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Free Talk Live => General => Topic started by: Pizzly on April 07, 2011, 02:32:40 AM

Title: Sweatshop labor, compatible with liberty?
Post by: Pizzly on April 07, 2011, 02:32:40 AM
Some recent articles from the Center for a Stateless Society have made the attempt to show how sweatshop labor is incompatable with liberty. I have to disagree.

Both articles attempt to use the concept of "wage slavery," and compare workers making the voluntary decision to work a shitty job over some other alternatives. The alternatives are almost always worse, and if it is a voluntary decision, must be worse. Not only does sweatshop labor provide the workers with a better alternative, usually healthier and less intensive labor, it tends to provide the workers with additional time, additional capital, and skills. There also exists an incentive for a capital owner to provide better working conditions, dangerous and unhealthy working conditions is a threat to the owners future production.

I am of the opinion a peaceful society must accept sweatshop labor, voluntary slavery, and other disgusting, but voluntary, actions.

http://c4ss.org/content/6454 (http://c4ss.org/content/6454)

http://c4ss.org/content/6489 (http://c4ss.org/content/6489)
Title: Re: Sweatshop labor, compatible with liberty?
Post by: Alex Libman on April 07, 2011, 10:33:53 AM
I agree 100%, but I'm not one to dwell on the obvious.  What I'm more interested in is distancing myself from those socialists, even if it means dropping terms like "libertarian" or "anarcho-" and emphasizing "capitalism".

What's most interesting is that the duration of the "sweatshop phase" an ancient society needs to go through to bootstrap its economy and catch up to the rest of civilization is shrinking rapidly.  In the first countries of the Industrial Revolution (BeNeLux, Scandinavia, and England), it took generations for people to work out of poverty.  Today I meet freelance IT people (and not just in mindless data entry jobs, but top-notch coders and my direct competitors) who were born into subsistence agriculture, moved to a "sweat shop" factory town as teens, but were able to access a computer and teach themselves to make money with it before they were 20.  The price of education is falling rapidly, as its efficiency rises.  Projects like the Khan Academy (http://www.khanacademy.org/), along with micro-credit, are accomplishing great things in lifting people out of poverty ever-faster, while sweatshop-busting socialist governments only stand in the way!
Title: Re: Sweatshop labor, compatible with liberty?
Post by: Fred on April 07, 2011, 10:37:08 AM
hoo yah
Title: Re: Sweatshop labor, compatible with liberty?
Post by: LTKoblinsky on April 07, 2011, 11:03:35 AM
Quote
I agree 100%, but I'm not one to dwell on the obvious.  What I'm more interested in is distancing myself from those socialists, even if it means dropping terms like "libertarian" or "anarcho-" and emphasizing "capitalism".


This. For every few crazy, nutter statements Libby makes, he puts something like this up.
Title: Re: Sweatshop labor, compatible with liberty?
Post by: Alex Libman on April 07, 2011, 11:37:32 AM
Oops, my bad...  Every once in a while, I forget which forum I am on.   :lol:
Title: Re: Sweatshop labor, compatible with liberty?
Post by: Andy on April 07, 2011, 11:53:03 AM
I theory "sweat shops" might arise in a free market, certainly there would be places in which the pay was considerably lower than that for western factory workers. I don't necessarily think that low pay, even very low pay, deserves a pejorative term like "sweat shop." That requires something more, excessively dangerous conditions, long hours, an element of overt force.

With regard to what has actually happend though.

I agree with the guy, with some reservations.

If both your better and worse alternatives have been made worse by someones aggression, then you aren't making a free choice, even if the party offering you that choice is not the same one who harmed you. Which in the real world is a fairly complicated question.

Title: Re: Sweatshop labor, compatible with liberty?
Post by: mikehz on April 07, 2011, 01:37:08 PM
There were sweat shops in the US early in the 20th Century. Mainly, European immigrants worked in them. These people worked long hours for short pay. But, they eagerly took the jobs, since bad as they were, they were better than anything back home. "Oh, boy--I can slave all day for a dollar. I don't have to starve!" These people had no education and little skill. The only marketable quality they possessed was a willingness to work hard.

Their children did better than the parents, and the grandchildren hardly knew what poverty was.

In a perfect world, there'd be instant wealth for everyone. In reality, wealth must be build over time, and with great effort.
Title: Re: Sweatshop labor, compatible with liberty?
Post by: velojym on April 07, 2011, 02:52:23 PM
In a free market, what is known as a "sweat shop" will merely be a place for otherwise unproductive people to scrape by until they decide for themselves to improve their lot.
There'll always be slackers, and the market, being neither good nor bad, will make a place for 'em. In the Nanny State, they can sit at home and watch Oprah, while stealing from their neighbors by proxy.
Title: Re: Sweatshop labor, compatible with liberty?
Post by: alaric89 on April 07, 2011, 06:36:13 PM
I always found hard working women in sweat shops sexy as hell.
Hell of a lot sexier then fat welfare leaches that's for sure.
Title: Re: Sweatshop labor, compatible with liberty?
Post by: velojym on April 07, 2011, 07:32:21 PM
I always found hard working women in sweat shops sexy as hell.
Hell of a lot sexier then fat welfare leaches that's for sure.

When I was a teen, I delivered pizza for my Dad's restaurant. One of our regular customers was a morbidly obese woman who didn't seem to ever bathe or change her mumu. I'd usually deliver a couple large pizzas, a sandwich or three, and plenty of soda. Every time, she asked me if I'd take her food stamps. When I told her no, she'd offer .50 on the dollar for 'em. Ha!
She had four skinny kids in the house (which was filthy, dog shit on the carpet, etc.) who would sometimes ask for a bite of her food. Nope, they had some old bread and bologna on the kitchen table. This was Momma's food.

Later, I found that she was a State approved foster parent, and the kids were in her care via the state of NM. I had to wonder whether they were really better off.

So, back to the point... yeah, sweatshop babes would be a HELL of a lot hotter than this crusty whale.
Title: Re: Sweatshop labor, compatible with liberty?
Post by: alaric89 on April 08, 2011, 03:03:22 AM
Jesus I nail in a point, and you hammer it through the table. 8)
Title: Re: Sweatshop labor, compatible with liberty?
Post by: velojym on April 10, 2011, 10:07:25 PM
Oh, my filter is malfunctioning.

I apologize for any inconvenience... not really, I like to prattle.
 8)
Title: Re: Sweatshop labor, compatible with liberty?
Post by: Bill Brasky on April 10, 2011, 10:50:26 PM
Sweatshops are not the problem.  People get used to squalid conditions and dangerous practices. 

The problem is the people who run the sweatshops know how to take advantage of desperate people, with limited educations and few options.  These situations normally do not improve over time, but rather deteriorate. 

Without establishing certain limitations and minimums, the owners will not impose them upon themselves.  They have no incentive to establish good community relations, unless they actually care about the opinion of the community.  And in my experience, most do not. 

So, if you want to remain on the payroll, you'll do what they say, for the pay they offer, and for the hours they dictate.  The employees themselves ultimately dictate what they'll tolerate.  The employer can easily observe it, by the simple fact if his place is running, or standing idle, unstaffed. 

And I can tell you one thing, for certain.  In very rural areas where opportunity is limited, or in urban areas where the labor pool is notably larger than job availability, those places will NOT be standing idle. 

Now...  you may be, at this point in your life, in an advantageous situation.  You may have the skills to shop around, or the bankroll to relocate.  But there are plenty of others who do not have those resources.  And in time, depending on the winds of fate (or however you'd like to phrase it) your situation may change.  So be careful what you condone, because you may one day receive it in spades. 
Title: Re: Sweatshop labor, compatible with liberty?
Post by: velojym on April 12, 2011, 04:14:26 PM
It's also handy to have political connections, who can craft regulations with an eye toward preventing others from entering the industry.
Others who might... Gubmint Forbid!... treat their employees well with the idea that maybe they'd be more productive that way.
Title: Re: Sweatshop labor, compatible with liberty?
Post by: Bill Brasky on April 12, 2011, 08:38:12 PM
It's also handy to have political connections, who can craft regulations with an eye toward preventing others from entering the industry.
Others who might... Gubmint Forbid!... treat their employees well with the idea that maybe they'd be more productive that way.


I think you'll find that this practice is more of a third-world junta situation, where sweatshop industry would be directly tied to the periphery of the political elite - and thereby exist under their protection.    

In first-world countries, sweatshop-style entrepreneurship is typically on the opposite end of the spectrum of political correctness, and political connection.  Especially at the level where politicians can "craft regulations" to make the environment favorable for their cronies.  Those "sweatshop" owners are generally viewed as unsavory in the business world, and politicians tend to crony with big business.  Political nepotism and cronyism at the local level is much more involved with municipal contracts and getting each other jobs.  

In local town politics, maybe you'll see shades of favoritism.  But a guy who wants to open a widget factory can do it just about anywhere he wants, and the local board is typically happy to have any employment within its geographic footprint at all.  

And besides - lets really think about it here.  This is a big country.  Nobody opens a sparkplug factory a mile down the road from another sparkplug factory.  So, you apparently have a different understanding of the concepts of "competition" than I do.  Competition is not where the item is manufactured, its origin is entirely irrelevant.  Competition takes place on the store shelves, quality, popularity, brand loyalty, and availability.  

Within that competition, overhead is a major part of the equation, when determining profit.  So it stands to reason, competing brands of similar quality will have similar business models, production and distribution.  If the basic quality is there, largely provided by mechanical accuracy, the profitable advantage goes to the least overhead that can still maintain production requirements.  

--

None of that is to say an individual employer will not have a conscience.  He may choose to provide a more reasonable living wage, to ease his own conscience.  But thats a personal reason, not a business reason.  

Title: Re: Sweatshop labor, compatible with liberty?
Post by: Level 20 Anklebiter on April 14, 2011, 10:37:43 PM
If we're talking about modern sweatshops which are enforced by state law and treaty (where local govts basically don't allow laborers to unionize or collectively bargain), then yes it's bad for liberty. Like or not, if the market forces on the price of labor go one way only (where the employer gets to set a price, but the employee has no right to set his/her), then it's not a free market.
Title: Re: Sweatshop labor, compatible with liberty?
Post by: LTKoblinsky on April 15, 2011, 02:13:22 AM
If we're talking about modern sweatshops which are enforced by state law and treaty (where local govts basically don't allow laborers to unionize or collectively bargain), then yes it's bad for liberty. Like or not, if the market forces on the price of labor go one way only (where the employer gets to set a price, but the employee has no right to set his/her), then it's not a free market.

There are a lot more pro-union laws in the US than anti union laws. Besides, saying, "fuck you, I'm out." is negotiating your price. Now, you may not be in a good position to quit, but consequences are part of any choice or freedom.
Title: Re: Sweatshop labor, compatible with liberty?
Post by: Turd Ferguson on April 15, 2011, 02:21:10 AM

 Besides, saying, "fuck you, I'm out." is negotiating your price. Now, you may not be in a good position to quit, but consequences are part of any choice or freedom.

This,

Unless you're a spineless jellyfish that needs an "official club" to charge you fees for something you and your co-workers can easily do on your own, especially with the thousands of networking options available today.
Title: Re: Sweatshop labor, compatible with liberty?
Post by: Andy on April 15, 2011, 02:35:28 AM
If we're talking about modern sweatshops which are enforced by state law and treaty (where local govts basically don't allow laborers to unionize or collectively bargain), then yes it's bad for liberty. Like or not, if the market forces on the price of labor go one way only (where the employer gets to set a price, but the employee has no right to set his/her), then it's not a free market.

There are a lot more pro-union laws in the US than anti union laws. Besides, saying, "fuck you, I'm out." is negotiating your price. Now, you may not be in a good position to quit, but consequences are part of any choice or freedom.

How did this conversation get to be about the US?
Title: Re: Sweatshop labor, compatible with liberty?
Post by: Level 20 Anklebiter on April 15, 2011, 02:36:05 AM
If we're talking about modern sweatshops which are enforced by state law and treaty (where local govts basically don't allow laborers to unionize or collectively bargain), then yes it's bad for liberty. Like or not, if the market forces on the price of labor go one way only (where the employer gets to set a price, but the employee has no right to set his/her), then it's not a free market.

There are a lot more pro-union laws in the US than anti union laws. Besides, saying, "fuck you, I'm out." is negotiating your price. Now, you may not be in a good position to quit, but consequences are part of any choice or freedom.

When considering the loss of workers, in fact, many companies prefer to retain workers than lose them for the fact that it takes time to train new workers even for simple tasks (otherwise, they could use machines to do the same thing).
Title: Re: Sweatshop labor, compatible with liberty?
Post by: velojym on April 15, 2011, 06:24:25 PM
*sigh*

If working in a sweatshop is better, in your opinion, than your alternatives, then go for it and figure out a way to rise above it. Otherwise, don't even apply. Agreeing to work for someone, then forcing them to change the terms to suit you is no better than theft. If a company enjoys government protection, as a corporation, then that will naturally stifle potential competitors who may have offered a better deal for the work. There's more than one evil here, ya know.

A sweatshop in a free economy would likely produce lower quality goods, while incentivizing their best help to go out looking for better work. In this day and age, though, folks are too lazy, and would rather have a large organization with a lot of gun-toting goons force the employer to immolate himself on the altar of the proletariat.
Title: Re: Sweatshop labor, compatible with liberty?
Post by: Level 20 Anklebiter on April 15, 2011, 06:35:34 PM
In China, many sweatshops are Chinese created by small firms. In fact, many of the workers are family members, so these are sorta homegrown enterprises. The larger corporate operations in the Special Economic Zones pay more, have better benefits, and adhere to EU labor standards if they happen to be HQ'd in the EU (per EU law). It's quite interesting to see the contrast between large versus small firms in terms of menial labor and labor conditions in China as a test case.
Title: Re: Sweatshop labor, compatible with liberty?
Post by: LTKoblinsky on April 15, 2011, 06:48:27 PM
If we're talking about modern sweatshops which are enforced by state law and treaty (where local govts basically don't allow laborers to unionize or collectively bargain), then yes it's bad for liberty. Like or not, if the market forces on the price of labor go one way only (where the employer gets to set a price, but the employee has no right to set his/her), then it's not a free market.

There are a lot more pro-union laws in the US than anti union laws. Besides, saying, "fuck you, I'm out." is negotiating your price. Now, you may not be in a good position to quit, but consequences are part of any choice or freedom.

I added "in the US" just in case I was off point.  The rest of my post is still valid.
How did this conversation get to be about the US?