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Author Topic: The Alliance of the Libertarian Left  (Read 15178 times)

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wtfk

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Re: The Alliance of the Libertarian Left
« Reply #15 on: March 22, 2007, 05:27:02 PM »

I've seen the term "left libertarian" and read about the argued existence of it, and it baffles me.  The assertion that there is such a thing seems to imply that other libertarians are on the "right" which is another well-known and absurd myth which has been used by politicians to sweep our views from the ideological center of politics (see the "Nolan Chart.")

I agree with cyro that libertarianism is, by nature, neither left nor right.  The terms left and right have been marginalized to the extent that they're only good for starting fights anyway.  It's much better to say what you mean than to get caught using the term left or right in the context of liberty (though it still seems quite common to associate the left with collectivism and to associate the right with fascism, we'd probably be best off avoiding the terms.)

Nevertheless, if it works for you...  :roll:
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Quexalcote

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Re: The Alliance of the Libertarian Left
« Reply #16 on: March 22, 2007, 05:37:02 PM »

I don't think you've posted any diatribes, but searching for "BenTucker" to understand good ways to piss us off (and avoid them) might be a good idea. Welcome to the BBS, as long as you do not always harp on your subject of choice.

Exactly. Just hang out, get to know folks, figure out the mood of the place. You know, standard good-manners stuff. We've had a few folks show up with schemes to hijack 'libertarianism' with various collectivist (usually called 'common') ideas.
I was merely trying to show you where a lot of ground was covered, then beat to death, so that you may be better able to formulate your posts accordingly.
No skin off my nose, though.

I apologize if I've ruffled anyone's feathers. I'm not really up on the proper etiquette in forums like this. I assure you I have no intention of hijacking anything, least of all with collectivist ideas. 
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wtfk

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Re: The Alliance of the Libertarian Left
« Reply #17 on: March 22, 2007, 05:40:07 PM »

I don't think you've posted any diatribes, but searching for "BenTucker" to understand good ways to piss us off (and avoid them) might be a good idea. Welcome to the BBS, as long as you do not always harp on your subject of choice.

Exactly. Just hang out, get to know folks, figure out the mood of the place. You know, standard good-manners stuff. We've had a few folks show up with schemes to hijack 'libertarianism' with various collectivist (usually called 'common') ideas.
I was merely trying to show you where a lot of ground was covered, then beat to death, so that you may be better able to formulate your posts accordingly.
No skin off my nose, though.

I apologize if I've ruffled anyone's feathers. I'm not really up on the proper etiquette in forums like this. I assure you I have no intention of hijacking anything, least of all with collectivist ideas. 

I don't see how you have.  As many others, you're probably bound to be simply shocked and sometimes offended by the frankness with which most express themselves around here.
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velojym

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Re: The Alliance of the Libertarian Left
« Reply #18 on: March 22, 2007, 05:53:25 PM »

I don't think you've posted any diatribes, but searching for "BenTucker" to understand good ways to piss us off (and avoid them) might be a good idea. Welcome to the BBS, as long as you do not always harp on your subject of choice.

Exactly. Just hang out, get to know folks, figure out the mood of the place. You know, standard good-manners stuff. We've had a few folks show up with schemes to hijack 'libertarianism' with various collectivist (usually called 'common') ideas.
I was merely trying to show you where a lot of ground was covered, then beat to death, so that you may be better able to formulate your posts accordingly.
No skin off my nose, though.

I apologize if I've ruffled anyone's feathers. I'm not really up on the proper etiquette in forums like this. I assure you I have no intention of hijacking anything, least of all with collectivist ideas. 

Not ruffled at all, and thanks for understanding. "Proper" etiquette isn't followed as often as some like, but it is possible to advance ideas without starting flamewars. The Ben Tucker threads are offered more as a 'what not to do', and you may also want to check out some of the 9/11 truth threads to see where some folks have shot themselves in the foot by being complete asses.
Again, welcome. I hope you enjoy this place as much as I do.
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We are fast approaching the stage of the ultimate inversion: the stage where the government is free to do anything it pleases, while the citizens may act only by permission; which is the stage of the darkest periods of human history, the stage of rule by brute force.
-Ayn Rand

YixilTesiphon

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Re: The Alliance of the Libertarian Left
« Reply #19 on: March 22, 2007, 07:07:07 PM »

Heh, "proper etiquette". Not much of that to be found.
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And their kids were hippie chicks - all hypocrites.

Jason Orr

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Re: The Alliance of the Libertarian Left
« Reply #20 on: March 23, 2007, 02:16:08 PM »

Quexalcote,

What is the difference between "left" libertarianism and any other varieties of libertarianism?
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“The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money”

--Alexis de Tocqueville

Quexalcote

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Re: The Alliance of the Libertarian Left
« Reply #21 on: March 23, 2007, 04:00:51 PM »

Quexalcote,

What is the difference between "left" libertarianism and any other varieties of libertarianism?

There seems to be a mainstream libertarianism which - to simplify a bit grossly, but not inaccurately I think-  hews to an Ayn Rand via John Stossel party line that rejects many concerns traditionally seen as those of the liberal left - sexism, worker exploitation,health care, etc., and extols a system of capitalism that is dependent on the state for its maintenance.   Left libertarians consider many of the complaints of the left (although rarely if ever the solutions offered) as legitimate, and rejects the system of privileges granted by the state which is called capitalism (although not necessarily capitalism itself) and the idea that a free market necessarily equates to capitalism.

I have a feeling this will not clear up matters for most who read it, so I would recommend to anyone interested further to read some of the essays on the ALL home page. 
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Jason Orr

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Re: The Alliance of the Libertarian Left
« Reply #22 on: March 23, 2007, 08:12:28 PM »

From what I gather, the "libertarian left" is nothing more than a group of libertarians who focus on issues traditionally taken up by the political left.  It isn't an ideological opposition but more a different attitude which leads this breed of libertarians to focus on another set of issues.  If this is a case, then I have nothing but sympathy for you.  Education especially is one of the most important issues with respect to freeing ourselves from state power.  I support any and all pathways to diminish state power, whether you talk more about monetary system or environmentalism.
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“The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money”

--Alexis de Tocqueville

cerpntaxt

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Re: The Alliance of the Libertarian Left
« Reply #23 on: March 23, 2007, 08:24:56 PM »

From what I gather, the "libertarian left" is nothing more than a group of libertarians who focus on issues traditionally taken up by the political left.  It isn't an ideological opposition but more a different attitude which leads this breed of libertarians to focus on another set of issues.  If this is a case, then I have nothing but sympathy for you.  Education especially is one of the most important issues with respect to freeing ourselves from state power.  I support any and all pathways to diminish state power, whether you talk more about monetary system or environmentalism.
Yes you are correct
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ladyattis

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Re: The Alliance of the Libertarian Left
« Reply #24 on: March 24, 2007, 12:19:09 AM »

Me and Jason Orr have more in common philosophically than this fruitcake nub that posted the thread.

Remember kiddies. Check your premises when you find yourself facing a contradiction, you'll find one of those premises is wrong. :3

-- Bridget is evil. >:3
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theodorelogan

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Re: The Alliance of the Libertarian Left
« Reply #25 on: April 10, 2007, 03:16:36 AM »

Quote
The Alliance of the Libertarian Left is a multi-tendency coalition of mutualists, agorists,
voluntaryists, geolibertarians, left-Rothbardians, green libertarians, dialectical anarchists,
radical minarchists, and others on the libertarian left, united by an opposition to statism,
militarism, and the prevailing corporatist capitalism falsely called a free market, as well as
by an emphasis on education, direct action, and building alternative institutions, rather
than on electoral politics, as our chief strategy for achieving liberation.

Wow, I don't get the knee jerk reaction in this thread.  You are upset by the word "left"?

Yeah, I agree that freedom is not a spectrum either.  But it doesn't seem like these people have much to disagree with most people on this board....does it?

In fact, it is through this website that I recently discovered agorism a few weeks ago, which I have to say makes a ton of sense to me.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2007, 03:18:17 AM by Pres. of Vincentia »
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Go figure...

RAD!

Alex Libman

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Re: The Alliance of the Libertarian Left
« Reply #26 on: April 10, 2007, 03:37:03 AM »

I've always been closer to the left wing than the right.  Good left-wingers serve the purpose of filling that unfortunate gap between a society's charitable generosity and what is necessary to keep the plebs from revolting, as they have so dangerously done in other countries, when they can't find a job to feed their children.  A good left-winger would rather work for a secular NGO, and when the aforementioned gap disappears due to growing productivity, they will pose no problem for a free society.
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wtfk

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Re: The Alliance of the Libertarian Left
« Reply #27 on: April 11, 2007, 08:32:26 PM »

I'm sensing a "left is welfare," "right is warfare" mindset.  The whole point behind the exception to the notion of left and right is that libertarianism is neither, if in fact it is the state conducting the welfare or the warfare.  Libertarianism is principled, and to attach left or right to it as a qualifier is to make it unprincipled.

Thus, I have no problem with guns in the hand of a libertarian, nor charity run by a libertarian, as I am a libertarian, and a libertarian would not invoke state power in these areas.  He would use the gun for defense, and he would use charity for personally helping others.  He would not use the gun to fight a foreign war, supported by taxation, nor would he use the welfare as a reason to take money, by force, from one group to give to another.  The current "mainstream" government would do, and does, both.
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cerpntaxt

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Re: The Alliance of the Libertarian Left
« Reply #28 on: April 11, 2007, 10:59:16 PM »

Dude, you don't fucking get it. It's not left and right like you're thinking :roll:
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Taors

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Re: The Alliance of the Libertarian Left
« Reply #29 on: April 11, 2007, 11:09:36 PM »

It's stupid, either way.
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