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Author Topic: So, in a society completely without government, what stops warlords?  (Read 23316 times)

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TimeLady Victorious

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Re: So, in a society completely without government, what stops warlords?
« Reply #30 on: December 15, 2009, 08:54:37 PM »


What you're doing is completely ignoring that conditions "here" with a powerful state might very well be better by any objective measure than "there" without a state. That's the only reason you can use the term "free-market paradise".


Then you're saying that conditions under a statist society are better than those in societies in anarchy, or as near to anarchy to make no difference?
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TimeLady Victorious

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Re: So, in a society completely without government, what stops warlords?
« Reply #31 on: December 15, 2009, 09:00:47 PM »

I'm talking about actual warlords, like say those from the Middle Ages or (literally) from the Warlord Era of China in the early 20th century.

We don't have warlords, in that sense, now. And those in control of the governments of the First World couldn't be called warlords anyway.

What is the difference, or to put it another way, why couldn't First World governments be called warlords according to your definition?

Already said above. First World governments generally have a civil authority that can be appealed to.


For claims against the warlord?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_immunity
Quote
Generally speaking it is the doctrine that the sovereign or state cannot commit a legal wrong and is immune from civil suit or criminal prosecution; hence the saying, the king (or queen) can do no wrong.

There's no god damn King in America.

But there is the doctrine of sovereign immunity. 

In the USA sovereign immunity only applies to the individual states, and not to the federal government, and not to individual people.

No, there are exceptions to sovereign immunity, but as a general rule the Fed Gov (like the states) is immune from claims and so are all its agents.

It still doesn't make the current government of the USA a warlord or warlord-esque state.

Once the State starts sticking people's heads on pikes, then I'll say it is.
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Diogenes The Cynic

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Re: So, in a society completely without government, what stops warlords?
« Reply #32 on: December 15, 2009, 10:43:55 PM »

Nothing. Warlords exist when the current government is too ineffective to deal with them. See Afghanistan. A look into Greek history shows us that every time governments became ineffective due to civil strife, or whatever, they ended up with tyrants, or draconian laws to deal with. So we can see that what works best is minimal government, but only to the point where it can ensure that it continues to exist.

Now what about the idea of corporate government? Its an idea many FTL'ers here masturbate to. The two examples I can think of are The Congo Free State, and these weren't very positive examples of such governance. People will argue that since they governed an area they were not from, they had no motivation to be good to people they weren't related to.

A corporation with a wide latitude of duties and powers, and the muscle to back up insubordinate locals doesn't strike me as being any different than a government.
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Rillion

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Re: So, in a society completely without government, what stops warlords?
« Reply #33 on: December 15, 2009, 10:52:07 PM »

Pretend that there is no official government.  Now choose your government:

1) The Mafia
2) A Mad Maxx-style industrial complex
3) Waterworld-style pirate conglomerates
4) Sons of Anarchy-style biker gangs
5) Deadwood-style saloon/whorehouse owners
6) The Taliban
7) etc.

The first thing that occurs to me, personally, is that none of these are particularly female-friendly. 
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eVaL

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Re: So, in a society completely without government, what stops warlords?
« Reply #34 on: December 15, 2009, 11:00:05 PM »

Pretend that there is no official government.  Now choose your government:

1) The Mafia
2) A Mad Maxx-style industrial complex
3) Waterworld-style pirate conglomerates
4) Sons of Anarchy-style biker gangs
5) Deadwood-style saloon/whorehouse owners
6) The Taliban
7) etc.

The first thing that occurs to me, personally, is that none of these are particularly female-friendly. 

8) Xena
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blackie

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Re: So, in a society completely without government, what stops warlords?
« Reply #35 on: December 15, 2009, 11:00:23 PM »

That is why you live in the middle of nowhere.
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TimeLady Victorious

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Re: So, in a society completely without government, what stops warlords?
« Reply #36 on: December 15, 2009, 11:13:20 PM »


It still doesn't make the current government of the USA a warlord or warlord-esque state.

Once the State starts sticking people's heads on pikes, then I'll say it is.

The USA is a first world country that kills people.  The court decisions upholding the death penalty even admit that the death penalty is supposed to be a deterrent for the rest of the people who might be considering the doing the same thing that the dead person did.

I'm just trying to figure out what exactly it is that differentiates a warlord state from a country like america.

In America there is a civil administration.

Then again, I'm someone who sees nothing wrong at all with the death penalty, and I wish it was used more often.

If you can't see the difference between America and a region like Somalia, or like I said, the warlord period of post-Imperial China, I honestly don't think you know what a warlord state IS.
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Moebius Tripp

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Re: So, in a society completely without government, what stops warlords?
« Reply #37 on: December 16, 2009, 02:23:05 AM »

Genghis had a civil administration.
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TimeLady Victorious

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Re: So, in a society completely without government, what stops warlords?
« Reply #38 on: December 16, 2009, 02:25:19 AM »

Genghis had a civil administration.

America can't be compared in any way to the Mongol Hordes.
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Moebius Tripp

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Re: So, in a society completely without government, what stops warlords?
« Reply #39 on: December 16, 2009, 08:15:08 AM »

Genghis had a civil administration.

America can't be compared in any way to the Mongol Hordes.

They (Mongols) conquered much of the known world.  They allowed freedom of religion.  They protected the trade routes.  They upheld contracts through rule of law.  All you had to do was submit, not talk bad about your overseers, and pay your tribute.  They had superior military tactics, and the strongest military in the world.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2009, 08:19:34 AM by Moebius Tripp »
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Riddler

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Re: So, in a society completely without government, what stops warlords?
« Reply #40 on: December 16, 2009, 11:21:43 AM »

That is why you live in the middle of nowhere.


the mad maxxers & sons will find you
and take yer shit
after they disembowel you, or make you their bitch
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blackie

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Re: So, in a society completely without government, what stops warlords?
« Reply #41 on: December 16, 2009, 11:31:27 AM »

That is why you live in the middle of nowhere.


the mad maxxers & sons will find you
and take yer shit
after they disembowel you, or make you their bitch
Whever, Nostradamus.

It you make your prediction into a quatrain, maybe I would believe you.
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TimeLady Victorious

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Re: So, in a society completely without government, what stops warlords?
« Reply #42 on: December 16, 2009, 07:10:53 PM »

Genghis had a civil administration.

America can't be compared in any way to the Mongol Hordes.

They (Mongols) conquered much of the known world.  They allowed freedom of religion.  They protected the trade routes.  They upheld contracts through rule of law.  All you had to do was submit, not talk bad about your overseers, and pay your tribute.  They had superior military tactics, and the strongest military in the world.

Except here in the USA you can talk bad about your overseers, and you're not going to get your head cut off for doing so.

The USA is not the Mongol Horde.
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digitalfour

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Re: So, in a society completely without government, what stops warlords?
« Reply #43 on: December 16, 2009, 07:14:59 PM »

The question in the topic is a little different from the question in the post. Government is an idea, and will not disappear overnight.

In a society without government, people would stop warlords.

What is so magical about government that private people seeking a profit can't solve the problem?
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TimeLady Victorious

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Re: So, in a society completely without government, what stops warlords?
« Reply #44 on: December 16, 2009, 07:16:36 PM »

The question in the topic is a little different from the question in the post. Government is an idea, and will not disappear overnight.

In a society without government, people would stop warlords.

What is so magical about government that private people seeking a profit can't solve the problem?

But if that happens, what differentiates bands of people from a government? Because then it would be the same thing.
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