #32 on: March 16, 2010, 07:37:59 AM »

If the society were truly free it would mean you'd have to gather up a bunch of vigilantes to stop someone from killing a lot of people. And even then they'd probably make lots of mistakes.

It's the reason why I prefer our current legal system.

That's fine that you prefer it.  But I don't, and therefore, shouldn't be forced to use and pay for it.
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TimeLady Victorious

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Re: The Legal System In A Free Society
« Reply #33 on: March 16, 2010, 09:47:43 AM »

If the society were truly free it would mean you'd have to gather up a bunch of vigilantes to stop someone from killing a lot of people. And even then they'd probably make lots of mistakes.

It's the reason why I prefer our current legal system.

That's fine that you prefer it.  But I don't, and therefore, shouldn't be forced to use and pay for it.

Too fucking bad. Here in the "real world" you'd have opposing armies fighting each other for the right to govern if anything like that came into being.

Sort of like in Somalia, the libertarian paradise.
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Diogenes The Cynic

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Re: The Legal System In A Free Society
« Reply #34 on: March 16, 2010, 10:01:30 AM »





What makes you think I would have any professional dealings with you?

This may make me sound like an asshole, but whatever. I live in a segregated community that lets me have the enjoyment of only being around the kind of people I would normally associate with. My landlord for example didn't bother to write up any sort of contract. If ever something arose, I know I could call up the nearest Jewish court, and he would show up and comply with the ruling.

The issue of force doesn't come in for a number of reasons. For one, refusal to comply would end with someone having their name printed in the newspaper with instructions for everyone to excommunicate the person. So this noncompliant person would off the boat lose all their friends, family, probably be forced into a divorce, and possibly their job.

Another factor is that its a system that people know they opt into by living in such a community.

What makes you think in an extreme situation (which is the measure of effectiveness) someone will just allow it?  Will their faith be a big enough reason to take a massive blow to their solvency? 

Try and tell me the Bernie Madoff's of the world will just say "okay" when the Jew Police arrive for a chat.  Even 1/1000th of the size, a crooked accountant, or an embezzler.  Not gonna happen. 

Having your status ruined only matters to upstanding citizens, and even then, not so much.  Ruined credit doesn't frighten me if I pay cash for a house.  Target is gonna deny my business, won't sell me a lamp?  I go years without transacting on a higher level than buying food and cigarettes.  You don't confirm identity for normal purchases, you are anonymous. 

The community I live in has the lowest violent crime rate of any town in America. If you factor out the non-Jewish areas of Ramapo, its even lower. So they only real fear you could have is of white collar crime.

It happens, but people who ruin their name in the community tend to leave, and not come back. Total social ostracism doesn't seem worth it to steal a few bucks, and even if you don't care about your own reputation, you could cause a situation that would prevent your children from ever getting married. Its not a perfect system, but its pretty damn good.
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NotYourSlave

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Re: The Legal System In A Free Society
« Reply #35 on: March 16, 2010, 10:10:14 AM »

If the society were truly free it would mean you'd have to gather up a bunch of vigilantes to stop someone from killing a lot of people. And even then they'd probably make lots of mistakes.

It's the reason why I prefer our current legal system.

That's fine that you prefer it.  But I don't, and therefore, shouldn't be forced to use and pay for it.

Too fucking bad. Here in the "real world" you'd have opposing armies fighting each other for the right to govern if anything like that came into being.

Sort of like in Somalia, the libertarian paradise.

No, not too f’ing bad.  That isn’t even attempt at a logical justification.  That’s a punt.  How come you get what you prefer but I don’t get what I prefer?  Your logic isn’t consistent at all; therefore, it’s not valid.  Why am I not free to disagree?

If you think Somalia is an example of libertarianism, you need to study more about Somalia and libertarianism. That’s an atrocious comparison.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2010, 10:17:10 AM by NotYourSlave »
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mikehz

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Re: The Legal System In A Free Society
« Reply #36 on: March 16, 2010, 10:18:28 AM »

I've been dealing with the "Antis" (those who insist that this or that privatization can't work because it does not currently exist) all my life.

I was told that "gold will never be legal to own, since it will bring about the collapse of the monetary system."

I was told that "the draft can't possible be ended, since no one will willingly join the army."

I was told "homosexuality won't be legalized, since it will bring the ruin of marriage."

I suppose that if private insurance companies didn't exist, and some guy proposed that people pool their risks, the Antis would raise wild objections. "Why, that can't possibly work! Only the rich would benefit! Besides, it hasn't already been done, therefore we KNOW it can't work!"

I have absolutely no idea exactly how private justice would work. Probably much the way private justice systems currently work (mutual arbitration). But, maybe things will work out differently in a free market. In any case, it's doubtful it can be any worse than the current government monopoly, in which 1) all participants (police, judge, defense, prosecutor, jailer) work for the same agency, 2) laws are too complex and numerous for anyone to actually understand, and 3) the government actually has a vested interest in people violating as many laws as possible.

However, to be fair, I am not an anarchist, but a minimalist. I do think that--at least for now--a minimal state is needed; one strictly limited to operating the police (though using private contractors, as is done in some municipalities now), a court system (as back-up to private arbitration), and an all-volunteer military (for purely defensive purposes). This should be paid for through non-coercive means. (Which is the subject for another thread.)

I'm simply discribing the theory for a non-government justice system.
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TimeLady Victorious

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Re: The Legal System In A Free Society
« Reply #37 on: March 16, 2010, 10:20:26 AM »

If the society were truly free it would mean you'd have to gather up a bunch of vigilantes to stop someone from killing a lot of people. And even then they'd probably make lots of mistakes.

It's the reason why I prefer our current legal system.

That's fine that you prefer it.  But I don't, and therefore, shouldn't be forced to use and pay for it.

Too fucking bad. Here in the "real world" you'd have opposing armies fighting each other for the right to govern if anything like that came into being.

Sort of like in Somalia, the libertarian paradise.

No, not too f’ing bad.  That isn’t even attempt at a logical justification.  That’s a punt.  How come you get what you prefer but I don’t get what I prefer?  Your logic isn’t consistent at all; therefore, it’s not valid.  Why am I not free to disagree?

If you think Somalia is an example of libertarianism, you need to study more about Somalia and libertarianism. That’s an atrocious comparison.


No, it's a perfectly good comparison.

You are reminding me of socialists who get butthurt about people pointing out that Communism doesn't work because of the example of the Soviet Union. "Oh, but that's not TRUE Communism!" they cry.

Somalia is pretty much as an anarcho-capitalist libertarian area as you can possibly get on Earth. It doesn't work.
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davann

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Re: The Legal System In A Free Society
« Reply #38 on: March 16, 2010, 10:55:45 AM »

If the society were truly free it would mean you'd have to gather up a bunch of vigilantes to stop someone from killing a lot of people. And even then they'd probably make lots of mistakes.

It's the reason why I prefer our current legal system.

That's fine that you prefer it.  But I don't, and therefore, shouldn't be forced to use and pay for it.

Too fucking bad. Here in the "real world" you'd have opposing armies fighting each other for the right to govern if anything like that came into being.

Sort of like in Somalia, the libertarian paradise.

No, not too f’ing bad.  That isn’t even attempt at a logical justification.  That’s a punt.  How come you get what you prefer but I don’t get what I prefer?  Your logic isn’t consistent at all; therefore, it’s not valid.  Why am I not free to disagree?

If you think Somalia is an example of libertarianism, you need to study more about Somalia and libertarianism. That’s an atrocious comparison.


No, it's a perfectly good comparison.

You are reminding me of socialists who get butthurt about people pointing out that Communism doesn't work because of the example of the Soviet Union. "Oh, but that's not TRUE Communism!" they cry.

Somalia is pretty much as an anarcho-capitalist libertarian area as you can possibly get on Earth. It doesn't work.

How does it not work? For the most part it appears to be working to me. Granted, when a large shipment of aid arrives there tends to be fighting over it but that should be viewed as a result of an outside influence. I'm just not getting how it doesn't work.
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TimeLady Victorious

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Re: The Legal System In A Free Society
« Reply #39 on: March 16, 2010, 11:20:42 AM »

If the society were truly free it would mean you'd have to gather up a bunch of vigilantes to stop someone from killing a lot of people. And even then they'd probably make lots of mistakes.

It's the reason why I prefer our current legal system.

That's fine that you prefer it.  But I don't, and therefore, shouldn't be forced to use and pay for it.

Too fucking bad. Here in the "real world" you'd have opposing armies fighting each other for the right to govern if anything like that came into being.

Sort of like in Somalia, the libertarian paradise.

No, not too f’ing bad.  That isn’t even attempt at a logical justification.  That’s a punt.  How come you get what you prefer but I don’t get what I prefer?  Your logic isn’t consistent at all; therefore, it’s not valid.  Why am I not free to disagree?

If you think Somalia is an example of libertarianism, you need to study more about Somalia and libertarianism. That’s an atrocious comparison.


No, it's a perfectly good comparison.

You are reminding me of socialists who get butthurt about people pointing out that Communism doesn't work because of the example of the Soviet Union. "Oh, but that's not TRUE Communism!" they cry.

Somalia is pretty much as an anarcho-capitalist libertarian area as you can possibly get on Earth. It doesn't work.

How does it not work? For the most part it appears to be working to me. Granted, when a large shipment of aid arrives there tends to be fighting over it but that should be viewed as a result of an outside influence. I'm just not getting how it doesn't work.

Outside of Somaliland, it doesn't seem to be working at all.

Guess what's in Somaliland? A functional government.
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NotYourSlave

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Re: The Legal System In A Free Society
« Reply #40 on: March 16, 2010, 01:04:23 PM »

If the society were truly free it would mean you'd have to gather up a bunch of vigilantes to stop someone from killing a lot of people. And even then they'd probably make lots of mistakes.

It's the reason why I prefer our current legal system.

That's fine that you prefer it.  But I don't, and therefore, shouldn't be forced to use and pay for it.

Too fucking bad. Here in the "real world" you'd have opposing armies fighting each other for the right to govern if anything like that came into being.

Sort of like in Somalia, the libertarian paradise.

No, not too f’ing bad.  That isn’t even attempt at a logical justification.  That’s a punt.  How come you get what you prefer but I don’t get what I prefer?  Your logic isn’t consistent at all; therefore, it’s not valid.  Why am I not free to disagree?

If you think Somalia is an example of libertarianism, you need to study more about Somalia and libertarianism. That’s an atrocious comparison.


No, it's a perfectly good comparison.

You are reminding me of socialists who get butthurt about people pointing out that Communism doesn't work because of the example of the Soviet Union. "Oh, but that's not TRUE Communism!" they cry.

Somalia is pretty much as an anarcho-capitalist libertarian area as you can possibly get on Earth. It doesn't work.

Ok, well if it’s a perfectly good comparison, please show how Somalia is an anarcho capitalist libertarian society.
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NotYourSlave

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Re: The Legal System In A Free Society
« Reply #41 on: March 16, 2010, 01:07:45 PM »

I've been dealing with the "Antis" (those who insist that this or that privatization can't work because it does not currently exist) all my life.

I was told that "gold will never be legal to own, since it will bring about the collapse of the monetary system."

I was told that "the draft can't possible be ended, since no one will willingly join the army."

I was told "homosexuality won't be legalized, since it will bring the ruin of marriage."

I suppose that if private insurance companies didn't exist, and some guy proposed that people pool their risks, the Antis would raise wild objections. "Why, that can't possibly work! Only the rich would benefit! Besides, it hasn't already been done, therefore we KNOW it can't work!"

I have absolutely no idea exactly how private justice would work. Probably much the way private justice systems currently work (mutual arbitration). But, maybe things will work out differently in a free market. In any case, it's doubtful it can be any worse than the current government monopoly, in which 1) all participants (police, judge, defense, prosecutor, jailer) work for the same agency, 2) laws are too complex and numerous for anyone to actually understand, and 3) the government actually has a vested interest in people violating as many laws as possible.

However, to be fair, I am not an anarchist, but a minimalist. I do think that--at least for now--a minimal state is needed; one strictly limited to operating the police (though using private contractors, as is done in some municipalities now), a court system (as back-up to private arbitration), and an all-volunteer military (for purely defensive purposes). This should be paid for through non-coercive means. (Which is the subject for another thread.)

I'm simply discribing the theory for a non-government justice system.

Also:

“Well, we can’t free the slaves:  they’ll never find a job, they’ll commit crimes against us, etc!”

It’s the same argument every time.  Too bad freedom and competition is always better than statism and monopolies.
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TimeLady Victorious

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Re: The Legal System In A Free Society
« Reply #42 on: March 16, 2010, 02:34:28 PM »

If the society were truly free it would mean you'd have to gather up a bunch of vigilantes to stop someone from killing a lot of people. And even then they'd probably make lots of mistakes.

It's the reason why I prefer our current legal system.

That's fine that you prefer it.  But I don't, and therefore, shouldn't be forced to use and pay for it.

Too fucking bad. Here in the "real world" you'd have opposing armies fighting each other for the right to govern if anything like that came into being.

Sort of like in Somalia, the libertarian paradise.

No, not too f’ing bad.  That isn’t even attempt at a logical justification.  That’s a punt.  How come you get what you prefer but I don’t get what I prefer?  Your logic isn’t consistent at all; therefore, it’s not valid.  Why am I not free to disagree?

If you think Somalia is an example of libertarianism, you need to study more about Somalia and libertarianism. That’s an atrocious comparison.


No, it's a perfectly good comparison.

You are reminding me of socialists who get butthurt about people pointing out that Communism doesn't work because of the example of the Soviet Union. "Oh, but that's not TRUE Communism!" they cry.

Somalia is pretty much as an anarcho-capitalist libertarian area as you can possibly get on Earth. It doesn't work.

Ok, well if it’s a perfectly good comparison, please show how Somalia is an anarcho capitalist libertarian society.

Well, first off, there is no government. There is, literally, an anarchic state in Somalia. There are rival factions, but there is no central authority.

Secondly, there are no business regulations. There are competing businesses (I think Ian used to talk about the cell phone companies in Somalia as a perfect example of how an anarcho-capitalist society would work?) but again, there is no authority to regulate them. The businesses are completely unregulated.

Thirdly, in case you don't understand this yet, there is no government in Somalia. Every business there is regulated by the market and pretty much the market alone. And guess what? It hasn't worked. Somalia is a country known for lawlessness, piracy, and a very, very low standard of living. And that is what anarcho-capitalism has brought to Somalia.
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davann

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Re: The Legal System In A Free Society
« Reply #43 on: March 17, 2010, 12:39:28 AM »


Thirdly, in case you don't understand this yet, there is no government in Somalia. Every business there is regulated by the market and pretty much the market alone. And guess what? It hasn't worked. Somalia is a country known for lawlessness, piracy, and a very, very low standard of living. And that is what anarcho-capitalism has brought to Somalia.

I sincerely doubt this. If all you are going by is the same corrupted media to get your info then my doubt will remain. I know a small kernel of truth broke through the propaganda there with the documentary on the tribes that live outside of the densely populated areas. Those tribes function extremely well.

Pirates are dealt with by the international community. Just like violent criminals are every where. I do not think anacho-capitalism includes an inherent belief violent individuals will cease to exist.

I don't know anything about the cell phone companies but it would seem logical that people that deal with unregulated businesses on a regular basis would be quick to drop services from unscrupulous ones.
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TimeLady Victorious

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Re: The Legal System In A Free Society
« Reply #44 on: March 17, 2010, 12:50:42 AM »


Thirdly, in case you don't understand this yet, there is no government in Somalia. Every business there is regulated by the market and pretty much the market alone. And guess what? It hasn't worked. Somalia is a country known for lawlessness, piracy, and a very, very low standard of living. And that is what anarcho-capitalism has brought to Somalia.

I sincerely doubt this. If all you are going by is the same corrupted media to get your info then my doubt will remain. I know a small kernel of truth broke through the propaganda there with the documentary on the tribes that live outside of the densely populated areas. Those tribes function extremely well.

Pirates are dealt with by the international community. Just like violent criminals are every where. I do not think anacho-capitalism includes an inherent belief violent individuals will cease to exist.

I don't know anything about the cell phone companies but it would seem logical that people that deal with unregulated businesses on a regular basis would be quick to drop services from unscrupulous ones.

Fine, then I guess there's a government for Somalia for some areas. (Tribalism is a form of government.)

It also would not be a functional government for the USA, especially since the vast, vast majority of Americans live in urban areas.
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