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Free Talk Live => General => Topic started by: Alex Libman on April 19, 2008, 04:59:20 PM

Title: The Definitive "Free Island Project" Thread !!!
Post by: Alex Libman on April 19, 2008, 04:59:20 PM
Assume above choices are in the Caribbean and English is the lingua franca, unless noted otherwise.  Please let me know what I've missed.


The inclusion criteria is:









For the following that are independent nations, a 2013 GDP/capita estimate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_future_GDP_per_capita_estimates_%28PPP%29) was available: Bahamas ($34K), T&T ($26K), Barbados ($25K), Antigua & Barbuda ($16K), Saint Kitts & Nevis ($16), Saint Lucia ($15K), Grenada ($15K), Saint Vincent & Grenadines ($14K), and Cape Verde ($5K).

Other rankings...  Barbados (#31) and T&T (#67) appear in the Global Competitiveness Report (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Competitiveness_Report).  Barbados (#26), Bahamas (#27), T&T (#42), and Cape Verde (#46) appear in the Index of Economic Freedom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_of_Economic_Freedom_2003-2006).  T&T (#79), Bahamas (#90), and Barbados (98) appear in the Globalization Index (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Globalization_Index).  T&T (#19), Grenada (#37), and Cape Verde (#45) appear in Reporters Without Borders (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reporters_Without_Borders) press freedom ranking.


(Keywords because the search feature doesn't match poll options: Antigua and Barbuda, Bahamas, Barbados, Cape Verde, Dominica, Grenada, Saint Kitts and Nevis, Saint Lucia, Saint Vincent and the Grenadines, Trinidad and Tobago, Navassa Island, United States Virgin Islands, Anguilla, Bermuda, British Virgin Islands, Cayman Islands, Montserrat, Turks and Caicos Islands, Aruba, Netherlands Antilles, Clipperton, Guadeloupe, Martinique, Saint Barthélemy, Barthelemy, Saint Martin, Saint Pierre and Miquelon, Canary Islands, Azores, and Madeira.)


Discuss.  8)
Title: Re: The Definitive "Free Island Project" Thread !!!
Post by: YixilTesiphon on April 19, 2008, 05:11:49 PM
Navassa Island, but wresting control from the Fish & Parks service would be a problem.
Title: Re: The Definitive "Free Island Project" Thread !!!
Post by: Alex Libman on April 19, 2008, 05:22:23 PM
I agree that picking a U.S. dependency is better than a European one, one of the reasons being that the FSP and FIP could work together to lobby the government for more local independence.

Starting with a nation that's independent to begin with is a great advantage, of course, but many of those choices have large poor / government-dependent populations.  More research is needed - which is why I started this thread.
Title: Re: The Definitive "Free Island Project" Thread !!!
Post by: Dylboz on April 19, 2008, 05:44:44 PM
I picked Martinique just because it's freakin' beautiful! Still, the fact that it's French does present a serious problem. Anywhere you can't own guns legally is a place I'd be really, really hesitant to live. I looked into Costa Rica, and they do allow civilian gun ownership, that is more like an east coast U.S. city than out here in the wild, wild west of Arizona.

Long guns and shotguns don't require anything other than purchase from a licensed dealer (which creates de facto registration, since you have to submit to a background check that establishes your legal residency and lack of criminal record, as well as verifying your residency and other details) and being over 18 (or 16, I think, in some cases... can;t be sure about that) but handguns require a whole extra regime of intrusive government involvement, but sadly, it is better than NYC or Chicago.

There is a permitting process that includes justification for the gun (self-defense is not always enough, and it ultimately falls to some bureaucrat to arbitrarily decide whether your reason is good enough) and a class similar to the usual U.S. state level CCW course in the laws pertaining to carry, concealment, storage, and when you can actually use it. Lastly, and perhaps most onerously, there is a long and extensive battery of psychological tests to determine whether you're sufficiently sane to own a pistol. Oh, and did I mention that all of this is done in english and that you can't use an interpreter in any of the classes or tests, nor do they offer the forms in english, so you better be fluent in español!

Wasn't there a group looking at some island that was barely populated and only nominally under the territorial control of Venezuela? I remember seeing something about it... I'll see if I can find it and post it in this thread.
Title: Re: The Definitive "Free Island Project" Thread !!!
Post by: GreatGherkin on April 21, 2008, 12:50:52 AM
Fiji or the Solomon's for geographical purposes.
Title: Re: The Definitive "Free Island Project" Thread !!!
Post by: Taors on April 21, 2008, 01:12:13 AM
Atlantis.
Title: Re: The Definitive "Free Island Project" Thread !!!
Post by: GreatGherkin on April 21, 2008, 01:18:22 AM
In the Pegasus galaxy?
Title: Re: The Definitive "Free Island Project" Thread !!!
Post by: Alex Libman on April 21, 2008, 01:45:55 AM
I'm surprised more people aren't taking this seriously.  It probably has a far better shot of working than New Hampshire, and it can work very well in conjunction with it as well.


Fiji (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiji) or the Solomon's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solomon_Islands) for geographical purposes.

That's like 8,500 miles from New Hampshire in a straight line, not counting 2-4 plane transfers - probably more than 24 hours each way.  And the difference in sailing time / cost / risk is even greater!  Best to stay in one time-zone (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UTC%E2%88%925) (or one time-zone over (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UTC-4))...  What does South Pacific have that Caribbean doesn't?
Title: Re: The Definitive "Free Island Project" Thread !!!
Post by: GreatGherkin on April 21, 2008, 02:05:53 AM
That's like 8,500 miles from New Hampshire in a straight line, not counting 2-4 plane transfers - probably more than 24 hours each way.  And the difference in sailing time / cost / risk is even greater!   

Exactly!

What does South Pacific have that Caribbean doesn't?

See above
Title: Re: The Definitive "Free Island Project" Thread !!!
Post by: Alex Libman on April 21, 2008, 02:10:59 AM
What, you think U.S. army will have a more difficult time dealing with the distance than would-be Free Islanders?
Title: Re: The Definitive "Free Island Project" Thread !!!
Post by: GreatGherkin on April 21, 2008, 02:21:13 AM
I don't think they'd see it as worth the trouble.
Title: Re: The Definitive "Free Island Project" Thread !!!
Post by: Alex Libman on April 21, 2008, 04:28:02 AM
Exactly, while New Hampshire is sorta important...
Title: Re: The Definitive "Free Island Project" Thread !!!
Post by: Lothar on April 21, 2008, 04:34:19 AM
Regarding distance..  If Virgin Galactic, and others, are successful, you might be able to take a .5 hour flight from New York to New Zealand soon enough.  Earth is getting smaller.

The best place for free people in the not too distant future could be the moon.

In my opinion, an island would be simple do deal with, if a government wanted to.  Especially if there would be no fallout to any of its subjects.

I am of the opinion that perhaps the only potential territory on the planet that could be free is someplace that has no other qualities, other then that it would be free.  People who don't give a damn about freedom will always flock to a free state once the power of the free market, and production, starts influencing the quality of life.  Any place easy, or desirable, to live will be taken advantage of by those who don't care about freedom, at some point.  Any place with many natural resources would be desired by one of the world's superpowers.

Perhaps if it were arctic, desert, or possibly manufactured floating on, or beneath, the ocean, it would be less likely to be coveted by someone willing to try and take it.  A free market would provide for whatever was necessary for people to adapt to any environment.

Free people need frontiers to flee to from the state.  Colonizing in some government's established territory will likely not work.  This is why I am so interested in the private space industry.  It is likely the only hope for non-slave, human kind.  If the governments of the world continue allow commercial space ventures, real people could possibly beat the government agencies to the moon, but they almost certainly will to the asteroid belt.

Having said all that...  Maybe Cuba?  :)  Maybe they're ready to both give capitalism a try, and give the finger to the US by making it obvious how free we're not (I can see our presidents now talking about Cuba, the haven of terrorism).
Title: Re: The Definitive "Free Island Project" Thread !!!
Post by: jimmed on April 21, 2008, 08:12:40 AM
Someplace without island niggers. I'm completely fucking serious.
Title: Re: The Definitive "Free Island Project" Thread !!!
Post by: Blackie on April 21, 2008, 11:43:26 AM
I'll take the niggers in Jamacia. The Rasafarians want to repatriate to Africa/Ethiopia anyway.
Title: Re: The Definitive "Free Island Project" Thread !!!
Post by: sdubois92 on April 21, 2008, 01:51:06 PM
Anywhere that isn't hot is fine with me. Any islands in New Hampshire?
Title: Re: The Definitive "Free Island Project" Thread !!!
Post by: jimmed on April 21, 2008, 01:53:54 PM
I'll take the niggers in Jamacia. The Rasafarians want to repatriate to Africa/Ethiopia anyway.

Yeah, but not everyone on the island is Rastafarian.
Title: Re: The Definitive "Free Island Project" Thread !!!
Post by: Alex Libman on April 27, 2008, 12:19:30 AM
OK, my bad for including Saint Pierre and Miquelon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Pierre_and_Miquelon) in that poll, it's by Newfoundland and doesn't fit the climate criteria.  Also my bad for including Canary Islands (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canary_Islands), which are way to populous.


Anywhere that isn't hot is fine with me. Any islands in New Hampshire?

See here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Islands_of_New_Hampshire).  Maine and Mass took all the good ones...

Title: Re: The Definitive "Free Island Project" Thread !!!
Post by: Alex Libman on May 02, 2008, 02:02:15 PM
I've put together the below table from the remaining candidates, sorted by GDP/area density (right-most column).  The "To NH" column is a rough estimate I did of a straight line between Seabrook, NH (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seabrook%2C_New_Hampshire) and the capital city.  All distances are in miles.  GDP and population figures may be approximate due to differences in sources.

DepNameTo NHPopulationAreaP.D.GDPGDP/CapGDP D.
UKBermuda
798
65,000
21
3,095
$4,543.500
$69,900
$216.357
FranceSaint Martin
1,791
85,000
14
6,071
$1,751.000
$20,600
$125.071
FranceSaint Barthélemy
1,803
8,450
8
1,056
$312.650
$37,000
$39.081
NationBarbados
2,160
279,000
167
1,671
$5,496.300
$19,700
$32.912
Neth.Aruba
2,116
104,000
75
1,387
$2,267.200
$21,800
$30.229
FranceMartinique
2,032
401,000
436
920
$9,596.331
$23,931
$22.010
UKCayman Islands
1,735
47,000
100
470
$2,058.600
$43,800
$20.586
NationTrinidad and Tobago
2,290
1,333,000
1,980
673
$28,926.100
$21,700
$14.609
UKVirgin Islands (UK)
1,735
22,016
59
373
$847.616
$38,500
$14.366
FranceGuadeloupe
1,930
408,000
629
649
$8,886.240
$21,780
$14.128
Port.Madeira
2,982
245,806
320
768
$4,424.508
$18,000
$13.827
USAVirgin Islands (US)
1,737
108,448
133
815
$1,572.496
$14,500
$11.823
Neth.Antilles
2,147
192,000
309
621
$3,072.000
$16,000
$9.942
NationAntigua and Barbuda
1,870
85,000
171
497
$926.500
$10,900
$5.418
NationSaint Kitts and Nevis
1,844
42,696
101
423
$350.107
$8,200
$3.466
NationSaint Lucia
2,075
165,000
238
693
$792.000
$4,800
$3.328
Port.Azores
2,262
243,018
911
267
$2,995.440
$12,326
$3.288
NationGrenada
2,190
106,000
133
797
$413.400
$3,900
$3.108
UKAnguilla
1,777
13,477
39
342
$118.598
$8,800
$3.010
NationSaint Vincent & Grenadines
2,125
120,000
150
800
$432.000
$3,600
$2.880
NationCape Verde
3,403
499,796
1,557
321
$3,498.572
$7,000
$2.247
UKTurks and Caicos Islands
1,489
21,746
161
135
$250.079
$11,500
$1.553
NationBahamas
1,350
331,000
5,382
62
$7,513.700
$22,700
$1.396
NationDominica
1,999
67,000
291
230
$254.600
$3,800
$0.875
UKMontserrat
1,894
5,900
39
151
$20.060
$3,400
$0.514
USANavassa Island
1,715
0
2
0
$0.000
$0
$0.000
FranceClipperton
3,216
0
9
0
$0.000
$0
$0.000


Title: Re: The Definitive "Free Island Project" Thread !!!
Post by: burnthebeautiful on May 02, 2008, 02:53:12 PM
All of the European islands are automatically discluded as far as I'm concerned - it is impossible to achieve freedom within the European Union. To become a member of the European Union, the countries government has to agree to do all sorts of anti-freedom crap. Member states are forced to 'co-operate' and 'harmonize', which occasionally means abolishing laws and lowering taxes, but most of the time it means raising taxes and passing laws in order to become equally as tyrannical as the rest of the EU in order to 'harmonize'. I have no faith whatsoever that any EU-member state can become anything even approaching pro-freedom. There are things in the EU constituation that demands the countries not legalize drugs and so on. The only way for an island within the EU to become pro freedom is to leave the EU, and in order to do that you'd either have to convince the country the island belongs to to secede, or convince the countries government to let the island secede from the country, which isn't likely. Also the island should be an independent nation and not belong to another, much larger, country.

As for the island nations, I don't really know anything about any of them. I'm interested in looking into them.
Title: Re: The Definitive "Free Island Project" Thread !!!
Post by: Blackie on May 02, 2008, 03:10:21 PM
it is impossible to achieve freedom within the European Union.
I think you can achieve freedom just about anywhere.
Title: Re: The Definitive "Free Island Project" Thread !!!
Post by: Taors on May 02, 2008, 06:55:56 PM
it is impossible to achieve freedom within the European Union.
I think you can achieve freedom just about anywhere.

Agreed.
Title: Re: The Definitive "Free Island Project" Thread !!!
Post by: SnowDog on May 02, 2008, 08:08:16 PM
You left out Britain's Pitcairn island. Only something like 38 people live on the island, which includes 3 uninhabited islands, down from about 250 in the 1930s. The other thing interesting about the island is that the UK is looking to divest itself from managing the island. If the people on the island wanted independence, Britain would probably grant it. If anyone were really serious about starting a new free land by dominating the population, this would be an ideal consideration. Most people looking for a freedom movement which would work, seem to back away from this island, and I think it's because they're never really serious about the idea.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pitcairn_Islands

http://www.government.pn/
Title: Re: The Definitive "Free Island Project" Thread !!!
Post by: Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith) on May 02, 2008, 11:11:59 PM
I voted US Virgin Islands because my friends recently got back from a trip there and they said it was awesome, but then I got more realistic and thought about how the UK's empire is receding and that it would be more realistic to attain secession from the British than from the USA.
Title: Re: The Definitive "Free Island Project" Thread !!!
Post by: Alex Libman on May 03, 2008, 01:30:58 AM
You left out Britain's Pitcairn island.

Yeah, the reason that I did is because it's 6000 miles from New Hampshire, but that's a straight line.  Getting there is a bigger pain than I want to think about...  Getting to Tahiti alone takes at least 2-3 days by plane with all the transfers (which would still be the case even if you didn't have to go through New Zealand) and costs thousands!  And then, according to Wikipedia:

Quote
To get to Pitcairn it is necessary to fly to Tahiti, then Mangareva, then embark on a further 30-hour boat ride. There is one boat every several months. Alternately, passage can be obtained aboard a few freighters out of New Zealand - it is a seven-day trip via freighter. Leaving the island is hit-and-miss; one leaves when transportation happens by, not necessarily when one wishes to go.

And, remember, if you want something shipped to you from the outside world, that package would have to make the same costly trip!  Need a dentist?  Tough luck, you just missed him, the dentist stops by in April.  Etc.  What kind of life is that?

So let's stick to the 3,500 mile limit, some place people can fly (or even sail) to from NH with every reasonable convenience.  Flying / boating between Caribbean islands is far, far cheaper and less dangerous than through open Pacific.  It only takes 3-5 hours to fly on a full-sized passenger plane from Boston to Bahamas, Puerto Rico, or Trinidad, and then you can hire smaller planes / boats to take you where you need to go and get there in less than one day total.

The vast majority of would-be Free Islanders wouldn't be looking for a totally inaccessible place to hide from the world (and, trust me, the U.S. Navy can get to any place on earth pretty darn fast).  They'd be looking for a smaller and warmer alternative to New Hampshire, perhaps some place where they can vacation before they are ready to move there permanently.  And the island(s) should be big enough to comfortably settle 50,000 people or more - seems very high, I know, but the FSP is working with seven-digit populations in NH.

If you want a perfect place to hide, save up money and wait a few decades for the "Free Space-station Project".  ;)

If you want a more realistic short-term scenario than the FSP, which would also complement it through mutual cooperation, I can think of nothing better than a Free Island Project due south of NH.  Skiing in the FSP, surfing in the FIP - what could possibly be better?!  8)
Title: Re: The Definitive "Free Island Project" Thread !!!
Post by: Alex Libman on May 03, 2008, 03:07:23 AM
... I got more realistic and thought about how the UK's empire is receding and that it would be more realistic to attain secession from the British than from the USA.

That's probably the first question we'll need to ask ourselves, which political migration (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_migration) scenario is more realistic:

(1)  "Taking over", or rather "politically influencing" an American territory like the U.S. Virgin Islands in pretty much the same way the Free State Project is hoping to do with New Hampshire.  A major advantage here is that the two can work together to lobby the U.S. Federal Government for greater independence, and there are no Commonwealth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commonwealth_of_Nations), CariCom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caribbean_Community) (yet), or UN hoops to jump through.  A disadvantage is that it's pulling all our eggs in one basket.

(2)  Doing the same to a foreign (most likely British) dependency by moving in and, even more importantly, using our dollars to encourage the locals to call for independence.  A similar scenario we're not discussing at this time is taking over (or buying) island(s) that are a dependency of a Latin American country.  The advantage of this scenario is that there are as many possibilities as there are suitable islands in the sea.  The disadvantage is that dealing with a government would be very costly, most larger islands are already populated, and getting the locals to come on board would still be as difficult as in the 3rd scenario.

(3)  Taking a small island nation that's already sovereign and pulling it toward a libertarian form of government.  This feels like we're starting a huge leap ahead of scenarios 1 and 2, but the choices of sovereign nations this could work with is rather limited, and in many those cases the locals depend on welfare from tourism industry taxation.

I think we should further research scenario #3 first, because it doesn't depend on the unpredictable whim of a large mainland government.

Take, for example, the nation of Dominica (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominica) (not to be confused with the much-larger Dominican Republic), the smallest sovereign economy on our list with population of 71,727 people at around $6,520 per-capita GDP - still far to large to be effectively influenced from outside.  (Those numbers came from Wikipedia, while the numbers in the above table came from CIA fact book and are probably older.)  The populace (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Dominica) almost entirely consists of descendants of African slaves with a couple thousand pre-Columbian natives.  And Dominica has recently joined the "Bolivarian Alternative for the Americas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolivarian_Alternative_for_the_Americas)", which may or may not mean the locals are as socialist as the fellow members Cuba and Venezuela, but there's a good chance those scumbags would pump in money to protect Dominica from "evil capitalist carpetbaggers" like us.

Barbados (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbados) has the freest economy of the sovereign nations on the list (or at least among those that were big enough to be included in a world-wide study).  The only tax seems to be a 15% sales (VAT) tax, but many things are tax-exempt or have a lower rate.  All this is meaningless, of course, unless you can get a citizenship there, which currently requires seven years of residence there (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbados_nationality_law).  Etc.

Someone should do a feasibility study on the U.S. Virgin Islands (the only option for scenario 1 really) and the 10 sovereign nations on that list (scenario 3).  If there are realistic possibilities - great, scenario 2 isn't even worth looking into.  If all of them are a dead end, scenario 2 is all we'll have left.
Title: Re: The Definitive "Free Island Project" Thread !!!
Post by: mikehz on May 03, 2008, 11:07:58 AM
Small islands are available for sale all over the world. Once bought, condos could be built and timeshares sold to libertarians who, as in Atlas Shrugged, could live at least part of their time in freedom. Some might choose to move their permanently. You could have dual citizenship. Retirement condos could be sold so that you can at least hope to spend some of your life living in freedom.

At first, much of the funding would have to come from volunteers who want to see a libertarian society established. As time passes, an increasing amount would derive from rents and sales, along with services provided on the island. With no government economic restrictions, a thriving free market would ensure future economic prosperity.

Once the population is large enough, a vote is held for independence.

I think the idea has merit. The philosophy needs a test case; an example one can point to and say, "See? libertarianism DOES work!" One of the biggest obstacles for the average person is the objection that "libertarianism hasn't been tried anywhere before."
Title: Re: The Definitive "Free Island Project" Thread !!!
Post by: Alex Libman on May 03, 2008, 11:52:17 AM
Exactly.

But just buying an island wouldn't make it a sovereign nation, independent of other nations' laws and taxation.  A special arrangement could be made, where the nation selling the island agrees not to exempt this island from those things.  Most nations won't do that, but a small archipelago nation with more islands than money might.  Of course having a sovereign libertarian nation of our own would be the best thing.
Title: Re: The Definitive "Free Island Project" Thread !!!
Post by: mikehz on May 03, 2008, 12:19:53 PM
Once the occupants vote for independence, they cut ties with the illegal claimants of the land. The Untied States and other nations are forever tauting the right of self-determination.

However, one can expect the illegal authorities to attempt to exert authority over the newly independent state. This is what happened with the short lived Republic of Minerva, when a group of libertarians occupied unclaimed land in the South Pacific. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Minerva (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Minerva) Tonga attacked and quickly occupied the new nation. The mistake of the founders of the new country was in not recognizing the need for defense. In the real world, you are sovereign only of what you can actually defend.

This fact was recognized by Paddy Roy Bates when he founded Sealand. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Sealand (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Sealand) He ensured sovereignty by mounting a naval gun on the newly created country. He has also had to defend his nation several times against hostile takeovers.

To ensure freedom and independence, one has to be willing to fight for one's rights.
Title: Re: The Definitive "Free Island Project" Thread !!!
Post by: jimmed on May 03, 2008, 01:14:07 PM
To ensure freedom and independence, one has to be willing to fight for one's rights.

Which pretty much means posessing a nuclear weapon.
Title: Re: The Definitive "Free Island Project" Thread !!!
Post by: mikehz on May 03, 2008, 09:35:08 PM
To ensure freedom and independence, one has to be willing to fight for one's rights.

Which pretty much means posessing a nuclear weapon.

Not at all. Many small countries survive just fine without nukes. What it DOES mean is making the effort too great for anyone to bother with. No doubt the Brits could defeat Sealand if they really wanted to do so. But, the cost would be too great.

Many small islands belong to small nations with little in the way of military force. Minerva could easily have defeated Tonga IF the residents had possessed a small gunboat, or 5-inch gun.
Title: Re: The Definitive "Free Island Project" Thread !!!
Post by: jimmed on May 03, 2008, 09:38:28 PM
To ensure freedom and independence, one has to be willing to fight for one's rights.

Which pretty much means posessing a nuclear weapon.

Not at all. Many small countries survive just fine without nukes. What it DOES mean is making the effort too great for anyone to bother with. No doubt the Brits could defeat Sealand if they really wanted to do so. But, the cost would be too great.

Many small islands belong to small nations with little in the way of military force. Minerva could easily have defeated Tonga IF the residents had possessed a small gunboat, or 5-inch gun.

I'm talking about creating a new nation. There is no way they're going to put up with you without you being VERY serious about maintining your independance.
Title: Re: The Definitive "Free Island Project" Thread !!!
Post by: Alex on May 14, 2008, 09:23:14 PM
Someplace without island niggers. I'm completely fucking serious.

Any place without this guy. :-\
Title: Re: The Definitive "Free Island Project" Thread !!!
Post by: jimmed on May 14, 2008, 09:27:07 PM
Someplace without island niggers. I'm completely fucking serious.

Any place without this guy. :-\

I said niggers, not black people. Big difference. Don't want any like those in Haiti that are professional porch monkeys. Go catch some fish, motherfucker!
Title: Re: The Definitive "Free Island Project" Thread !!!
Post by: Alex Libman on May 14, 2008, 09:53:14 PM
How much orange soda will it take to appease them?  :lol:
Title: Re: The Definitive "Free Island Project" Thread !!!
Post by: Taors on May 14, 2008, 10:25:59 PM
Someplace without island niggers. I'm completely fucking serious.

Any place without this guy. :-\

You'd shoot yourself after a week.
Title: Re: The Definitive "Free Island Project" Thread !!!
Post by: Jetfire on May 14, 2008, 10:34:18 PM
I'm ignorant... whats the "Free Island Project"
Title: Re: The Definitive "Free Island Project" Thread !!!
Post by: Alex Libman on May 14, 2008, 10:58:40 PM
AFAIK, nothing of the sort existed before.  I just started this thread just to brainstorm the possibility.

Same as the Free State Project (http://www.freestateproject.org/) [WP] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_State_Project) but on a smaller scale.  (See first post on this thread for island selection criteria I suggested.)
Title: Re: The Definitive "Free Island Project" Thread !!!
Post by: Jetfire on May 14, 2008, 11:11:27 PM
Meh probably gonna move to new Hampshire
Title: Re: The Definitive "Free Island Project" Thread !!!
Post by: Alex Libman on May 14, 2008, 11:51:36 PM
One doesn't really compete with the other.  The NH summer and autumn are beautiful and one usually has enough momentum to go through the holidays, but even the most devoted Free Staters will want some place warm to vacation come February.  ;)
Title: Re: The Definitive "Free Island Project" Thread !!!
Post by: mikehz on May 15, 2008, 10:40:24 AM
How about...an island in New Hampshire?
Title: Re: The Definitive "Free Island Project" Thread !!!
Post by: Alex Libman on May 15, 2008, 11:17:52 AM
Read above.  Very limited choices (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Islands_of_New_Hampshire), and cold as hell in winter.

Artificial islands are an interesting far-future possibility, but that's a completely different fantasy.
Title: Re: The Definitive "Free Island Project" Thread !!!
Post by: Alex Libman on May 19, 2008, 12:37:21 PM
Is anyone interested in the idea at all?  Because I don't have the time to develop it further (do more research, start a Web-site, etc)...
Title: Re: The Definitive "Free Island Project" Thread !!!
Post by: BonerJoe on May 19, 2008, 01:01:06 PM
Probably not.
Title: Re: The Definitive "Free Island Project" Thread !!!
Post by: Alex Libman on May 19, 2008, 01:41:10 PM
Having seriously considered and summarily rejected the FSP, I think its completely logical to extend this opinion to a fucking island.

I've become skeptical of FSP because of New Hampshire's 1+ million non-libertarians, with more moving from Mass at a rate Free Staters could never match.  An island wouldn't have this problem, and it might even be a sovereign country to begin with.
Title: Re: The Definitive "Free Island Project" Thread !!!
Post by: BonerJoe on May 19, 2008, 01:56:47 PM
Having seriously considered and summarily rejected the FSP, I think its completely logical to extend this opinion to a fucking island.

I've become skeptical of FSP because of New Hampshire's 1+ million non-libertarians, with more moving from Mass at a rate Free Staters could never match.


I figured this out back in 2003.

Quote
An island wouldn't have this problem, and it might even be a sovereign country to begin with.

Water, trading, and dealing with the natives will be a huge problem.
Title: Re: The Definitive "Free Island Project" Thread !!!
Post by: Alex Libman on May 19, 2008, 02:17:57 PM
Problems can be solved, given people and money.
Title: Re: The Definitive "Free Island Project" Thread !!!
Post by: Andy on May 19, 2008, 02:39:25 PM
Having seriously considered and summarily rejected the FSP, I think its completely logical to extend this opinion to a fucking island.

I've become skeptical of FSP because of New Hampshire's 1+ million non-libertarians, with more moving from Mass at a rate Free Staters could never match.


I figured this out back in 2003.

Quote
An island wouldn't have this problem, and it might even be a sovereign country to begin with.

Water, trading, and dealing with the natives will be a huge problem.

Small pox blankets.
Title: Re: The Definitive "Free Island Project" Thread !!!
Post by: BonerJoe on May 19, 2008, 02:47:45 PM
Problems can be solved, given people and money.

We don't have enough people to commit to moving to even NH. What the fuck makes you think they're gonna take off to a shitty island?
Title: Re: The Definitive "Free Island Project" Thread !!!
Post by: Alex Libman on May 19, 2008, 02:54:08 PM
National sovereignty?

Warm sandy beaches year-round?

Solarpanel-powered seawater filtering machines piped into your backyard swimming pool and irrigation system for cannabis and fruit trees?
Title: Re: The Definitive "Free Island Project" Thread !!!
Post by: BonerJoe on May 19, 2008, 02:58:49 PM
National sovereignty?

Warm sandy beaches year-round?

Solarpanel-powered seawater filtering machines piped into your backyard swimming pool and irrigation system for cannabis and fruit trees?


Go raise $10 billion dollars then we'll talk about it.
Title: Re: The Definitive "Free Island Project" Thread !!!
Post by: rabidfurby on May 19, 2008, 03:03:13 PM
National sovereignty?

Warm sandy beaches year-round?

Solarpanel-powered seawater filtering machines piped into your backyard swimming pool and irrigation system for cannabis and fruit trees?


Go raise $10 billion dollars then we'll talk about it.

What do you think he's doing? All he needs is 4.2 million from each registered member of this BBS and he's good to go.
Title: Re: The Definitive "Free Island Project" Thread !!!
Post by: Alex Libman on May 19, 2008, 03:04:07 PM
Go raise $10 billion dollars then we'll talk about it.

Good thing Forbes already made me a list of people to call, but $10 billion is 6-7 times the GDP of U.S. Virgin Islands, for example (see table above (http://bbs.freetalklive.com/index.php?topic=20756.msg383278#msg383278)), and we are talking about a grouping of ~60 different islands, and one small island would be enough to get this started.  New Hampshire's GSP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_GDP_%28nominal%29): $56 billion.

(I know GDP is a measure of total yearly production, not the cost of buying and developing an island, but I'm just using it to provide scale.  My whole point is: it's still a heck of a lot more realistic than the Free State Project.  And warmer.  And when you invite Puerto Rican girls on a speedboat ride to New Hampshire, as opposed to your own private island, they don't get as excited.)
Title: Re: The Definitive "Free Island Project" Thread !!!
Post by: BonerJoe on May 19, 2008, 03:41:21 PM
Go raise $10 billion dollars then we'll talk about it.

Good thing Forbes already made me a list of people to call, but $10 billion is 6-7 times the GDP of U.S. Virgin Islands, for example (see table above (http://bbs.freetalklive.com/index.php?topic=20756.msg383278#msg383278)), and we are talking about a grouping of ~60 different islands, and one small island would be enough to get this started.  New Hampshire's GSP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_GDP_%28nominal%29): $56 billion.

(I know GDP is a measure of total yearly production, not the cost of buying and developing an island, but I'm just using it to provide scale.  My whole point is: it's still a heck of a lot more realistic than the Free State Project.  And warmer.  And when you invite Puerto Rican girls on a speedboat ride to New Hampshire, as opposed to your own private island, they don't get as excited.)


Get crackin', honkey.
Title: Re: The Definitive "Free Island Project" Thread !!!
Post by: BonerJoe on May 19, 2008, 03:48:03 PM
Sakal/CAI just needs to buy an island.
Title: Re: The Definitive "Free Island Project" Thread !!!
Post by: Alex Libman on May 19, 2008, 04:20:13 PM
OK, so I've been Jewing my way into some super-secret personal cell phone numbers.  Larry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_Ellison) said he already had an island, his huge yacht!  But little did he know that I had Roma (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Abramovich) on the other line, and he's getting an even bigger yacht (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_motor_yachts_by_length) this year!  So the two started talking, and the new line of oil-powered Oracle servers should be out this fall.  I said I prefer PostgreSQL (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PostgreSQL) and solar panels, so they both hung up on me, but this did give me an idea for a Free State cruise (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cruise_ship) line...  :lol:
Title: Re: The Definitive "Free Island Project" Thread !!!
Post by: Taors on May 19, 2008, 04:33:28 PM
I'm still undecided about the FSP. I don't want to rule it out completely, but the concerns some people have raised (about the socialists coming in from Mass and the 1,000,000+ non-libertarians already living there) have me on the fence. I think the west would probably be better for a project like this. It baffles me that they chose NH instead of somewhere like Montana or Alaska.

With that said, there's no way in hell I'm joining a Free Island Project.
Title: Re: The Definitive "Free Island Project" Thread !!!
Post by: mikehz on May 19, 2008, 05:36:57 PM
Alaska would have been a good choice. It's already virtually a separate country, has a strong libertarian party and a strong independence movement, and has a clause in its constitution saying it can opt out of the American union at will. On the other hand, it's cold!
Title: Re: The Definitive "Free Island Project" Thread !!!
Post by: Alex Libman on May 19, 2008, 06:32:52 PM
Had I known about FSP before New Hampshire was chosen, I would have favored Alaska too.  Between (natural and completely not-man-made) "Global Warming" and the "Pacific Century (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific_Century)", Alaska is sure to come out on top!
Title: Re: The Definitive "Free Island Project" Thread !!!
Post by: Taors on May 19, 2008, 07:19:06 PM
On the other hand, it's cold!

And New Hampshire isn't?
Title: Re: The Definitive "Free Island Project" Thread !!!
Post by: BonerJoe on May 19, 2008, 08:00:40 PM
Pff, at least in AK, you don't get teased by a little glimmer of summer.  Its cold, its gonna stay cold, and tomorrow it'll be cold as it was yesterday.

As a reprieve, it is tolerable for a two month stretch, so you can bury your dead.

At least in AK you can grow huge veggie gardens because of the extended sunlight periods.
Title: Re: The Definitive "Free Island Project" Thread !!!
Post by: BonerJoe on May 19, 2008, 08:01:16 PM
Alaska would have been a good choice. It's already virtually a separate country, has a strong libertarian party and a strong independence movement, and has a clause in its constitution saying it can opt out of the American union at will. On the other hand, it's cold!

Fuck the cold.

At least they won't arrest you for having a small amount of weed.

Fuck NH.
Title: Re: The Definitive "Free Island Project" Thread !!!
Post by: mikehz on May 27, 2008, 11:27:56 AM
This, from today's Lew Rockwell, may be a viable option:

http://www.wired.com/science/planetearth/news/2008/05/seasteading?currentPage=all (http://www.wired.com/science/planetearth/news/2008/05/seasteading?currentPage=all)

One of these selling time shares for libertarians might work. Dual citizenship? Or, retirement condos. At least, you can live out your final days in freedom.
Title: Re: The Definitive "Free Island Project" Thread !!!
Post by: Alex Libman on May 27, 2008, 11:47:16 AM
Great article, Mike, thanks.  There are many advantages to building your own "land", and one disadvantage - the U.N. won't recognize it as a sovereign country, like they would an island...
Title: Re: The Definitive "Free Island Project" Thread !!!
Post by: mikehz on May 27, 2008, 12:04:08 PM
Screw the UN. Who cares? Anyway, there may be some good advantages for NOT being recognized by the UN--or other countries, for that matter.

In any case, I don't recognize the UN.
Title: Re: The Definitive "Free Island Project" Thread !!!
Post by: ziggy_encaoua on May 27, 2008, 12:10:49 PM
I've family who live in St Lucia sadly they're a bunch of cunts

I hate to say freedom island not a new fantasy

I've heard plenty of libertarians over the years say how they going to buy an island & live free non have dome so
Title: Re: The Definitive "Free Island Project" Thread !!!
Post by: ciscokid1024 on December 15, 2009, 04:46:04 PM
What about Costa Rica? I heard that they were already pretty libertarian.
Title: Re: The Definitive "Free Island Project" Thread !!!
Post by: AL the Inconspicuous on December 15, 2009, 11:00:36 PM
Costa Rica (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Costa_Rica) is too big and only like 9% libertarian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Movimiento_Libertario) (about as much as New Hampshire if we had open multiparty elections here), with many of those "libertarians" being more Milton (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milton_Friedman) than David Friedman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_D._Friedman) kind.  They also rank (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_rankings_of_Costa_Rica) #49 is economic freedom (#5 in Latin America (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_America)).  The "FIP" would need to start with a small place that isn't crawling with a million non-libertarians and expand from there.  That's why a small island is ideal.
Title: Re: The Definitive "Free Island Project" Thread !!!
Post by: Bill Brasky on December 16, 2009, 12:44:07 AM
You can (probably) enjoy greater freedom in Costa Rica if you're independently wealthy than you can here for the same dollar value.  If you had, say $250k for retirement here, you'd be pretty wealthy there.  Without having to work, living in the "gringo" areas, and only needing to socialize for personal reasons in choice places, you'd probably have a really nice life.  

I wouldn't try to live there on the cheap, though.  You'd probably get chewed to pieces.  

Also, its not an island. 
Title: Re: The Definitive "Free Island Project" Thread !!!
Post by: TimeLady Victorious on December 16, 2009, 12:49:33 AM
If anyone's actually serious about this, I intend on buying one of those crappy islands off Maine or Nova Scotia someday.

As long as you give allegiance and submit yourself to the beneficient yoke of the God-Empress April :twisted:
Title: Re: The Definitive "Free Island Project" Thread !!!
Post by: AL the Inconspicuous on February 28, 2010, 03:41:59 AM
I was going to bump this thread by suggesting one of the islands (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_islands_of_Chile) of Chile (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_rankings_of_Chile), especially in light of a conservative government just being elected there, but then it backed Argentina's aggression against the Falkland islands (http://bbs.freetalklive.com/index.php?topic=32793) (which overwhelmingly choose to be British), and now the quake...  :?


Now I have nothing to bump it with.  Oh horror of horrors, there goes my reputation for never bumping without a good cause...  :lol:
Title: Re: The Definitive "Free Island Project" Thread !!!
Post by: TimeLady Victorious on February 28, 2010, 04:58:14 AM
What about one of the islands here?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand_Sub-Antarctic_Islands

Most of them are habitable (habitable like Montana is habitable, not habitable like Costa Rica), and unpopulated.
Title: Re: The Definitive "Free Island Project" Thread !!!
Post by: AL the Inconspicuous on February 28, 2010, 05:42:09 AM
Flight time from New Hampshire is a negative.  I understand flying Due South cause you're tired of winter, but flying all the way around the world is ridiculous.  Also Caribbean and Chilean island are more easily accessible from mainland, which means much cheaper and more reliable access to world trade.  No one wants a Robinson Crusoe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robinson_Crusoe) type of a "liberty island" experience, I want Hong Kong times Las Vegas times ten!
Title: Re: The Definitive "Free Island Project" Thread !!!
Post by: TimeLady Victorious on February 28, 2010, 09:16:18 AM
_I_ want a liberty island. However, if you don't get more people attracted to your island (or perhaps groups of islands taken over from the En Zed government peacefully?) you'll either get pushed out by men with guns (not just governments - pirates, too) or your descendants might suffer from a "founder's effect" created by centuries of cousins marrying cousins.
Title: Re: The Definitive "Free Island Project" Thread !!!
Post by: AL the Inconspicuous on February 28, 2010, 09:35:26 AM
"Liberty through obscurity" is a self-contradiction.
Title: Re: The Definitive "Free Island Project" Thread !!!
Post by: miamiballoonguy on February 28, 2010, 10:07:31 AM
In the Pegasus galaxy?

Well it's not there now anymore, is it?  Or did u see the series finale?
Title: Re: The Definitive "Free Island Project" Thread !!!
Post by: TimeLady Victorious on February 28, 2010, 10:29:52 AM
"Liberty through obscurity" is a self-contradiction.


What makes you so sure about that?
Title: Re: The Definitive "Free Island Project" Thread !!!
Post by: AL the Inconspicuous on February 28, 2010, 04:17:56 PM
Because if you have "liberty through obscurity" you aren't free to not be obscure, which will likely impact your lifestyle quite a bit, as I've discovered with my recent submergence into the carless paperless black-market-coding trailer-trash lifestyle.
Title: Re: The Definitive "Free Island Project" Thread !!!
Post by: Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith) on February 28, 2010, 04:23:43 PM
Why don't you buy a motorcycle AL?  Registration should be dirt cheap and at least you wouldn't have to ride the bus.
Title: Re: The Definitive "Free Island Project" Thread !!!
Post by: AL the Inconspicuous on February 28, 2010, 04:42:37 PM
I only ride the bus in an emergency, like if I can't walk or get a taxi.  Hell, even Muslims can eat pork and drink liqueur if their survival depends on it!  Since I got rid of my car no one has ever pulled me over or asked for an ID. 

Now can we stay on topic?  This thread is about islands.
Title: Re: The Definitive "Free Island Project" Thread !!!
Post by: Rillion on February 28, 2010, 05:09:49 PM
How about Clairview Island (http://www.privateislandsonline.com/clairview-island-australia.htm), Australia? 

(http://www.privateislandsonline.com/island_pics/sale/clairview-island-australia-1.jpg)
(http://www.privateislandsonline.com/island_maps/sale/clairview-island-australia-1.jpg)

Region      Australia, Oceania
Price    AUD $6,000,000
Status    for sale
Size    659 acres
Location    Central Queensland, Australia

Quote
Situated in the Pacific Ocean along Australia's famed Capricorn Coast, this large island is a varied paradise of lush tropical forest, classically Aussie grassland and long stretches of the beautiful beaches that make this region a prime holiday destination.

The island is a freehold property and has been subdivided into 5 seperate allotments (available for single or combination sale). As each lot has a unique character and level of development, there's sure to be a perfect match for every island lover. The entire property is available for AUS $6M.

Bordering the Coral Sea and Clairview Creek, Lot 1 is a gorgeous undeveloped parcel with stunning ocean vistas and 3 pretty beaches. The "dog-leg" shaped Lot 2 also features lovely sandy beaches, breathtaking ocean and island views and stretches of salt flats at one end. Lot 3 is also undeveloped, with a similar topography of beaches, grassland and salt flats- perfect for an idyllic little summer home!

The ocean views of Lot 4 expand over Broadsound Reach, and this very attractive property has pristine and pretty beaches stretching down to the Coral Sea. Located at the southern end of the property, Lot 5 is well-developed and perfect for either for commercial or residential use, and the infrastructure includes two private airstrips, a large airplane hanger, and a cozy little beach cottage. Partially fenced, the island contains two large dams, various farming equipment along the lines of tractors, slashers and trucks.

An individual parcel ranges from AUS 1.5-2 million, and the sale may be of individual or combined lots tailored to suit your particular needs. A perfect opportunity to own a slice of paradise on the Tropic of Capricorn!
Title: Re: The Definitive "Free Island Project" Thread !!!
Post by: Bill Brasky on February 28, 2010, 05:31:11 PM
If it exists under the law of Australia, you don't want it.  They're destroying the 'net there at a furious pace. 
Title: Re: The Definitive "Free Island Project" Thread !!!
Post by: Rillion on February 28, 2010, 06:21:43 PM
If it exists under the law of Australia, you don't want it.  They're destroying the 'net there at a furious pace. 

Yeah, it's a shame.  It's like England and Texas had an enormous love child. 
Title: Re: The Definitive "Free Island Project" Thread !!!
Post by: Bill Brasky on March 01, 2010, 02:39:54 AM
If it exists under the law of Australia, you don't want it.  They're destroying the 'net there at a furious pace. 

Yeah, it's a shame.  It's like England and Texas had an enormous love child. 

A bow-legged good 'ol boy with bad teeth, stuffed into a pram with a full compliment of signal jamming hardware.

One would think there is a conspicuous absence of violent hordes, brick throwing mobs, and ne'er-do-wells who might care to engage in a sporting bout of fisticuffs with the bastard progeny.  Or roll the fucking cocksucker into a volcano filled with sharks.  My totally badass literary invention, a sharkano.  Deal with it. 
Title: Re: The Definitive "Free Island Project" Thread !!!
Post by: AL the Inconspicuous on March 01, 2010, 03:04:37 AM
If it's a matter of buying or leasing (under the condition of total autonomy for X years) an island from an existing government, there should be plenty of more willing governments here in the Western Hemisphere.  Australia is a rich nanny state, while many countries in the Caribbean could use the money.
Title: Re: The Definitive "Free Island Project" Thread !!!
Post by: Bill Brasky on March 01, 2010, 04:35:16 AM
If it's a matter of buying or leasing (under the condition of total autonomy for X years) an island from an existing government, there should be plenty of more willing governments here in the Western Hemisphere.  Australia is a rich nanny state, while many countries in the Caribbean could use the money.


I think you mean, many countries in the Caribbean are flipping through another decade-long installment of Publishers Clearinghouse rule, before their leaders seek asylum in Europe.  

You can buy land for a billion dollars, and the next government may invalidate the purchase.  

What you have to buy is a piece of the government, not the land.  The land is a commodity, and has value.  But it doesn't grant you any rights.  
Title: Re: The Definitive "Free Island Project" Thread !!!
Post by: Alex Libman on May 07, 2010, 09:12:33 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jarvis_Island

Anyone, anyone?

Lame!