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Poll

As a hypothetical thought exercise...  Which of the below islands / archipelagos would be (or contain) the ideal island for the FIP?

Nation of Antigua and Barbuda
- 0 (0%)
Nation of Bahamas
- 2 (5.9%)
Nation of Barbados
- 3 (8.8%)
Nation of Cape Verde  (Atlantic, Pt-Lang)
- 0 (0%)
Nation of Commonwealth of Dominica
- 1 (2.9%)
Nation of Grenada
- 0 (0%)
Nation of Saint Kitts and Nevis
- 0 (0%)
Nation of Saint Lucia
- 0 (0%)
Nation of Saint Vincent and the Grenadines
- 0 (0%)
Nation of Trinidad and Tobago
- 4 (11.8%)
USA's Virgin Islands
- 6 (17.6%)
USA's Navassa Island  (or USA's other tiny Caribbean islands)
- 1 (2.9%)
UK's Anguilla
- 1 (2.9%)
UK's Bermuda  (Atlantic)
- 1 (2.9%)
UK's Virgin Islands
- 1 (2.9%)
UK's Cayman Islands
- 1 (2.9%)
UK's Montserrat
- 1 (2.9%)
UK's Turks and Caicos Islands
- 0 (0%)
Netherlands' Aruba
- 1 (2.9%)
Netherlands' Antilles
- 1 (2.9%)
France's Clipperton
- 0 (0%)
France's Guadeloupe
- 0 (0%)
France's Martinique
- 1 (2.9%)
France's Saint Barthélemy
- 0 (0%)
France's Saint Martin
- 1 (2.9%)
France's Saint Pierre and Miquelon
- 3 (8.8%)
Spain's Canary Islands  (Atlantic)
- 1 (2.9%)
Portugal's Azores  (Atlantic)
- 0 (0%)
Portugal's Madeira  (Atlantic)
- 0 (0%)
Other - Caribbean / GoM region
- 2 (5.9%)
Other - Outer Atlantic
- 1 (2.9%)
Other - East Pacific
- 1 (2.9%)

Total Members Voted: 15


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Author Topic: The Definitive "Free Island Project" Thread !!!  (Read 25094 times)

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sdubois92

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Re: The Definitive "Free Island Project" Thread !!!
« Reply #15 on: April 21, 2008, 01:51:06 PM »

Anywhere that isn't hot is fine with me. Any islands in New Hampshire?
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jimmed

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Re: The Definitive "Free Island Project" Thread !!!
« Reply #16 on: April 21, 2008, 01:53:54 PM »

I'll take the niggers in Jamacia. The Rasafarians want to repatriate to Africa/Ethiopia anyway.

Yeah, but not everyone on the island is Rastafarian.
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Alex Libman

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Re: The Definitive "Free Island Project" Thread !!!
« Reply #17 on: April 27, 2008, 12:19:30 AM »

OK, my bad for including Saint Pierre and Miquelon in that poll, it's by Newfoundland and doesn't fit the climate criteria.  Also my bad for including Canary Islands, which are way to populous.


Anywhere that isn't hot is fine with me. Any islands in New Hampshire?

See here.  Maine and Mass took all the good ones...

« Last Edit: May 02, 2008, 02:02:08 PM by Alex Libman »
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Alex Libman

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Re: The Definitive "Free Island Project" Thread !!!
« Reply #18 on: May 02, 2008, 02:02:15 PM »

I've put together the below table from the remaining candidates, sorted by GDP/area density (right-most column).  The "To NH" column is a rough estimate I did of a straight line between Seabrook, NH and the capital city.  All distances are in miles.  GDP and population figures may be approximate due to differences in sources.

DepNameTo NHPopulationAreaP.D.GDPGDP/CapGDP D.
UKBermuda
798
65,000
21
3,095
$4,543.500
$69,900
$216.357
FranceSaint Martin
1,791
85,000
14
6,071
$1,751.000
$20,600
$125.071
FranceSaint Barthélemy
1,803
8,450
8
1,056
$312.650
$37,000
$39.081
NationBarbados
2,160
279,000
167
1,671
$5,496.300
$19,700
$32.912
Neth.Aruba
2,116
104,000
75
1,387
$2,267.200
$21,800
$30.229
FranceMartinique
2,032
401,000
436
920
$9,596.331
$23,931
$22.010
UKCayman Islands
1,735
47,000
100
470
$2,058.600
$43,800
$20.586
NationTrinidad and Tobago
2,290
1,333,000
1,980
673
$28,926.100
$21,700
$14.609
UKVirgin Islands (UK)
1,735
22,016
59
373
$847.616
$38,500
$14.366
FranceGuadeloupe
1,930
408,000
629
649
$8,886.240
$21,780
$14.128
Port.Madeira
2,982
245,806
320
768
$4,424.508
$18,000
$13.827
USAVirgin Islands (US)
1,737
108,448
133
815
$1,572.496
$14,500
$11.823
Neth.Antilles
2,147
192,000
309
621
$3,072.000
$16,000
$9.942
NationAntigua and Barbuda
1,870
85,000
171
497
$926.500
$10,900
$5.418
NationSaint Kitts and Nevis
1,844
42,696
101
423
$350.107
$8,200
$3.466
NationSaint Lucia
2,075
165,000
238
693
$792.000
$4,800
$3.328
Port.Azores
2,262
243,018
911
267
$2,995.440
$12,326
$3.288
NationGrenada
2,190
106,000
133
797
$413.400
$3,900
$3.108
UKAnguilla
1,777
13,477
39
342
$118.598
$8,800
$3.010
NationSaint Vincent & Grenadines
2,125
120,000
150
800
$432.000
$3,600
$2.880
NationCape Verde
3,403
499,796
1,557
321
$3,498.572
$7,000
$2.247
UKTurks and Caicos Islands
1,489
21,746
161
135
$250.079
$11,500
$1.553
NationBahamas
1,350
331,000
5,382
62
$7,513.700
$22,700
$1.396
NationDominica
1,999
67,000
291
230
$254.600
$3,800
$0.875
UKMontserrat
1,894
5,900
39
151
$20.060
$3,400
$0.514
USANavassa Island
1,715
0
2
0
$0.000
$0
$0.000
FranceClipperton
3,216
0
9
0
$0.000
$0
$0.000


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burnthebeautiful

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Re: The Definitive "Free Island Project" Thread !!!
« Reply #19 on: May 02, 2008, 02:53:12 PM »

All of the European islands are automatically discluded as far as I'm concerned - it is impossible to achieve freedom within the European Union. To become a member of the European Union, the countries government has to agree to do all sorts of anti-freedom crap. Member states are forced to 'co-operate' and 'harmonize', which occasionally means abolishing laws and lowering taxes, but most of the time it means raising taxes and passing laws in order to become equally as tyrannical as the rest of the EU in order to 'harmonize'. I have no faith whatsoever that any EU-member state can become anything even approaching pro-freedom. There are things in the EU constituation that demands the countries not legalize drugs and so on. The only way for an island within the EU to become pro freedom is to leave the EU, and in order to do that you'd either have to convince the country the island belongs to to secede, or convince the countries government to let the island secede from the country, which isn't likely. Also the island should be an independent nation and not belong to another, much larger, country.

As for the island nations, I don't really know anything about any of them. I'm interested in looking into them.
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Blackie

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Re: The Definitive "Free Island Project" Thread !!!
« Reply #20 on: May 02, 2008, 03:10:21 PM »

it is impossible to achieve freedom within the European Union.
I think you can achieve freedom just about anywhere.
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Taors

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Re: The Definitive "Free Island Project" Thread !!!
« Reply #21 on: May 02, 2008, 06:55:56 PM »

it is impossible to achieve freedom within the European Union.
I think you can achieve freedom just about anywhere.

Agreed.
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SnowDog

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Re: The Definitive "Free Island Project" Thread !!!
« Reply #22 on: May 02, 2008, 08:08:16 PM »

You left out Britain's Pitcairn island. Only something like 38 people live on the island, which includes 3 uninhabited islands, down from about 250 in the 1930s. The other thing interesting about the island is that the UK is looking to divest itself from managing the island. If the people on the island wanted independence, Britain would probably grant it. If anyone were really serious about starting a new free land by dominating the population, this would be an ideal consideration. Most people looking for a freedom movement which would work, seem to back away from this island, and I think it's because they're never really serious about the idea.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pitcairn_Islands

http://www.government.pn/
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Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith)

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Re: The Definitive "Free Island Project" Thread !!!
« Reply #23 on: May 02, 2008, 11:11:59 PM »

I voted US Virgin Islands because my friends recently got back from a trip there and they said it was awesome, but then I got more realistic and thought about how the UK's empire is receding and that it would be more realistic to attain secession from the British than from the USA.
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Alex Libman

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Re: The Definitive "Free Island Project" Thread !!!
« Reply #24 on: May 03, 2008, 01:30:58 AM »

You left out Britain's Pitcairn island.

Yeah, the reason that I did is because it's 6000 miles from New Hampshire, but that's a straight line.  Getting there is a bigger pain than I want to think about...  Getting to Tahiti alone takes at least 2-3 days by plane with all the transfers (which would still be the case even if you didn't have to go through New Zealand) and costs thousands!  And then, according to Wikipedia:

Quote
To get to Pitcairn it is necessary to fly to Tahiti, then Mangareva, then embark on a further 30-hour boat ride. There is one boat every several months. Alternately, passage can be obtained aboard a few freighters out of New Zealand - it is a seven-day trip via freighter. Leaving the island is hit-and-miss; one leaves when transportation happens by, not necessarily when one wishes to go.

And, remember, if you want something shipped to you from the outside world, that package would have to make the same costly trip!  Need a dentist?  Tough luck, you just missed him, the dentist stops by in April.  Etc.  What kind of life is that?

So let's stick to the 3,500 mile limit, some place people can fly (or even sail) to from NH with every reasonable convenience.  Flying / boating between Caribbean islands is far, far cheaper and less dangerous than through open Pacific.  It only takes 3-5 hours to fly on a full-sized passenger plane from Boston to Bahamas, Puerto Rico, or Trinidad, and then you can hire smaller planes / boats to take you where you need to go and get there in less than one day total.

The vast majority of would-be Free Islanders wouldn't be looking for a totally inaccessible place to hide from the world (and, trust me, the U.S. Navy can get to any place on earth pretty darn fast).  They'd be looking for a smaller and warmer alternative to New Hampshire, perhaps some place where they can vacation before they are ready to move there permanently.  And the island(s) should be big enough to comfortably settle 50,000 people or more - seems very high, I know, but the FSP is working with seven-digit populations in NH.

If you want a perfect place to hide, save up money and wait a few decades for the "Free Space-station Project".  ;)

If you want a more realistic short-term scenario than the FSP, which would also complement it through mutual cooperation, I can think of nothing better than a Free Island Project due south of NH.  Skiing in the FSP, surfing in the FIP - what could possibly be better?!  8)
« Last Edit: May 03, 2008, 01:48:20 AM by Alex Libman »
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Alex Libman

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Re: The Definitive "Free Island Project" Thread !!!
« Reply #25 on: May 03, 2008, 03:07:23 AM »

... I got more realistic and thought about how the UK's empire is receding and that it would be more realistic to attain secession from the British than from the USA.

That's probably the first question we'll need to ask ourselves, which political migration scenario is more realistic:

(1)  "Taking over", or rather "politically influencing" an American territory like the U.S. Virgin Islands in pretty much the same way the Free State Project is hoping to do with New Hampshire.  A major advantage here is that the two can work together to lobby the U.S. Federal Government for greater independence, and there are no Commonwealth, CariCom (yet), or UN hoops to jump through.  A disadvantage is that it's pulling all our eggs in one basket.

(2)  Doing the same to a foreign (most likely British) dependency by moving in and, even more importantly, using our dollars to encourage the locals to call for independence.  A similar scenario we're not discussing at this time is taking over (or buying) island(s) that are a dependency of a Latin American country.  The advantage of this scenario is that there are as many possibilities as there are suitable islands in the sea.  The disadvantage is that dealing with a government would be very costly, most larger islands are already populated, and getting the locals to come on board would still be as difficult as in the 3rd scenario.

(3)  Taking a small island nation that's already sovereign and pulling it toward a libertarian form of government.  This feels like we're starting a huge leap ahead of scenarios 1 and 2, but the choices of sovereign nations this could work with is rather limited, and in many those cases the locals depend on welfare from tourism industry taxation.

I think we should further research scenario #3 first, because it doesn't depend on the unpredictable whim of a large mainland government.

Take, for example, the nation of Dominica (not to be confused with the much-larger Dominican Republic), the smallest sovereign economy on our list with population of 71,727 people at around $6,520 per-capita GDP - still far to large to be effectively influenced from outside.  (Those numbers came from Wikipedia, while the numbers in the above table came from CIA fact book and are probably older.)  The populace almost entirely consists of descendants of African slaves with a couple thousand pre-Columbian natives.  And Dominica has recently joined the "Bolivarian Alternative for the Americas", which may or may not mean the locals are as socialist as the fellow members Cuba and Venezuela, but there's a good chance those scumbags would pump in money to protect Dominica from "evil capitalist carpetbaggers" like us.

Barbados has the freest economy of the sovereign nations on the list (or at least among those that were big enough to be included in a world-wide study).  The only tax seems to be a 15% sales (VAT) tax, but many things are tax-exempt or have a lower rate.  All this is meaningless, of course, unless you can get a citizenship there, which currently requires seven years of residence there.  Etc.

Someone should do a feasibility study on the U.S. Virgin Islands (the only option for scenario 1 really) and the 10 sovereign nations on that list (scenario 3).  If there are realistic possibilities - great, scenario 2 isn't even worth looking into.  If all of them are a dead end, scenario 2 is all we'll have left.
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mikehz

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Re: The Definitive "Free Island Project" Thread !!!
« Reply #26 on: May 03, 2008, 11:07:58 AM »

Small islands are available for sale all over the world. Once bought, condos could be built and timeshares sold to libertarians who, as in Atlas Shrugged, could live at least part of their time in freedom. Some might choose to move their permanently. You could have dual citizenship. Retirement condos could be sold so that you can at least hope to spend some of your life living in freedom.

At first, much of the funding would have to come from volunteers who want to see a libertarian society established. As time passes, an increasing amount would derive from rents and sales, along with services provided on the island. With no government economic restrictions, a thriving free market would ensure future economic prosperity.

Once the population is large enough, a vote is held for independence.

I think the idea has merit. The philosophy needs a test case; an example one can point to and say, "See? libertarianism DOES work!" One of the biggest obstacles for the average person is the objection that "libertarianism hasn't been tried anywhere before."
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Alex Libman

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Re: The Definitive "Free Island Project" Thread !!!
« Reply #27 on: May 03, 2008, 11:52:17 AM »

Exactly.

But just buying an island wouldn't make it a sovereign nation, independent of other nations' laws and taxation.  A special arrangement could be made, where the nation selling the island agrees not to exempt this island from those things.  Most nations won't do that, but a small archipelago nation with more islands than money might.  Of course having a sovereign libertarian nation of our own would be the best thing.
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mikehz

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Re: The Definitive "Free Island Project" Thread !!!
« Reply #28 on: May 03, 2008, 12:19:53 PM »

Once the occupants vote for independence, they cut ties with the illegal claimants of the land. The Untied States and other nations are forever tauting the right of self-determination.

However, one can expect the illegal authorities to attempt to exert authority over the newly independent state. This is what happened with the short lived Republic of Minerva, when a group of libertarians occupied unclaimed land in the South Pacific. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Minerva Tonga attacked and quickly occupied the new nation. The mistake of the founders of the new country was in not recognizing the need for defense. In the real world, you are sovereign only of what you can actually defend.

This fact was recognized by Paddy Roy Bates when he founded Sealand. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Sealand He ensured sovereignty by mounting a naval gun on the newly created country. He has also had to defend his nation several times against hostile takeovers.

To ensure freedom and independence, one has to be willing to fight for one's rights.
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jimmed

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Re: The Definitive "Free Island Project" Thread !!!
« Reply #29 on: May 03, 2008, 01:14:07 PM »

To ensure freedom and independence, one has to be willing to fight for one's rights.

Which pretty much means posessing a nuclear weapon.
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