The FSP is a religion

[Richard Garner]

It was not till yesterday that I realized the smart idea behind the FSP.


Conservatives move to neighborhoods to raise their children and neighborhoods like Irvine are created. They block vote, and thereby get a good amount of representation.

Liberals did the same thing when they picked up and went to cities who were accepting to their views, so neighborhoods like the Village, Berkeley, and San Francisco were created.

If the FSP reaches critical mass by taking a dispersed group and concentrates them where block voting will change the cities they live in, the Free Staters can get their views into mainstream legislation.

Their combined voting will undo years of legislation, and decrease the level of harm the politicians are doing to the country rather then the .01% difference they would make in the elections of their former home cities.

Problem is NH isn't any one of those places.

Personally, I have much to risk both professionally and with my standard of living.  From looking at NH nothing compares to what I have now.  Taking the risk of losing this for something that doesn't appear to have much of chance for success is silly.  Like I said, I'd rather make due with what I've got now than risk it all for someplace I'd probably be miserable in.

Not me. I ran a shop in the UK, but the credit crunch has lead to it closing, and has made me redundant. If I could get a job in NH, I'd probably move quick.

[Dylboz]

This a definite case of hating the players, instead of the game. We all hate the game, but the FSP is trying to play it to win. They are not picking up their ball and going home (the Galt option), instead they are instead trying to use the rules of the game set by their opponents to win. The kind of democratic majoritarian rule we've become accustomed to in America has created a constant ratchet effect, and effectively oppressing the minority who yearn to breathe free. So, rather than give in, they've decided to band together and turn the tables by BEING the majority in NH, but I just don't think that 20,000 people is enough.

I signed up anyway, and if they ever do reach the trigger point, I'll make every effort to move. However, in terms of climate and resources, neither Arizona or New Hampshire seem like a good place to be WTSHTF. I don't think the FSP is dead, not by a long shot, and the organization's loose structure allows someone who feels like John Shaw does about the FSP's official leadership to participate without being in any way beholden to them. Once you get there, all you are to them is a number, a statistic, a metric used to judge their progress in terms of recruitment. That's all they really do, it seems. The real "project" part of the FSP is in the activism, but the leadership is focused mainly on the moving to New Hampshire part.

As far as the activism goes, Keene area Free Staters, the FTL crew, and a few others seem to be the epicenter, and from what I gather, they have little to nothing to do with the FSP leadership beyond participation in the Liberty Forum and Porc Fest. If I do move to NH, Keene is where I'll go. I'm interested enough in moving to try and go to Porc Fest so I can meet people, network professionally and scout housing, but my continued employment is uncertain and money is really tight, so it may be next year, not this year.

[NHArticleTen]

I fully support the concept of the FSP.

I do NOT support the FSP itself, though, because they have been demonstrably dishonest, and when confronted about it, get even more dishonest, and hostile, and dismissive, and never ever ever admit that there was dishonesty.

Fuck liars and manipulators.

SPECIAL NOTE - I am not speaking about FSP participants, I am talking about the mouthpieces and organizers.

and, of course, it's been going on since the beginning and there have been numerous threads with respect to it...over the years...

in fact...here's something posted on another forum just yesterday...

they played hard and fast hoping you'd roll over on them

of course it was a test for you both as individuals and for the resources of the community and movement as a whole

in reference to that...they can see and exploit the issues which serve to divide and conquer us...

this is just another situation which could/would be dealt with much more effectively if the whole project was involved

I've said more than once that if each and every FSP member put some cash in an envelope and sent it to those current wrestling with the beast...it would only be a few bucks out of each pocket but it would mean so much more at the point of impact...

I would support Evan's advocacy of such a regime change as is necessary to facilitate a greater collaboration of members...

I've been turned down and turned away several times with respect to this subject and issue but I think it's high time to have a successful regime change

the truth of the matter is...if the FSP regime did do something like that then it would "get out" in short order that the "numbers" that we use(signed up and moved) are not accurate...and that quite a few people actually know this but are in collusion to keep it hush-hush...

like right now the counter reads 9192 members...what a crock of shit...I'd be willing to bet that if a contact effort was made...there MIGHT be a reply by five or six thousand at the most...

I've personally see the subversion of the project...from WITHIN the project...from the very beginning...and one can only imagine the hundreds and, likely...thousands who have been turned off by that very subversion...

Some of the early signers attempted in earnest to correct these subversions but were thwarted at every attempt...

I suppose if we can't correct our little porcupine organization...we won't have much success with cities, states, and nations...

[John Shaw]

Five bucks sez you are quoting yourself.

[Dylboz]

He is, for sure. Just look at all the unnecessary spaces and ellipses.

[NHArticleTen]

Five bucks sez you are quoting yourself.

self evident...

went without saying...

{{scribble, scribble}} "John= 1 3 beers" {{/scribble, scribble}}

[NHArticleTen]

john=chuckled

[patrickj]

Its unprecedented, so there is bound the be struggle.

I think i'll move to NH, and give it my best shot.  If that doesn't work, back to the drawing board.  

:shrug:

Why get down on your fellow man for simply trying?  

[fatcat]

Its unprecedented, so there is bound the be struggle.

I think i'll move to NH, and give it my best shot.  If that doesn't work, back to the drawing board.  

:shrug:

Why get down on your fellow man for simply trying?  

Who's getting down on their fellow man here?

This is indicative of all the bullshit within the FSP project.

If you talk about how the FSP might not be going to plan, and might actually be a waste of time, then your just a pessimistic naysayer who doesn't matter, and you just want to do nothing towards liberty.

Fact is, as Shaw mentioned, there is a whole lot of dishonesty and manipulation going on within the organization and the membership.

Liberty in our lifetimes it is definitely not.

Slightly freer New Hampshire where you get to hang out with other libertarians but not make that much of a difference just doesn't have the same ring.

When serious, rational critiques of the project are responded to with "If you don't have a better idea, shut up", you have to wonder about the reasons people have for being so supportive of the idea.

If you've moved  halfway across the country, thats a pretty heavy commitment, and you're not going to be very willing to accept anything that would make that decision seem like a bad one.

Thats why so much of the response is in ethereal terms.

Either the projects working right now, and you just cant see it yet, or very soon things are going to start picking up, but theres never any concrete predictions because that would allow too much realism into the proceedings which would fuck up everyones happy fantasy.

[Jetfire]

Why get down on your fellow man for simply trying?  

seriously in the end dont we all pretty much want to work towards the same goals?

Failure is a good stepping stone to success.

edit: people keep mention lying and deceit within FSP but I have no idea what the deal is with that... whats going on?

[patrickj]

Well fatcat, i'm not as tied into the goings on around here and the FSP as many of you.  Your probably 100% correct, along with John Shaw.  I wouldn't know.  I was just attempting to loosen this tense discussion by bringing it back to square 1.  Most of us are on the same team. 

I was also trying to consolidate the list of points made here by attracting your post.  So thanks for writing it, i have a better understanding now. 

[Dylboz]

This a definite case of hating the players, instead of the game. We all hate the game, but the FSP is trying to play it to win. They are not picking up their ball and going home (the Galt option), instead they are instead trying to use the rules of the game set by their opponents to win. The kind of democratic majoritarian rule we've become accustomed to in America has created a constant ratchet effect, and effectively oppressing the minority who yearn to breathe free. So, rather than give in, they've decided to band together and turn the tables by BEING the majority in NH, but I just don't think that 20,000 people is enough.

There is no game.

You're not good with metaphors, are you?

[Dave P. R. of S.]

If you've moved  halfway across the country, thats a pretty heavy commitment, and you're not going to be very willing to accept anything that would make that decision seem like a bad one.

And after you understand that you have made a bad decision, you can always beg for donations.

Seems to be working for the Travis's.

[AntonLee]

life is perfect in all places except NH.

[blackie]

I *like* NH. Well, parts of NH.

The FSP doesn't do anything for me, cus I'm not looking for a social club to hang out with and agree with me.

I might be interested in living in a "liberty compound", if it was set up right. But having a goal of taking over a state, or even town is pretty much out of the question for me. I just want them to "leave me alone".