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Author Topic: The Legal System In A Free Society  (Read 5757 times)

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davann

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Re: The Legal System In A Free Society
« Reply #15 on: March 15, 2010, 03:11:13 PM »

Ya know, I've heard about early Christians that used their own justice system. Kinda like what is used in that fucked up country now that does have an official government. Somalia I think. The tribesmen in the bush have a tribal leader resolve disputes between members of the same tribe. Disputes between tribes is a resolution provided by the a third tribal leader. It seems to work because of the realities of their society. Like the early Christians. Of course, the tribal system is backed up by a real punishment like banishment to a harsh environment. The Christian worked for awhile too but I believe because of the tightness of the society that came as a result of extreme persecution by the existing authorities. The zealotry of following the religious dogma helped also.

I think even a free market solution would have be accepted by the majority of society as legitimate. Without legitimacy it would come crashing down. I do not see how a whole society could be made to view a system as legitimate without the threat of real force, either internal or external. Large groups just work that way with out it.
  
« Last Edit: March 15, 2010, 03:13:37 PM by davann »
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Bill Brasky

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Re: The Legal System In A Free Society
« Reply #16 on: March 15, 2010, 04:04:45 PM »


I'd subscribe to the really expensive one owned by Dick Cheney, and everyone who pissed me off would get a trip to the bottom in a shark cage. 

The rich already get preferential treatment in the public legal system. They just hire a powerful politically-connected lawyer to represent them. What--you think OJ really was innocent?

In any case, it's highly doubtful that Cheney's DRO would have many other companies willing to deal with it, since it would have a bad rep for shenanigans.

Ya, highly doubtful.  Whether you realize it or not, we (meaning this BBS and its denizens) are the oddballs.  Most of the country is hawkish.  Cheney's companies are very successful.  God, guns and guts give many people priapism. 

And also, where I come from, these so-called private law-enforcement specialists, which is just a polite euphemism for mercenary?  Taking me into custody is a really bad idea.  Its kidnapping.  Calling it custody legitimizes it, but if I don't recognize their "authority", all they are is goons.  I don't know where they're taking me, or what their treatment will be like.  That would require me to be something of an expert on all these organizations and their practices, much like I don't know all the insurance companies in operation.  They don't all have to be western-styled in an equal opportunity world.  It could be the Shariah Law Corp on my porch.  Wouldn't that be a hoot, watching them take your wife or daughter? 

Not happening, bud. 

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mikehz

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Re: The Legal System In A Free Society
« Reply #17 on: March 15, 2010, 08:07:54 PM »

Ya, highly doubtful.  Whether you realize it or not, we (meaning this BBS and its denizens) are the oddballs.  Most of the country is hawkish.  Cheney's companies are very successful.  God, guns and guts give many people priapism.

Really? You'd enter into a deal with a company you knew to be shady? Would you also buy insurance from a company you knew might not pay out when you needed it? To each his own, I suppose.  :?

Quote
And also, where I come from, these so-called private law-enforcement specialists, which is just a polite euphemism for mercenary?  Taking me into custody is a really bad idea.  Its kidnapping. 

Yet, kidnapping is suddenly okay when the government does it?

Look, if a DRO is known to do terrible things, and treat people unfairly, who the HELL is going to deal with them? Cheney's companies are successful because GOVERNMENT deals with them, handing them sweet deals. In an actual free market, where they have to deal with real people in the real world, this isn't going to be the case. "Yeah, I know they're crooked and probably won't hold up their end of the deal. But, you have to weight that against the low price they're offering." If you actually LIKE that sort of deal, then go for it!
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"Force always attracts men of low morality." Albert Einstein

Bill Brasky

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Re: The Legal System In A Free Society
« Reply #18 on: March 15, 2010, 09:19:00 PM »

Ya, highly doubtful.  Whether you realize it or not, we (meaning this BBS and its denizens) are the oddballs.  Most of the country is hawkish.  Cheney's companies are very successful.  God, guns and guts give many people priapism.

Really? You'd enter into a deal with a company you knew to be shady? Would you also buy insurance from a company you knew might not pay out when you needed it? To each his own, I suppose.  :?


If I had to choose a company, I'd want one thats juiced and never loses a case. 




Yet, kidnapping is suddenly okay when the government does it?

Look, if a DRO is known to do terrible things, and treat people unfairly, who the HELL is going to deal with them? Cheney's companies are successful because GOVERNMENT deals with them, handing them sweet deals. In an actual free market, where they have to deal with real people in the real world, this isn't going to be the case. "Yeah, I know they're crooked and probably won't hold up their end of the deal. But, you have to weight that against the low price they're offering." If you actually LIKE that sort of deal, then go for it!

No, kidnapping is not okay when the cops do it.  How am I saying its okay?  But the fact remains, they are held to a public standard.  Its called transparency.  Does that mean all arrests are executed properly?  No.  But you rarely end up in Guantanamo-style conditions when cops take you.  And you can't guarantee that wouldn't happen with rogue agencies.  It doesn't matter if "most" people would transact with them - bounty hunters are an excellent example.  They often take cops who can't get cop jobs, and I think we both know a cop who can't get a cop-job is probably pretty fucking dangerous. 

I think the people who believe this crap will work properly are operating in a total fantasy world.  They are not acknowledging the less civilized aspects that are bound to flourish. 

Private security is totally hardcore and operates at whatever level their clients pay for.  Force is a atmosphere of escalation and one-upmanship.  It never becomes "less forceful".  Ignoring that fact is to ignore the nature of man.  And to that end, I would hire the most ruthless bunch of motherfuckers in the biz - if I hired any at all.  A DRO would have an enforcement branch and a legal branch.  Its pretty unlikely it would be just a legal service.  If you just wanted legal dispute representation, you'd hire it as needed, just like you do now - they're called lawyers. 
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NotYourSlave

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Re: The Legal System In A Free Society
« Reply #19 on: March 15, 2010, 10:16:51 PM »

Ya, highly doubtful.  Whether you realize it or not, we (meaning this BBS and its denizens) are the oddballs.  Most of the country is hawkish.  Cheney's companies are very successful.  God, guns and guts give many people priapism.

Really? You'd enter into a deal with a company you knew to be shady? Would you also buy insurance from a company you knew might not pay out when you needed it? To each his own, I suppose.  :?


If I had to choose a company, I'd want one thats juiced and never loses a case. 




Yet, kidnapping is suddenly okay when the government does it?

Look, if a DRO is known to do terrible things, and treat people unfairly, who the HELL is going to deal with them? Cheney's companies are successful because GOVERNMENT deals with them, handing them sweet deals. In an actual free market, where they have to deal with real people in the real world, this isn't going to be the case. "Yeah, I know they're crooked and probably won't hold up their end of the deal. But, you have to weight that against the low price they're offering." If you actually LIKE that sort of deal, then go for it!

No, kidnapping is not okay when the cops do it.  How am I saying its okay?  But the fact remains, they are held to a public standard.  Its called transparency.  Does that mean all arrests are executed properly?  No.  But you rarely end up in Guantanamo-style conditions when cops take you.  And you can't guarantee that wouldn't happen with rogue agencies.  It doesn't matter if "most" people would transact with them - bounty hunters are an excellent example.  They often take cops who can't get cop jobs, and I think we both know a cop who can't get a cop-job is probably pretty fucking dangerous. 

I think the people who believe this crap will work properly are operating in a total fantasy world.  They are not acknowledging the less civilized aspects that are bound to flourish. 

Private security is totally hardcore and operates at whatever level their clients pay for.  Force is a atmosphere of escalation and one-upmanship.  It never becomes "less forceful".  Ignoring that fact is to ignore the nature of man.  And to that end, I would hire the most ruthless bunch of motherfuckers in the biz - if I hired any at all.  A DRO would have an enforcement branch and a legal branch.  Its pretty unlikely it would be just a legal service.  If you just wanted legal dispute representation, you'd hire it as needed, just like you do now - they're called lawyers. 

Any fear you have should be one more strike against a monopolized system - since there is no competition.
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Bill Brasky

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Re: The Legal System In A Free Society
« Reply #20 on: March 15, 2010, 10:53:49 PM »

Ya, highly doubtful.  Whether you realize it or not, we (meaning this BBS and its denizens) are the oddballs.  Most of the country is hawkish.  Cheney's companies are very successful.  God, guns and guts give many people priapism.

Really? You'd enter into a deal with a company you knew to be shady? Would you also buy insurance from a company you knew might not pay out when you needed it? To each his own, I suppose.  :?


If I had to choose a company, I'd want one thats juiced and never loses a case. 




Yet, kidnapping is suddenly okay when the government does it?

Look, if a DRO is known to do terrible things, and treat people unfairly, who the HELL is going to deal with them? Cheney's companies are successful because GOVERNMENT deals with them, handing them sweet deals. In an actual free market, where they have to deal with real people in the real world, this isn't going to be the case. "Yeah, I know they're crooked and probably won't hold up their end of the deal. But, you have to weight that against the low price they're offering." If you actually LIKE that sort of deal, then go for it!

No, kidnapping is not okay when the cops do it.  How am I saying its okay?  But the fact remains, they are held to a public standard.  Its called transparency.  Does that mean all arrests are executed properly?  No.  But you rarely end up in Guantanamo-style conditions when cops take you.  And you can't guarantee that wouldn't happen with rogue agencies.  It doesn't matter if "most" people would transact with them - bounty hunters are an excellent example.  They often take cops who can't get cop jobs, and I think we both know a cop who can't get a cop-job is probably pretty fucking dangerous. 

I think the people who believe this crap will work properly are operating in a total fantasy world.  They are not acknowledging the less civilized aspects that are bound to flourish. 

Private security is totally hardcore and operates at whatever level their clients pay for.  Force is a atmosphere of escalation and one-upmanship.  It never becomes "less forceful".  Ignoring that fact is to ignore the nature of man.  And to that end, I would hire the most ruthless bunch of motherfuckers in the biz - if I hired any at all.  A DRO would have an enforcement branch and a legal branch.  Its pretty unlikely it would be just a legal service.  If you just wanted legal dispute representation, you'd hire it as needed, just like you do now - they're called lawyers. 

Any fear you have should be one more strike against a monopolized system - since there is no competition.

Maybe you should stop thinking I am "pro-system" and start thinking I am anti-fantasy. 

Anyone who wants to sit around and talk fantasy is free to do so.  But when you're sitting there discussing Batman Vs. Superman, just realize how ridiculous it sounds.  I may participate in the discussion for fun, but I exist in reality.  Reality is the thing that effects my real life.  I'm more interested in preserving and protecting that, especially since none of this fantasy stuff will ever become reality - and thats probably a good thing, because I suspect it would be a clusterfuck.

I'm not all fired up or anything.  Just saying, its a mental exercise. 
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NotYourSlave

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Re: The Legal System In A Free Society
« Reply #21 on: March 15, 2010, 11:10:30 PM »

Ya, highly doubtful.  Whether you realize it or not, we (meaning this BBS and its denizens) are the oddballs.  Most of the country is hawkish.  Cheney's companies are very successful.  God, guns and guts give many people priapism.

Really? You'd enter into a deal with a company you knew to be shady? Would you also buy insurance from a company you knew might not pay out when you needed it? To each his own, I suppose.  :?


If I had to choose a company, I'd want one thats juiced and never loses a case. 




Yet, kidnapping is suddenly okay when the government does it?

Look, if a DRO is known to do terrible things, and treat people unfairly, who the HELL is going to deal with them? Cheney's companies are successful because GOVERNMENT deals with them, handing them sweet deals. In an actual free market, where they have to deal with real people in the real world, this isn't going to be the case. "Yeah, I know they're crooked and probably won't hold up their end of the deal. But, you have to weight that against the low price they're offering." If you actually LIKE that sort of deal, then go for it!

No, kidnapping is not okay when the cops do it.  How am I saying its okay?  But the fact remains, they are held to a public standard.  Its called transparency.  Does that mean all arrests are executed properly?  No.  But you rarely end up in Guantanamo-style conditions when cops take you.  And you can't guarantee that wouldn't happen with rogue agencies.  It doesn't matter if "most" people would transact with them - bounty hunters are an excellent example.  They often take cops who can't get cop jobs, and I think we both know a cop who can't get a cop-job is probably pretty fucking dangerous. 

I think the people who believe this crap will work properly are operating in a total fantasy world.  They are not acknowledging the less civilized aspects that are bound to flourish. 

Private security is totally hardcore and operates at whatever level their clients pay for.  Force is a atmosphere of escalation and one-upmanship.  It never becomes "less forceful".  Ignoring that fact is to ignore the nature of man.  And to that end, I would hire the most ruthless bunch of motherfuckers in the biz - if I hired any at all.  A DRO would have an enforcement branch and a legal branch.  Its pretty unlikely it would be just a legal service.  If you just wanted legal dispute representation, you'd hire it as needed, just like you do now - they're called lawyers. 

Any fear you have should be one more strike against a monopolized system - since there is no competition.

Maybe you should stop thinking I am "pro-system" and start thinking I am anti-fantasy. 

Anyone who wants to sit around and talk fantasy is free to do so.  But when you're sitting there discussing Batman Vs. Superman, just realize how ridiculous it sounds.  I may participate in the discussion for fun, but I exist in reality.  Reality is the thing that effects my real life.  I'm more interested in preserving and protecting that, especially since none of this fantasy stuff will ever become reality - and thats probably a good thing, because I suspect it would be a clusterfuck.

I'm not all fired up or anything.  Just saying, its a mental exercise. 


Where did I ever even suggest it would become reality?  My point is that competition is always better.  Just because most people can't wrap their head around it doesn't mean it's not true. 
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Bill Brasky

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Re: The Legal System In A Free Society
« Reply #22 on: March 15, 2010, 11:40:05 PM »

Ya, highly doubtful.  Whether you realize it or not, we (meaning this BBS and its denizens) are the oddballs.  Most of the country is hawkish.  Cheney's companies are very successful.  God, guns and guts give many people priapism.

Really? You'd enter into a deal with a company you knew to be shady? Would you also buy insurance from a company you knew might not pay out when you needed it? To each his own, I suppose.  :?


If I had to choose a company, I'd want one thats juiced and never loses a case. 




Yet, kidnapping is suddenly okay when the government does it?

Look, if a DRO is known to do terrible things, and treat people unfairly, who the HELL is going to deal with them? Cheney's companies are successful because GOVERNMENT deals with them, handing them sweet deals. In an actual free market, where they have to deal with real people in the real world, this isn't going to be the case. "Yeah, I know they're crooked and probably won't hold up their end of the deal. But, you have to weight that against the low price they're offering." If you actually LIKE that sort of deal, then go for it!

No, kidnapping is not okay when the cops do it.  How am I saying its okay?  But the fact remains, they are held to a public standard.  Its called transparency.  Does that mean all arrests are executed properly?  No.  But you rarely end up in Guantanamo-style conditions when cops take you.  And you can't guarantee that wouldn't happen with rogue agencies.  It doesn't matter if "most" people would transact with them - bounty hunters are an excellent example.  They often take cops who can't get cop jobs, and I think we both know a cop who can't get a cop-job is probably pretty fucking dangerous. 

I think the people who believe this crap will work properly are operating in a total fantasy world.  They are not acknowledging the less civilized aspects that are bound to flourish. 

Private security is totally hardcore and operates at whatever level their clients pay for.  Force is a atmosphere of escalation and one-upmanship.  It never becomes "less forceful".  Ignoring that fact is to ignore the nature of man.  And to that end, I would hire the most ruthless bunch of motherfuckers in the biz - if I hired any at all.  A DRO would have an enforcement branch and a legal branch.  Its pretty unlikely it would be just a legal service.  If you just wanted legal dispute representation, you'd hire it as needed, just like you do now - they're called lawyers. 

Any fear you have should be one more strike against a monopolized system - since there is no competition.

Maybe you should stop thinking I am "pro-system" and start thinking I am anti-fantasy. 

Anyone who wants to sit around and talk fantasy is free to do so.  But when you're sitting there discussing Batman Vs. Superman, just realize how ridiculous it sounds.  I may participate in the discussion for fun, but I exist in reality.  Reality is the thing that effects my real life.  I'm more interested in preserving and protecting that, especially since none of this fantasy stuff will ever become reality - and thats probably a good thing, because I suspect it would be a clusterfuck.

I'm not all fired up or anything.  Just saying, its a mental exercise. 


Where did I ever even suggest it would become reality?  My point is that competition is always better.  Just because most people can't wrap their head around it doesn't mean it's not true. 

Ever heard of the law of unintended consequences? 
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NotYourSlave

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Re: The Legal System In A Free Society
« Reply #23 on: March 15, 2010, 11:46:52 PM »

Ya, highly doubtful.  Whether you realize it or not, we (meaning this BBS and its denizens) are the oddballs.  Most of the country is hawkish.  Cheney's companies are very successful.  God, guns and guts give many people priapism.

Really? You'd enter into a deal with a company you knew to be shady? Would you also buy insurance from a company you knew might not pay out when you needed it? To each his own, I suppose.  :?


If I had to choose a company, I'd want one thats juiced and never loses a case. 




Yet, kidnapping is suddenly okay when the government does it?

Look, if a DRO is known to do terrible things, and treat people unfairly, who the HELL is going to deal with them? Cheney's companies are successful because GOVERNMENT deals with them, handing them sweet deals. In an actual free market, where they have to deal with real people in the real world, this isn't going to be the case. "Yeah, I know they're crooked and probably won't hold up their end of the deal. But, you have to weight that against the low price they're offering." If you actually LIKE that sort of deal, then go for it!

No, kidnapping is not okay when the cops do it.  How am I saying its okay?  But the fact remains, they are held to a public standard.  Its called transparency.  Does that mean all arrests are executed properly?  No.  But you rarely end up in Guantanamo-style conditions when cops take you.  And you can't guarantee that wouldn't happen with rogue agencies.  It doesn't matter if "most" people would transact with them - bounty hunters are an excellent example.  They often take cops who can't get cop jobs, and I think we both know a cop who can't get a cop-job is probably pretty fucking dangerous. 

I think the people who believe this crap will work properly are operating in a total fantasy world.  They are not acknowledging the less civilized aspects that are bound to flourish. 

Private security is totally hardcore and operates at whatever level their clients pay for.  Force is a atmosphere of escalation and one-upmanship.  It never becomes "less forceful".  Ignoring that fact is to ignore the nature of man.  And to that end, I would hire the most ruthless bunch of motherfuckers in the biz - if I hired any at all.  A DRO would have an enforcement branch and a legal branch.  Its pretty unlikely it would be just a legal service.  If you just wanted legal dispute representation, you'd hire it as needed, just like you do now - they're called lawyers. 

Any fear you have should be one more strike against a monopolized system - since there is no competition.

Maybe you should stop thinking I am "pro-system" and start thinking I am anti-fantasy. 

Anyone who wants to sit around and talk fantasy is free to do so.  But when you're sitting there discussing Batman Vs. Superman, just realize how ridiculous it sounds.  I may participate in the discussion for fun, but I exist in reality.  Reality is the thing that effects my real life.  I'm more interested in preserving and protecting that, especially since none of this fantasy stuff will ever become reality - and thats probably a good thing, because I suspect it would be a clusterfuck.

I'm not all fired up or anything.  Just saying, its a mental exercise. 


Where did I ever even suggest it would become reality?  My point is that competition is always better.  Just because most people can't wrap their head around it doesn't mean it's not true. 

Ever heard of the law of unintended consequences? 

So competition is only wrong in this case?
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Bill Brasky

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Re: The Legal System In A Free Society
« Reply #24 on: March 16, 2010, 12:19:58 AM »

I'm not saying its wrong.  I'm saying it probably wouldn't go the way y'all think it will. 

The world is corrupt. 
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NotYourSlave

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Re: The Legal System In A Free Society
« Reply #25 on: March 16, 2010, 12:28:26 AM »

I'm not saying its wrong.  I'm saying it probably wouldn't go the way y'all think it will. 

The world is corrupt. 

Which is why you don't institute a monopoly of power and force.
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TimeLady Victorious

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Re: The Legal System In A Free Society
« Reply #26 on: March 16, 2010, 02:41:51 AM »

If the society were truly free it would mean you'd have to gather up a bunch of vigilantes to stop someone from killing a lot of people. And even then they'd probably make lots of mistakes.

It's the reason why I prefer our current legal system.
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Diogenes The Cynic

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Re: The Legal System In A Free Society
« Reply #27 on: March 16, 2010, 03:37:33 AM »



?

? My Ass

Bring them onto my lawn. 

Dude, if I fucked you over in any sort of a dispute.  And you tried to fix it with them, it would hold no authority over me.  It requires me to acknowledge their authority, and they have none. 

I don't give a fuck what they want. 

What makes you think I would have any professional dealings with you?

This may make me sound like an asshole, but whatever. I live in a segregated community that lets me have the enjoyment of only being around the kind of people I would normally associate with. My landlord for example didn't bother to write up any sort of contract. If ever something arose, I know I could call up the nearest Jewish court, and he would show up and comply with the ruling.

The issue of force doesn't come in for a number of reasons. For one, refusal to comply would end with someone having their name printed in the newspaper with instructions for everyone to excommunicate the person. So this noncompliant person would off the boat lose all their friends, family, probably be forced into a divorce, and possibly their job.

Another factor is that its a system that people know they opt into by living in such a community.
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Bill Brasky

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Re: The Legal System In A Free Society
« Reply #28 on: March 16, 2010, 06:35:24 AM »

I'm not saying its wrong.  I'm saying it probably wouldn't go the way y'all think it will. 

The world is corrupt. 

Which is why you don't institute a monopoly of power and force.

Round and round and round and round. 
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Bill Brasky

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Re: The Legal System In A Free Society
« Reply #29 on: March 16, 2010, 06:52:07 AM »



?

? My Ass

Bring them onto my lawn. 

Dude, if I fucked you over in any sort of a dispute.  And you tried to fix it with them, it would hold no authority over me.  It requires me to acknowledge their authority, and they have none. 

I don't give a fuck what they want. 

What makes you think I would have any professional dealings with you?

This may make me sound like an asshole, but whatever. I live in a segregated community that lets me have the enjoyment of only being around the kind of people I would normally associate with. My landlord for example didn't bother to write up any sort of contract. If ever something arose, I know I could call up the nearest Jewish court, and he would show up and comply with the ruling.

The issue of force doesn't come in for a number of reasons. For one, refusal to comply would end with someone having their name printed in the newspaper with instructions for everyone to excommunicate the person. So this noncompliant person would off the boat lose all their friends, family, probably be forced into a divorce, and possibly their job.

Another factor is that its a system that people know they opt into by living in such a community.

What makes you think in an extreme situation (which is the measure of effectiveness) someone will just allow it?  Will their faith be a big enough reason to take a massive blow to their solvency? 

Try and tell me the Bernie Madoff's of the world will just say "okay" when the Jew Police arrive for a chat.  Even 1/1000th of the size, a crooked accountant, or an embezzler.  Not gonna happen. 

Having your status ruined only matters to upstanding citizens, and even then, not so much.  Ruined credit doesn't frighten me if I pay cash for a house.  Target is gonna deny my business, won't sell me a lamp?  I go years without transacting on a higher level than buying food and cigarettes.  You don't confirm identity for normal purchases, you are anonymous. 
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