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Author Topic: The FSP is a religion  (Read 24984 times)

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Lindsey

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Re: The FSP is dead
« Reply #15 on: March 31, 2009, 09:00:15 PM »

So are we supposed to give them 100 years or what?   :roll:
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Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we.
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BonerJoe

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Re: The FSP is dead
« Reply #16 on: March 31, 2009, 09:01:10 PM »

SOME DAY I'LL BE A BROADWAY STAR!
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Lindsey

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Re: The FSP is dead
« Reply #17 on: March 31, 2009, 09:04:11 PM »

SOME DAY I'LL BE A BROADWAY STAR!

I bet we could make you some money as a Liza Minelli impersonator. 
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Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we.
         -George W. Bush

BonerJoe

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Re: The FSP is dead
« Reply #18 on: March 31, 2009, 09:05:27 PM »

SOME DAY I'LL BE A BROADWAY STAR!

I bet we could make you some money as a Liza Minelli impersonator. 
* BonerJoe jumps up and down like a giddy 8 year old.
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Lindsey

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Re: The FSP is dead
« Reply #19 on: March 31, 2009, 09:07:27 PM »

SOME DAY I'LL BE A BROADWAY STAR!

I bet we could make you some money as a Liza Minelli impersonator. 
* BonerJoe jumps up and down like a giddy 8 year old.

See, you've already got a good handle on how to do this bit.   :lol:
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Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we.
         -George W. Bush

fatcat

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Re: The FSP is dead
« Reply #20 on: March 31, 2009, 09:09:31 PM »

well maybe it would be slow to acquire members but I have several friends and family who wanna move to NH too. I think its possible given time and decent exposure.

What moving to New Hampshire or turning New Hampshire into a free place?

If you want to up sticks with your family to live in New hampshire, go right ahead, thats perfectly possible.

If you think the FSP is a good idea and has a good chance of working, answer these questions.

What effect has it had so far?

How long will it take to have any extra effect?

How many people will it take?

How long will it take to get that many people?


The Free State Project was meant to disband in 2006 (i think), if it had not reached 20,000 members, in order to stop the FSP from being a long sprawling sink of time and resources that worked on false hopes and self delusion and never made any significant difference.

And Freestaters have no sense of irony when discussing the future of the FSP.

Also, how many people do you think that have currently signed up for the FSP would actually move if there was some metaphorical call to arms? How many are multiple sign ups? How many are no longer interested? How many weren't serious sign ups in the first place?

Hint, the FSP makes no attempt to try and confirm the validity of these sign ups even years later, and there have been multiple known instances of false sign ups, even without any great attempts to validate any of them.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2009, 09:13:51 PM by fatcat »
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fase2000tdi

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Re: The FSP is dead
« Reply #21 on: March 31, 2009, 09:32:40 PM »

and if you don't move to NH, and you don't join the "sinkin ship"... what ship are you currently in?

NH is a nice place to live, and at least there are liberty activists there. If you don't think it will have any effect, i ask you to go there.

You feel it worth your time to bitch online, and debate, and harass socialists, but do you do anything to achieve liberty in your life?

Worse case you move to NH and go to maple festivals across new england, ski, and bang some hotties at UNH.

Every cause has it's issues, and the FSP isn't perfect, but people are moving up.  The number doesn't matter - they are having an effect, they are being noticed.  political movements didn't start with the support, or even being accepted by the majority of populations.   Good ones and bad have come to be through the persistance of a minority.


« Last Edit: March 31, 2009, 09:35:14 PM by fase2000tdi »
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coyote

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Re: The FSP is dead
« Reply #22 on: March 31, 2009, 09:35:19 PM »

even if they keep acquiring more and more liberty minded people in the same area?

Then talk to FSP fanatics, and listen to how they scramble away from reality, who go from claiming the numbers don't matter (without providing proof) or go so far as to claim that the numbers will pick up, except they don't have any coherent explanation for how that's going to happen.

Notice how they constantly change the criteria for success to fit with the idea of the FSP, rather than change their opinion of the FSP based on their original criteria for success.

Then find something else to do with your life.

Thankfully my life and happiness aren't dependent on the success of liberty in NH or anywhere else. I have quite a bit to do with my life, FSP or no FSP.

However...
In terms of temporal success, does anyone have a better strategy than the FSP?
It's the best idea I've encountered so far.
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Bill Brasky

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Re: The FSP is dead
« Reply #23 on: March 31, 2009, 09:37:19 PM »

...but do you do anything to achieve liberty in your life?



Obsessively.  Morning, noon, and night.  

You?

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blackie

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Re: The FSP is dead
« Reply #24 on: March 31, 2009, 09:39:58 PM »

GLWT
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BonerJoe

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Re: The FSP is dead
« Reply #25 on: March 31, 2009, 09:42:18 PM »

In b4 Keith and Scotch.
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sillyperson

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Re: The FSP is dead
« Reply #26 on: March 31, 2009, 09:47:39 PM »

"the FSP is dead" is an old meme on FTL and various forums.
There are plenty of reasons to believe the won't/can't succeed. There will be plenty more in the future.

Meanwhile, we keep on electing more & more libertarians into State government, getting more libertarian media circulated, and generally doing more than anywhere else in the country.

So, yeah, the FSP is dead. Whatever. Wake me up when you can show better results somewhere else.

fatcat

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Re: The FSP is dead
« Reply #27 on: March 31, 2009, 09:47:59 PM »

even if they keep acquiring more and more liberty minded people in the same area?

Then talk to FSP fanatics, and listen to how they scramble away from reality, who go from claiming the numbers don't matter (without providing proof) or go so far as to claim that the numbers will pick up, except they don't have any coherent explanation for how that's going to happen.

Notice how they constantly change the criteria for success to fit with the idea of the FSP, rather than change their opinion of the FSP based on their original criteria for success.

Then find something else to do with your life.

Thankfully my life and happiness aren't dependent on the success of liberty in NH or anywhere else. I have quite a bit to do with my life, FSP or no FSP.

However...
In terms of temporal success, does anyone have a better strategy than the FSP?
It's the best idea I've encountered so far.

There are plenty of places in the world that are freer than NH right now, and are considerably more likely to stay freer than NH was.

Its good to hear you don't think the FSP is the be all and end all, my comment about finding something else with your life was more directed at people who think anyone who doesn't join the FSP is either a coward or lazy.

Zug in Switzerland is one of the most appealing places for me, I've mentioned it a couple of times. Its got lower taxes than pretty much anywhere in Europe or America, its got legal prostitution, extremely lax drug laws (laxer than Holland), gun laws are pretty good (legal assault rifles), although it is fairly restrictive (liscenses) when it comes to things like concealed carry handguns. Though nowhere near as bad as the UK or mainland europe.

Low crime, high GDP per capita, nice scenery, multiple divergent cultures in a short space

I've heard good things about Costa Rica and some other south American countries.

I'm pretty sure theres some micronesian/pacific micronation countries that are fairly libertarian aswell.


In terms of actual long term permanent projects, the Seastead institute are probably the best chance in a long line of failed ocean living projects.

Peter Thiel (paypal millionaire) is backing it and already donated $700,000, a bunch of other rich and smart people are involved, Patri Friedman (ex google engineer, grandson of Milton Friedman) is also heavily involved.

They've put out a fairly comprehensive book on Seasteading which covers the technical minutia from dealing with barnacles, salinity in the air etc, from the grander stuff of how infrastructure can work, how the market might function aswell.

But "liberty in our lifetime" is a way lofty goal. Anyone claiming they can make you totally free within 50 years is either a hack or a crazy, and you should be extremely skeptical.
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BonerJoe

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Re: The FSP is dead
« Reply #28 on: March 31, 2009, 09:48:37 PM »

Wake me up when you can show better results somewhere else.

You'd still give excuses why NH is better.
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fatcat

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Re: The FSP is dead
« Reply #29 on: March 31, 2009, 09:50:08 PM »

"the FSP is dead" is an old meme on FTL and various forums.
There are plenty of reasons to believe the won't/can't succeed. There will be plenty more in the future.

Meanwhile, we keep on electing more & more libertarians into State government, getting more libertarian media circulated, and generally doing more than anywhere else in the country.

So, yeah, the FSP is dead. Whatever. Wake me up when you can show better results somewhere else.

Can you answer these questions?


What effect has it had so far? How can you show the FSP has caused this?

How long will it take to have any extra effect?

How many people will it take?

How long will it take to get that many people?


Any answer I've ever had from an FSP proponent simply boils down to either

A) Its working already, just you wait and see whats coming down the road.

or

B) Something will turn up, a snowball will build, once we get enough people government will cease to have any power.

The politicals tend to go for A, and the civ dis crowd tend to go for B


Either case, its a lot of hot air, and similar claims could be made just about any place in the world. As long as your results are just round the corner you don't ever have to produce them.


Factor in the impending increases in Federal government, and it will take a significant increase in liberty in NH to even balance out the difference.

Having a couple libertarians in some local government offices and taking credit for stopping a peripheral law on road traffic won't cut it when taxes and government intervention are going to be rising nationwide.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2009, 09:56:42 PM by fatcat »
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