Welcome to the Free Talk Live bulletin board system!
This board is closed to new users and new posts.  Thank you to all our great mods and users over the years.  Details here.
185859 Posts in 9829 Topics by 1371 Members
Latest Member: cjt26
Home Help
+  The Free Talk Live BBS
|-+  Free Talk Live
| |-+  General
| | |-+  The FSP is a religion
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 ... 11   Go Down

Author Topic: The FSP is a religion  (Read 24983 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

coyote

  • Guest
Re: The FSP is dead
« Reply #30 on: March 31, 2009, 09:59:07 PM »

well maybe it would be slow to acquire members but I have several friends and family who wanna move to NH too. I think its possible given time and decent exposure.

What moving to New Hampshire or turning New Hampshire into a free place?

If you want to up sticks with your family to live in New Hampshire, go right ahead, that's perfectly possible.

If you think the FSP is a good idea and has a good chance of working, answer these questions.

What effect has it had so far?

How long will it take to have any extra effect?

How many people will it take?

How long will it take to get that many people?

Fatcat,

I sincerely wish you all the best in achieving whatever measure of freedom you believe you can attain wherever you are or plan to be. It just seems to me that you have an axe to grind with the FSP for some reason. I don't know why.

I just want to know if you have a better idea than the FSP and what your strategy is. I'm certainly open to it if it makes more sense than the FSP.

Hell, I'd rather NOT uproot my family and move to NH, even though it sounds like a great place to live in and of itself.  But as someone who has tried other strategies for decades, the FSP seems to be the most viable one since it proposes to concentrate the greatest number of liberty activists in one place in the shortest possible period of time.

If you reject the principle of concentration, that is OK with me, but what is your alternative strategy?
Logged

JWI

  • Guest
Re: The FSP is dead
« Reply #31 on: March 31, 2009, 10:02:20 PM »

Having a couple libertarians in some local government offices and taking credit for stopping a peripheral law on road traffic won't cut it when taxes and government intervention are going to be rising nationwide.

Don't forget the increases in freedom such as wearing hats or using cameras in court.

Seriously, if you have the means and ability to move to NH then good luck.  Some of us don't have that right now, nor will we probably ever.  That won't stop the elitist people in the FSP from looking down their noses at you because you won't MOVE NOW.
Logged

blackie

  • Guest
Re: The FSP is dead
« Reply #32 on: March 31, 2009, 10:03:34 PM »

I just want to know if you have a better idea than the FSP and what your strategy is. I'm certainly open to it if it makes more sense than the FSP.

Hell, I'd rather NOT uproot my family and move to NH, even though it sounds like a great place to live in and of itself.  But as someone who has tried other strategies for decades, the FSP seems to be the most viable one since it proposes to concentrate the greatest number of liberty activists in one place in the shortest possible period of time.

If you reject the principle of concentration, that is OK with me, but what is your alternative strategy?
The Free Town Project is a better idea.

Grafton, NH is the freest town in the freest state.

Wanna buy a house there?
Logged

BonerJoe

  • Guest
Re: The FSP is dead
« Reply #33 on: March 31, 2009, 10:04:03 PM »

In b4 may your chains rest lightly.
Logged

JWI

  • Guest
Re: The FSP is dead
« Reply #34 on: March 31, 2009, 10:04:19 PM »

I just want to know if you have a better idea than the FSP and what your strategy is. I'm certainly open to it if it makes more sense than the FSP.

Hell, I'd rather NOT uproot my family and move to NH, even though it sounds like a great place to live in and of itself.  But as someone who has tried other strategies for decades, the FSP seems to be the most viable one since it proposes to concentrate the greatest number of liberty activists in one place in the shortest possible period of time.

If you reject the principle of concentration, that is OK with me, but what is your alternative strategy?
The Free Town Project is a better idea.

Grafton, NH is the freest town in the freest state.

Wanna buy a house there?

Isn't it just a field with a couple old farm houses?
Logged

coyote

  • Guest
Re: The FSP is dead
« Reply #35 on: March 31, 2009, 10:10:39 PM »

Having a couple libertarians in some local government offices and taking credit for stopping a peripheral law on road traffic won't cut it when taxes and government intervention are going to be rising nationwide.

Don't forget the increases in freedom such as wearing hats or using cameras in court.

Seriously, if you have the means and ability to move to NH then good luck.  Some of us don't have that right now, nor will we probably ever.  That won't stop the elitist people in the FSP from looking down their noses at you because you won't MOVE NOW.

If some "elitist" FSP is looking down their noses at you because you won't MOVE NOW, then shame on them...

I myself don't have the means to move now. However, I can envision a situation in the near future, (I live in a state with a bankrupt state government bordering on a foreign country that resembles Somalia more and more every day), where I may have no choice but to move. And if I have to flee Arizona as a kind of refugee, I might as well move my family to NH.  :(
Logged

blackie

  • Guest
Re: The FSP is dead
« Reply #36 on: March 31, 2009, 10:13:32 PM »

I just want to know if you have a better idea than the FSP and what your strategy is. I'm certainly open to it if it makes more sense than the FSP.

Hell, I'd rather NOT uproot my family and move to NH, even though it sounds like a great place to live in and of itself.  But as someone who has tried other strategies for decades, the FSP seems to be the most viable one since it proposes to concentrate the greatest number of liberty activists in one place in the shortest possible period of time.

If you reject the principle of concentration, that is OK with me, but what is your alternative strategy?
The Free Town Project is a better idea.

Grafton, NH is the freest town in the freest state.

Wanna buy a house there?

Isn't it just a field with a couple old farm houses?
No. It's mostly hills and trees and rocks. You are lucky if you have a field. Something like 550 households, 1200 people in 40 square miles. It's the home of the world famous Ruggles Mine and Grafton Country Store
Logged

fatcat

  • Guest
Re: The FSP is dead
« Reply #37 on: March 31, 2009, 10:23:48 PM »

Fatcat,

I sincerely wish you all the best in achieving whatever measure of freedom you believe you can attain wherever you are or plan to be. It just seems to me that you have an axe to grind with the FSP for some reason. I don't know why.

I just want to know if you have a better idea than the FSP and what your strategy is. I'm certainly open to it if it makes more sense than the FSP.

Hell, I'd rather NOT uproot my family and move to NH, even though it sounds like a great place to live in and of itself.  But as someone who has tried other strategies for decades, the FSP seems to be the most viable one since it proposes to concentrate the greatest number of liberty activists in one place in the shortest possible period of time.

If you reject the principle of concentration, that is OK with me, but what is your alternative strategy?

I think i covered this in the post before last in there "where else is good for liberty" bit, but i'll go over it again.

Personally, I plan to move Zug, Switzerland, in the next few years, partially for business reasons, partially for personal freedoms such as buying, using and growing marijuana, legal prostitution, legal euthanasia (not the most useful freedom, but i like being in a place that respects my right to have people kill me), being able to buy guns and automatic weapons (not really a big draw for Americans, but I live in the UK where you can be arrested for carrying a slightly sharp pencil, let alone a gun).

I can't see Switzerland going too bad in terms of freedom, it has stayed relatively clear of the EU (although it has been tangled in some agreements). I expect maybe a little more in taxes and a little more in certain gun regulations, but not much else.

Drug freedom has been increasing as of late (10 out of 16 cantons have legal marijuana, other drug laws are largely unenforced), legal euthanasia and prostitution are unlikely to go, and due to Switzerlands system of national defense, its pretty much impossible for them to get rid of guns (all men in Switzerland are trained with assault rifles, though thankfully there is the opportunity to opt out).

Also Zug is only has a population of 109,141, and its only 30 minutes drive from Zurich, the largest city in Switzerland.

Zugs taxes are amongst the lowest in Switzerland, probably the lower than anywhere, only 8.5% federal income tax, and Zugs own income tax of 8 percent. Its hard to calculate an exact number with the amount of disparate taxes involved, but I think total tax burden is around 20-30%. Also theres no Swiss minimum wage, which is a nice plus as a business owner.

Switzerlands federal government is also much much less invasive. Switzerland hasn't invaded another country in centuries, and is unlikely ever to do so in its current form. Swiss cantons are also much more autonomous from national government than US states are. Direct Democracy is in effect, which can be a good or a bad thing, but in Switzerland, cannabis legalization was largely brought about by Direct Democracy.

In terms of long term freedom, I don't see any mainland place getting considerably freer in the next 20 years or longer. Most places are if anything going to get worse. The richer people get, the more government they can sustain. Aside from a few small issues (i could see cannabis and prostitution becoming legalized in a few places), taxes and regulation are going to rise globally.

So as I mentioned before, the Seasteading institute is pretty promising, both in the resources put behind it, and in the realism the subject is being dealt with.

Whether a "free" ocean city could actually survive without government intervention is yet to be seen, but it'll be an interesting experiment.

In my opinion you shouldn't move to NH unless you would do so without the FSP's existance. Sure you will have a small libertarian community there, but you can find like minded people anywhere, and the FSPs influence and scope is really negligible.

You're looking at around 50-200 sign ups a year, so to get to 20,000, it could take at an optimistic rate 50 years, but at the current rate 100+ years, and that rate has been decreasing since 2001, so its not likely to suddenly spike up without a really good reason. If 10,000 people can make a difference, great, but its been 8 years since the project started, and what has it achieved?

What will it achieve? How much more will its power have to grow before it could start making a difference?

Make a list of things you'd like to achieve. Legalized drugs? Lower taxes? Legal Automatic weapons? No speed limits? No welfare?

How many of these are going to happen, and how long will it take? Try and get FSPers to give you an answer and measure how realistic you think they're being.

People already involved will want you to believe that success is round the corner, that a snowball is rolling, but liberty in our lifetimes it is not.

"Slightly freer New Hampshire than it would have been in our lifetimes", doesn't really have the same ring to it.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2009, 10:40:33 PM by fatcat »
Logged

JWI

  • Guest
Re: The FSP is dead
« Reply #38 on: March 31, 2009, 10:24:37 PM »

You can't sell NH to the majority of people who are actually interested in this sort of thing.

Especially considering you'll get shit on whenever you express interest in something other than holding signs and wasting time in court over a hat.
Logged

coyote

  • Guest
Re: The FSP is dead
« Reply #39 on: March 31, 2009, 10:27:12 PM »

FSP has no "image". From what I have come across....FSP looks like it's run by a bunch of yuppies who didn't want to go westward. If the FSP presented a more romantic image of libertarians becoming the next Pilgrims and going to Wyoming, Montana, or whatever....more people would have listened. But, The FSP is ultimately a thing that yuppies came up with. You can't sell NH to the majority of people who are actually interested in this sort of thing.

R3

I empathize with you. It would have been a lot easier for me to move to Wyoming or Montana. However, NH offers what is perceived to be a better quality of life for more people than those western states do.

In an attempt to avoid signing up with the FSP, I even tried to connect with the "Western state FSP" types, but it seems that most of them just want to hunker down in preparation for the collapse of western civilization. They just want to be left alone and live as free as they can. God bless them, and I wish them all the best.

Not that I blame them...I just want to take a more offensive approach.
Logged

coyote

  • Guest
Re: The FSP is dead
« Reply #40 on: March 31, 2009, 10:35:20 PM »

You can't sell NH to the majority of people who are actually interested in this sort of thing.

Especially considering you'll get shit on whenever you express interest in something other than holding signs and wasting time in court over a hat.

That's really not nice. Please share your story or give a specific example. My wife gets really tired of me playing FTL on the stereo when it all seems to revolve around that kind of stuff.

However, we haven't been pooped on yet  :lol:
Logged

coyote

  • Guest
Re: The FSP is dead
« Reply #41 on: March 31, 2009, 10:47:39 PM »


I think i covered this in the post before last in there "where else is good for liberty" bit, but I'll go over it again.

First off, I was an FSP supporter years, you can probably find posts of me defending it if you trawl through this forums archives


Personally, I plan to move Zug, Switzerland, in the next few years, partially for business reasons, partially for personal freedoms such as buying, using and growing marijuana, legal prostitution, legal euthanasia (not the most useful freedom, but i like being in a place that respects my right to have people kill me), being able to buy guns and automatic weapons (not really a big draw for Americans, but I live in the UK where you can be arrested for carrying a slightly sharp pencil, let alone a gun).

I can't see Switzerland going to bad in terms of freedom, it has stayed relatively clear of the EU (although it has been tangled in some agreements).

Drug freedom has been increasing as of late (10 out of 16 cantons have legal marijuana, other drug laws are largely unenforced), legal euthanasia and prostitution are unlikely to go, and due to Switzerlands system of national defense, its pretty much impossible for them to get rid of guns (all men in Switzerland are trained with assault rifles, though thankfully there is the opportunity to opt out).

Also Zug is only has a population of 109,141, and its only 30 minutes drive from Zurich, the largest city in Switzerland.

Zugs taxes are amongst the lowest in Switzerland, probably the lower than anywhere, only 8.5% federal income tax, and Zugs own income tax of 8 percent. Its hard to calculate an exact number with the amount of disparate taxes involved, but I think total tax burden is around 20-30%. Also theres no Swiss minimum wage, which is a nice plus as a business owner.


In terms of long term freedom, I don't see any mainland place getting considerably freer in the next 20 years or longer.

So as I mentioned before, the Seasteading institute is pretty promising, both in the resources put behind it, and in the realism the subject is being dealt with.


If the FSP doesn't work, Switzerland sounds better and better.

One of my favorite books is, "Total Resistance", which was a manual for Swiss national defense in the event of foreign occupation. While it needs to be updated, it outlines many of the points you make.

Also, seasteading is a great idea. It's just not one I'm interested in doing. :)
Logged

JWI

  • Guest
Re: The FSP is dead
« Reply #42 on: March 31, 2009, 10:52:42 PM »

You can't sell NH to the majority of people who are actually interested in this sort of thing.

Especially considering you'll get shit on whenever you express interest in something other than holding signs and wasting time in court over a hat.

That's really not nice. Please share your story or give a specific example. My wife gets really tired of me playing FTL on the stereo when it all seems to revolve around that kind of stuff.

However, we haven't been pooped on yet  :lol:

Not much to tell.  I'd lean more towards the political side of things.  However whenever I mention it I get told I'm wasting my time and politics doesn't work.  I made a mistake about expressing a political type of interest at the last Porcfest amongst the wrong crowd apparently and I was met with "well if you want to waste your time doing that then good luck"

Meanwhile I see other people wasting just as much if not more time going to court, sitting in jail or on trial, and standing around protesting something while having even less of an impact.  Then I'm asked to donate money to some civil disobedience fund that will just turn around and pay fines (give it to the state) so those same people can do it all over again.

So from my point of view, why bother moving?  If politics and CivDis both won't work and are a big waste of time, then I'll just stay here and make the best of what I have.  It's far better than disrupting my life in order to move somewhere that will most likely get worse.  I already wasted 10 years playing politics here and given up, no sense wasting another 10 years somewhere else for what will probably be the same exact results.
Logged

sillyperson

  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5196
  • Free the Mallocs!
    • View Profile
    • NH Liberty Alliance
Re: The FSP is dead
« Reply #43 on: March 31, 2009, 10:56:29 PM »

I'll humor you, fatcat, though I'll first point out that your Great Plan involves moving to the Canton of Zug in Switzerland. How's that working out for you?

What effect has it had so far? How can you show the FSP has caused this?
A few recent ones from off the top of my head:
* 6 FSPers (4 movers + 2 before-the-vote) elected as State Rep. That's more Libertarians in higher office than anywhere else in the USA.
* approx. $10 Million in local budgets that FSPers cast the deciding votes on in various town meetings, over the past 3 years
* "recording the cops" bill (FSPer legislation, passed the House, ~50% chance of passing the Senate & getting signed by governor)
* Hugely reduced homeschooling regulation (FSPer legislation in 2006)
* Got NH to reject Real-ID in law, not just as a resolution (FSPer legislation + FSPers were the prime activists)
* there are more, I tire of typing

How long will it take to have any extra effect?
How many people will it take?
Numbers matter less than effectiveness & work ethic of the people who move. I figure another 100 people who are willing to run for State Rep, or campaign HARD for NHLA-endorsed candidates, will result in a Libbertarian veto on any legislation going forward. That's huge -- a hell of a lot more libertarian influence than anyplace in the USA has had in the last 100+ years.

How long will it take to get that many people?
Dunno. Depends on how many jack off thinking about the Canton of Zug vs. how many actually do anything

BTW, I predict there will be a lot of bad news out of NH for the next 1.5 years. The Democrats in power are largely Statist and are fucking things up pretty bad. Fortunately, the entire government changes every 2 years, everyone gets elected from the governor on down all at once.

BonerJoe

  • Guest
Re: The FSP is dead
« Reply #44 on: March 31, 2009, 10:57:34 PM »

Fortunately, the entire government changes every 2 years, everyone gets elected from the governor on down all at once.

How has that worked out for you guys the past 5 years? That's what I thought.
Logged
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 ... 11   Go Up
+  The Free Talk Live BBS
|-+  Free Talk Live
| |-+  General
| | |-+  The FSP is a religion

// ]]>

Page created in 0.027 seconds with 32 queries.