The Free Talk Live BBS
Free Talk Live => General => Topic started by: LTKoblinsky on May 04, 2011, 09:51:23 AM
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I just realized a side effect of the state doing a shitty (good at indoctrination?) job of educating children. You hear a lot of percentages when people discuss education quality. 84% of American kids can't read. 9 of 10 can't point out Iraq, Afghanistan, and Pakistan on a map, blah blah blah. While some children can't read and some kids don't know geography or math, there are some that can and are. Yet, all Americans get treated as if they're equally stupid by most statists of all stripes, 'intellectuals', policy makers, and foreigners. This means that if I were looking for a job at an international firm and was competing with a Swiss guy, a Frenchman, and a Chinese immigrant, I would probably start the running dead last in consideration, all else equal.
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I just realized a side effect of the state doing a shitty (good at indoctrination?) job of educating children. You hear a lot of percentages when people discuss education quality. 84% of American kids can't read. 9 of 10 can't point out Iraq, Afghanistan, and Pakistan on a map, blah blah blah. While some children can't read and some kids don't know geography or math, there are some that can and are. Yet, all Americans get treated as if they're equally stupid by most statists of all stripes, 'intellectuals', policy makers, and foreigners. This means that if I were looking for a job at an international firm and was competing with a Swiss guy, a Frenchman, and a Chinese immigrant, I would probably start the running dead last in consideration, all else equal.
I think you're right, and for good reason.
In the past 20 or more years, kids coming out of government schools are for the most part pretty ignorant. This of course is not their fault, but it is what it is. Not only that, but we have a culture of laziness and dependence. Kids don't want to work because their parents have pampered them with materialism and money.
If I was in the position of hiring as you described it, I would also put an American kid last. This does NOT mean that there aren't good, devoted, smart, hardworking kids around, because I know some. But overall, it ain't what it used to be.
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This is why we must evict all non-whites from the US, to make it FAIR again, so we can get our bloodlines strengthened again and be a great country again like we used to be in the good old days.
Come on pussies, you wanna keep yer jerbs? Better get with the program.
(http://www.wood-alaska.com/images/uwss.jpg)
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3138/2734583516_a6109715f4.jpg)
(http://greyerz.com/~nvg/skoj/get-a-brain-morans-go-usa.jpg)
(http://cdn.greenoptions.com/b/b4/265x265px-LS-american+pride+paint.jpg)
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Parents are to blame far more than public schools. And genetics too, which makes quickmike's post kinda true.
My son recently had his End of Grade tests done. He's in 4th grade and according to the tests he reads on a 10th grade level.
I'm a little skeptical of that score.. either something is really off on their scoring system, or someone from the same school system really failed all those 10th graders, or the system is doing something to tweak resulst to make it look like they're doing a super job. Dunno.. but I do know my son is really into reading and always has been. Might have something to do with his momma and I reading to him every night for the past 10 years too, and encouraging him to read whatever he wants on his own.
I've done the same thing with my daughter who is 4.. she's not reading on her own yet, but she's definitely interested. She knows all the letters & numbers up to 24 or so and lately has been making street signs out of popsicle sticks and construction paper. STOP signs always have the right letters but in the wrong spot.
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Parents are to blame far more than public schools. And genetics too, which makes quickmike's post kinda true.
My son recently had his End of Grade tests done. He's in 4th grade and according to the tests he reads on a 10th grade level.
I'm a little skeptical of that score.. either something is really off on their scoring system, or someone from the same school system really failed all those 10th graders, or the system is doing something to tweak resulst to make it look like they're doing a super job. Dunno.. but I do know my son is really into reading and always has been. Might have something to do with his momma and I reading to him every night for the past 10 years too, and encouraging him to read whatever he wants on his own.
I've done the same thing with my daughter who is 4.. she's not reading on her own yet, but she's definitely interested. She knows all the letters & numbers up to 24 or so and lately has been making street signs out of popsicle sticks and construction paper. STOP signs always have the right letters but in the wrong spot.
I think the genetical advantage is distinct in some individuals, but across a population, not so much. I mean, scores go up and down relative to other nations all the time. Parents are partly to blame. Schools are shit because the same children that fail at a gov't school can excel in charter or private schools.
On a side note: are you teaching Look Say (My Baby Can Read) or Phonetics (Hooked on Phonics)?
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Parents are to blame far more than public schools. And genetics too, which makes quickmike's post kinda true.
My son recently had his End of Grade tests done. He's in 4th grade and according to the tests he reads on a 10th grade level.
I'm a little skeptical of that score.. either something is really off on their scoring system, or someone from the same school system really failed all those 10th graders, or the system is doing something to tweak resulst to make it look like they're doing a super job. Dunno.. but I do know my son is really into reading and always has been. Might have something to do with his momma and I reading to him every night for the past 10 years too, and encouraging him to read whatever he wants on his own.
I've done the same thing with my daughter who is 4.. she's not reading on her own yet, but she's definitely interested. She knows all the letters & numbers up to 24 or so and lately has been making street signs out of popsicle sticks and construction paper. STOP signs always have the right letters but in the wrong spot.
HB I agree with you on most of what you're saying, but its definitely both the schools and the parents responsible.
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Parents are to blame far more than public schools. And genetics too, which makes quickmike's post kinda true.
Parents were taught in the public schools, so really you could blame just the public schools. Or blame it on rich dead guys who decided compulsory public funded schooling was a good idea so they could have more compliant factory workers. Or blame it on the parents who frankly don't give a crap and leave the responsibility of teaching their children anything to complete strangers.
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On a side note: are you teaching Look Say (My Baby Can Read) or Phonetics (Hooked on Phonics)?
Nothin' so fancy as that. I just tell the kid to pick a book and climb up next to me. I use my finger to trail along with the words as I read them. Pretty soon my daughter should start asking which letters make which words, and then she'll be set.
Just found this image of our latest favorite book, "A Cowboy's Secret Life" :
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_VX79afS5-cY/TEhH3xAocHI/AAAAAAAAA-8/wO1D4mkJzP4/s1600/cowboy6.jpg)
..I probably wouldn't draw as well as I do without reading one of the books from this series when I was a kid. Love these books.
Admiral- I don't blame the teachers for slacking, in the later years that is. Elementary school teachers should be totally into it but by the time the kids are in middle school.. the brats either want to be there or they don't. Once the bastards hit high school, none of them want to be there except for the good students.
Middle & high are about the time bad parents will stop interacting with their kids (because many of those parents are too busy acting like kids that age themselves). At least during the early years the bad parents can simply stick their kids in front of Big Bird all day where they'll at least learn to count a little.
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Parents are to blame far more than public schools. And genetics too, which makes quickmike's post kinda true.
Parents were taught in the public schools, so really you could blame just the public schools. Or blame it on rich dead guys who decided compulsory public funded schooling was a good idea so they could have more compliant factory workers. Or blame it on the parents who frankly don't give a crap and leave the responsibility of teaching their children anything to complete strangers.
Yeah, but I'm bettin' most of us here went through public schools. And we all turned ou... wait.
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Parents are to blame far more than public schools.
Yeah, cus the parents force their kids to go to public schools, so the parents should take the blame for sending their kids to public schools.
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Weak.
I "force" my son to go to avoid going to court with his mom since she doesn't want him to be home schooled. I'm not rolling in the dough so private school is out.
There's a limit to how effective this argument is, that "ya gotta do whatever you must to get yer kids outta public skoo!". Many working class people just don't have the means.
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Let's play the blame game.
Weak.
I "force" my son to go to avoid going to court with his mom since she doesn't want him to be home schooled.
Like I said, blame the parents. His mother is a parent too, right?
I'm not rolling in the dough so private school is out.
There's a limit to how effective this argument is, that "ya gotta do whatever you must to get yer kids outta public skoo!". Many working class people just don't have the means.
Weak.
There is a limit to how effective your "don't have the means" argument is when you take vacations to Disney world.
I'm not rolling in dough, so vacations to Disney are out for me and my kids.
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Brattzo. Brattzo. I like saying it.
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Weak.
I "force" my son to go to avoid going to court with his mom since she doesn't want him to be home schooled. I'm not rolling in the dough so private school is out.
There's a limit to how effective this argument is, that "ya gotta do whatever you must to get yer kids outta public skoo!". Many working class people just don't have the means.
Right, you choose public education over homeschooling. You choose to live where you live and what sacrifices you make financially..you are choosing to send your kids to public school. It's very easy to applaud yourself for good parenting when your kid happens to not be one of the ones who gets the life squeezed out of him by public school, but there are plenty of parents who read to their kids every night who aren't so lucky. Sending your child to public school is a huge decision, and yet it is viewed as a default by most people. This is 15,000 hours of your child's life, and that's a considerable amount of formative time. It is ABSOLUTELY a reflection on the parents to send their kid to public school, and certainly a reflection on their priorities. Whether it's you not feeling like homeschooling, or not finding a private school to take him with financial aid, or whatever, it's still your choice.
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Weak.
I "force" my son to go to avoid going to court with his mom since she doesn't want him to be home schooled. I'm not rolling in the dough so private school is out.
There's a limit to how effective this argument is, that "ya gotta do whatever you must to get yer kids outta public skoo!". Many working class people just don't have the means.
Right, you choose public education over homeschooling. You choose to live where you live and what sacrifices you make financially..you are choosing to send your kids to public school. It's very easy to applaud yourself for good parenting when your kid happens to not be one of the ones who gets the life squeezed out of him by public school, but there are plenty of parents who read to their kids every night who aren't so lucky. Sending your child to public school is a huge decision, and yet it is viewed as a default by most people. This is 15,000 hours of your child's life, and that's a considerable amount of formative time. It is ABSOLUTELY a reflection on the parents to send their kid to public school, and certainly a reflection on their priorities. Whether it's you not feeling like homeschooling, or not finding a private school to take him with financial aid, or whatever, it's still your choice.
dude, his wife has custody!
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Let's play the blame game.
Weak.
I "force" my son to go to avoid going to court with his mom since she doesn't want him to be home schooled.
Like I said, blame the parents. His mother is a parent too, right?
I'm not rolling in the dough so private school is out.
There's a limit to how effective this argument is, that "ya gotta do whatever you must to get yer kids outta public skoo!". Many working class people just don't have the means.
Weak.
There is a limit to how effective your "don't have the means" argument is when you take vacations to Disney world.
I'm not rolling in dough, so vacations to Disney are out for me and my kids.
Rolling in the dough? Not so much.. I skimped like mad to get that vacation in order, and like I said, there was a special for kids aged 3-9 to do all the shit for free if 2 adults paid full price. 4 days & nights in a mid-level Disney hotel, food, gifts, gas & some side attractions came in under 2 grand. I'm skimping like mad now to make it happen again in a year or so. Skimping = no wasting money on shit that most families probably do (cable TV, SUV, fashionable & trendy shit), and I have one credit card with a low balance.
Weak.
I "force" my son to go to avoid going to court with his mom since she doesn't want him to be home schooled. I'm not rolling in the dough so private school is out.
There's a limit to how effective this argument is, that "ya gotta do whatever you must to get yer kids outta public skoo!". Many working class people just don't have the means.
Right, you choose public education over homeschooling. You choose to live where you live and what sacrifices you make financially..you are choosing to send your kids to public school. It's very easy to applaud yourself for good parenting when your kid happens to not be one of the ones who gets the life squeezed out of him by public school, but there are plenty of parents who read to their kids every night who aren't so lucky. Sending your child to public school is a huge decision, and yet it is viewed as a default by most people. This is 15,000 hours of your child's life, and that's a considerable amount of formative time. It is ABSOLUTELY a reflection on the parents to send their kid to public school, and certainly a reflection on their priorities. Whether it's you not feeling like homeschooling, or not finding a private school to take him with financial aid, or whatever, it's still your choice.
dude, his wife has custody!
Just shared custody. I have him more often actually.
She isn't willing to move out of the city, so I can't choose to move without choosing to see him less often. I can't withdraw him from school unless I want to create some significant drama with his mom (whom I'm lucky enough to get along with and she isn't using the courts to screw me over).
All that shit aside though, fact is my kid is learning in public school. He's learning more than I did, a lot faster and earlier. Depending on who you ask, public schools are notoriously bad for social conditioning, political correctness & government worship... some parents consider that as meaningful (if not more so) than education.
To counteract that, I teach him what their agenda is, to be mindful of it and how to avoid falling into the groupthink trap.
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Are you okay?
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To counteract that, I teach him what their agenda is, to be mindful of it and how to avoid falling into the groupthink trap.
Just curious...
Does your kid really "get" it, or is he in that stage of "yeah, ok dad, gotta go!" as he's on his way out the door?
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I think if I had kids (please no) then I would send them to public school for at least part of their lives. Possibly High School. It would teach them about the many scumbag personalities out there, that their parents views are ABSOLUTELY NOT the ABSOLUTE TRUTH about the world. Many homeschooled kids think their parents are 100% correct about everything about life, because they havent been exposed to anything else. Also, if you're paying a ton of money for it, might as well use it. Homeschooling would definitely be utelized, but there are certain things that a more organized school system with paid teachers can quite frankly do better.
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I would also like to point out that I would teach my kid many things not covered in public school at all.
My kid would have a job at some point, a real one. My kid would have as much apprentice type training as I could give them (farming, workshop, building, business, cooking, camping, salesmanship, scientific method, etc) specifically beyond from what I myself could teach them. My kid would also be studied in the political spectrum, philosophical spectrum, learn the basis and motivation behind morals, and garner an understanding of the history and similarities of religion.
The stuff listed above, what kid has ever been given that in school? Why have they not???
Oh yeah, I used triple punctuation, and I never do that.
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Don't want to be a stick n the mud, but many schools cover those things. 4H,Votech, Shop class, fundraising, philosophy class. Hell, one school I attended had a gun safety class that actually taught useful things.
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Don't want to be a stick n the mud, but many schools cover those things. 4H,Votech, Shop class, fundraising, philosophy class. Hell, one school I attended had a gun safety class that actually taught useful things.
I was in Boy Scouts and knew people in 4H, wasnt a part of school though and entirely depended on parents to run. Shop class at my school was canceled right before I made it to High School because the teacher retired. They turned the room into a study room (aka just babysit the students) and sold ALL the nice machinery. Fundraising wasnt taught beyond stupid scam magazine sales (total ripoff of the students). Philosophy was never covered, politics not covered, religion not covered, business not covered beyond a simple accounting elective class, science was greatly inadequate, no economics either. Hell, we had a "Government" class and I still learned nothing of value, it was all really just history. F A I L
I took nearly all the tip top classes for every single genre including Anatomy, Physics, all the advanced literature and English classes, Calculus, etc. and understood them all (my grades were A, B, C's depending on whether I gave a shit). I had wrongly assumed at the time that you were supposed the hardest class load as you could handle each year. I ended up getting a high score on my ACT. Still I decided to drop out of college after a 3 semesters. I have taught myself way more concepts that appeal to me than I ever learned in school.
Somehow after all that schooling I came away feeling inadequate, and I wouldnt want my kid to feel the same.
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Also, if you're paying a ton of money for it, might as well use it.
Might as well spend some time in prison too.
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Rolling in the dough? Not so much.. I skimped like mad to get that vacation in order, and like I said, there was a special for kids aged 3-9 to do all the shit for free if 2 adults paid full price. 4 days & nights in a mid-level Disney hotel, food, gifts, gas & some side attractions came in under 2 grand. I'm skimping like mad now to make it happen again in a year or so. Skimping = no wasting money on shit that most families probably do (cable TV, SUV, fashionable & trendy shit), and I have one credit card with a low balance.
You don't need to justify your fashionable and trendy vacations to me.
It just seems like a very strange argument to make, that working class people can't afford to educate their own children, but they have plenty of money for fashionable and trendy shit.
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Blackie, Lay off. Let's say he (hypothetically Fred) has two kids and it costs 5k a year to educate them. If he has only 2k, there's no way he could educate them himself (sounds like he still teaches them extracurricularly), but he can afford to give them a nice time at Disney for a week.
Now, anarchir, sounds like your school sucked. Public education was a joke that I took all too seriously, but I learned a lot (self-driven, mostly). I had one history teacher that taught decent history. I learned about Laisse Faire and how Robber Barons really weren't so bad when they weren't colluding with gov't and how FDR was an evil genius. I had two lit teachers that I would credit all of my writing skills to (it used to be worse). I had another history professor who, every Friday, would pull all of the desks to the walls, throw pillows in the floor, brew tea and discuss philosophy with his students for an hour and a half (block scheduling). My final school would let seniors who had completed their credit requirements to leave early for work or concurrent enrollment at a college. Still, I think you're right on the money about the level of caring and parental involvement. Most of the best classes are elective and the core curriculum allows children to sleepwalk through school without picking up any life skills.
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Are you okay?
I think so.. what did you pick up on in there?
You don't need to justify your fashionable and trendy vacations to me.
It just seems like a very strange argument to make, that working class people can't afford to educate their own children, but they have plenty of money for fashionable and trendy shit.
Hmm... I do believe you have picked up on my anti-fashionable & anti-trendy stance and are trying to antagonize me ol' chap.
I'm the least fashionable or trendy guy I know.. whole family is. I do have a pair of Puma shoes though.
Maybe you're talking about the souvenirs.. my son chose a pair of chopsticks with owls on them, my daughter picked a Donald Duck doll. They each got a tshirt too I think. Big spendin' that.
If you read my post about Disney in Dragline's thread, about how posh my family is and how we live it up at Disneyland resorts, keep in mind that whenever I brag here it's always with a great deal of self-deprecation.
But there I go justifying shit again eh?
My argument wasn't about expenses, so I'm not sure where you're coming from. If a person can read and has decent wits about him, he can learn anything. I do splurge on an internet connection, which my son could use - on his own even - to learn whatever he fancies. It isn't about cost at all, it's about balance.
To counteract that, I teach him what their agenda is, to be mindful of it and how to avoid falling into the groupthink trap.
Just curious...
Does your kid really "get" it, or is he in that stage of "yeah, ok dad, gotta go!" as he's on his way out the door?
No- he gets it. His mom has complained to me that I say too much shit to him about politics, cops, corruption, the slanted history he is taught in school, etc. Maybe I am saying too much.. my daughter commonly points to police cars when we're out and asks "Is that a good cop or a bad cop?"