Welcome to the Free Talk Live bulletin board system!
This board is closed to new users and new posts.  Thank you to all our great mods and users over the years.  Details here.
185859 Posts in 9829 Topics by 1371 Members
Latest Member: cjt26
Home Help
+  The Free Talk Live BBS
|-+  Free Talk Live
| |-+  General
| | |-+  Should we cry for Haiti??? your thoughts
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5   Go Down

Author Topic: Should we cry for Haiti??? your thoughts  (Read 11616 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

freeAgent

  • pwn*
  • FTL AMPlifier
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3660
    • View Profile
Re: Should we cry for Haiti??? your thoughts
« Reply #15 on: January 17, 2010, 04:00:22 PM »

I think it's strange that people believe building codes would have saved Haiti from disaster.  People don't build shitty buildings because they're lazy or because they feel like it.  They build them because they're too poor to build better ones.  If you had restrictive building codes in Haiti, it seems very likely to me that you would simply have very few buildings.  I think it's hard to say that they would be better off without buildings.  Sure, disasters are bad.  However, if you mitigate random disasters by just making everyday life shittier, I'm not sure that you've accomplished something worthwhile.
Logged

Diogenes The Cynic

  • Cynic. Pessimist. Skeptic. Jerk.
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3727
    • View Profile
Re: Should we cry for Haiti??? your thoughts
« Reply #16 on: January 17, 2010, 04:34:41 PM »

Even if you judge that they "brought this upon themselves" you still have to feel bad about human suffering.
Logged
I am looking for an honest man. -Diogenes The Cynic

Dude, I thought you were a spambot for like a week. You posted like a spambot. You failed the Turing test.

                                -Dennis Goddard

libertylover

  • No Title Needed
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3791
    • View Profile
Re: Should we cry for Haiti??? your thoughts
« Reply #17 on: January 17, 2010, 04:41:06 PM »

People seem to ignore the fact that France imposed and huge debt on Hati for it's freedom to be a recognized sovereign country.  A debt which took them over a century to pay back and only managed to finish paying in 1947.  (Heard this factoid on CBS Sunday Morning) It makes me wonder why America wasn't forced to pay a debt to England when the colonies revolted against England.  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/External_debt_of_Haiti
Logged

theCelestrian

  • Purveyor of Crapulence
  • FTL Creative Team
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 510
  • [ insert awesomely insightful comment here ]
    • View Profile
Re: Should we cry for Haiti??? your thoughts
« Reply #18 on: January 17, 2010, 05:02:15 PM »

People seem to ignore the fact that France imposed and huge debt on Hati for it's freedom to be a recognized sovereign country.  A debt which took them over a century to pay back and only managed to finish paying in 1947.  (Heard this factoid on CBS Sunday Morning) It makes me wonder why America wasn't forced to pay a debt to England when the colonies revolted against England.  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/External_debt_of_Haiti

Well, couple reasons:

  • England lost a war - it's generally rare for a defeated power to make fiscal demands on their victors.

  • You could argue England did prior to the revolution with the various taxes and laws requiring the colonies to deal with certain British monopolies.  Rather than for independence, however, it was for the priviledge of "self-governance." 

    Oh yeah, and to pay for previous conflicts with the french and Native American populations.
Logged
- Branden
[ insert amazingly cool liberty-oriented witticism of your choice here ]

libertylover

  • No Title Needed
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3791
    • View Profile
Re: Should we cry for Haiti??? your thoughts
« Reply #19 on: January 17, 2010, 05:09:28 PM »

People seem to ignore the fact that France imposed and huge debt on Hati for it's freedom to be a recognized sovereign country.  A debt which took them over a century to pay back and only managed to finish paying in 1947.  (Heard this factoid on CBS Sunday Morning) It makes me wonder why America wasn't forced to pay a debt to England when the colonies revolted against England.  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/External_debt_of_Haiti

Well, couple reasons:

  • England lost a war - it's generally rare for a defeated power to make fiscal demands on their victors.

  • You could argue England did prior to the revolution with the various taxes and laws requiring the colonies to deal with certain British monopolies.  Rather than for independence, however, it was for the priviledge of "self-governance." 

    Oh yeah, and to pay for previous conflicts with the french and Native American populations.
But wasn't the Haitian revolt against the French a success?  Didn't they win their war for control of their part of the Island?
Logged

theCelestrian

  • Purveyor of Crapulence
  • FTL Creative Team
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 510
  • [ insert awesomely insightful comment here ]
    • View Profile
Re: Should we cry for Haiti??? your thoughts
« Reply #20 on: January 17, 2010, 05:22:41 PM »

But wasn't the Haitian revolt against the French a success?  Didn't they win their war for control of their part of the Island?

A very fair question.  The difference with the Haitian revolt is that the French basically declared the debt with their warships at the ready, so the answer to the "sucess" portion of your supposition is "kind of but not really."

It would be more apt to say the Haitians were given a "Sophie's choice" - their money (legalized as a "transaction" for their independence) or their lives.  For whatever reason, because we weren't there, it could be a possible postulation that the French saw an opportunity to simply gain the revenues they would have lost as having Haiti continually remain a French colony - and simultaneously not have deal with the "maintenance" of keeping the population under control.

Doesn't make it right - but the results are not that unpredictable: Individuals who wished power in Haiti readily accepted, and since at the time this was a property of France, recognition as an independent nation would first have to come from France prior to the bulk of the other worlds nations following suit.  Granted, you could hypothesize that Britain might have recognized Haiti, or even a couple of other countries as well, but that also carries the risk of Armed conflict as they would be seen by France as "Foreign Instigatiors" in a potential uprising.  Thus the veil of legitimacy was clasped from both ends of the situation.

Contrasted with the US revolution - Britain was not in a similar position.  France has already entered into an Aliance with the (then) Colonies, and because of Britains other skirmishes with France, simply did not have the logistical means to attempt the blackmail, for lack of a better or more appropriate term.
Logged
- Branden
[ insert amazingly cool liberty-oriented witticism of your choice here ]

fatcat

  • Guest
Re: Should we cry for Haiti??? your thoughts
« Reply #21 on: January 17, 2010, 06:09:08 PM »

I think it's strange that people believe building codes would have saved Haiti from disaster.  People don't build shitty buildings because they're lazy or because they feel like it.  They build them because they're too poor to build better ones.  If you had restrictive building codes in Haiti, it seems very likely to me that you would simply have very few buildings.  I think it's hard to say that they would be better off without buildings.  Sure, disasters are bad.  However, if you mitigate random disasters by just making everyday life shittier, I'm not sure that you've accomplished something worthwhile.

FUCKING THIS.

IF you rigorously enforced housing codes, poor people wouldn't be able to live in or near the city, they'd be forced back to living subsistence on the land (which is the worse standard of living in Haiti).
Logged

fatcat

  • Guest
Re: Should we cry for Haiti??? your thoughts
« Reply #22 on: January 17, 2010, 06:34:25 PM »

My comparison between Appalachia & Haiti was done just to compare how poor people can react differently in similar situations. If I knew more about shanties in HK or SG, then I'd have compared those two.

As acknowledged in the other thread, yes, the Haiti gov. is and has been responsible for some of the trouble. The other portion lies with the people themselves. Gov. doesn't force life the choices you see made by (apparently) the majority of poor Haitians. If the Haitian gov. is the bottleneck stemming the flow of international aid (pre-quake), then whoever sent the funds time and time again are just as responsible as that gov. for the citizens' continued struggle.

Just as you disagree that social programs aren't always bad (I agree), I disagree that the gov. is always to blame.

Government isn't always to blame, but it is in this case.

What portion of the economic destruction are Haitian individuals meant to be responsible for? What bad choices are they making? You think its just a coincidence that theres massive unemployment and massive economic interference at the same time?

How can you look at the severe economic interference (minimum wage, restrictions on firing workers, large inflation, high taxes, massive corruption, badly enforced property rights, restrictions on foreign investments, massive restrictions on setting up a business and getting a business liscense) and come to the conclusion that its the individuals fault? (unless you're going to blame them for the democratic power structure they have virtually no say in)

Look at what happened in Dominican republic when the socialists got in power. The economy fucking nose dived. Extrapolate that out a few decades and you'd easily get something like Haiti. Did Haitians suddenly take over? Did Haitian culture take over? Did all dominicans suddenly turn stupid or lazy?

No, individuals acted like most individuals do, in their own self interest, and the scope they can achieve prosperity is acutely affected by the freedoms government allow.

Have you provided any evidence that the market reforms in China and India where actually the result of individuals deciding they want over dumb luck?

When individual people are lucky enough to have a government that allows economic freedom, they'll make themselves rich, if the government cripples their ability to make money then they won't be able to.
Logged

Riddler

  • Guest
Re: Should we cry for Haiti??? your thoughts
« Reply #23 on: January 17, 2010, 10:04:57 PM »

People don't build shitty buildings because they're lazy or because they feel like it.  They build them because they're too poor to build better ones.

ok.
fine. you live with your (poor)decision making, and lack of self-preservation.
i build a house out of fucking cardboard, i accept the risk that, come a windy/rainy/shiity blow-down day, the motherfucker's probly gonna cave in on my stupid-fucking-head.
why is everyone ''surprised'' & caught off-guard, when the shit-box structures i wouldn't let my dog live in, collapse & kill thousands.
i have the same lack of empathy for the new orleans asshole populace.
>>>if i look out my back door every day & stare at a 30 foot wall that seperates my back yard from a FUCKING OCEAN OF WATER, well then, if i don't run away when i've been warned of a class-five, pipe-hitting, cock-sucker hurricane breathing down my neck..i guess i'm TOO FUCKING STUPID TO BE TAKING UP SPACE & AIR on this here planet...
nigga please
Logged

freeAgent

  • pwn*
  • FTL AMPlifier
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3660
    • View Profile
Re: Should we cry for Haiti??? your thoughts
« Reply #24 on: January 17, 2010, 10:18:18 PM »

People don't build shitty buildings because they're lazy or because they feel like it.  They build them because they're too poor to build better ones.

ok.
fine. you live with your (poor)decision making, and lack of self-preservation.
i build a house out of fucking cardboard, i accept the risk that, come a windy/rainy/shiity blow-down day, the motherfucker's probly gonna cave in on my stupid-fucking-head.
why is everyone ''surprised'' & caught off-guard, when the shit-box structures i wouldn't let my dog live in, collapse & kill thousands.
i have the same lack of empathy for the new orleans asshole populace.
>>>if i look out my back door every day & stare at a 30 foot wall that seperates my back yard from a FUCKING OCEAN OF WATER, well then, if i don't run away when i've been warned of a class-five, pipe-hitting, cock-sucker hurricane breathing down my neck..i guess i'm TOO FUCKING STUPID TO BE TAKING UP SPACE & AIR on this here planet...
nigga please

I don't understand what you're trying to say, given that your original post specifically mentioned building codes, etc. as something that would have helped here.
Logged

mikehz

  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8033
    • View Profile
    • Day by Day
Re: Should we cry for Haiti??? your thoughts
« Reply #25 on: January 17, 2010, 11:15:46 PM »

Hey, I'm sending them money, because I can't stand not to. But, I live under no illusion that the situation will improve much.
Logged
"Force always attracts men of low morality." Albert Einstein

Riddler

  • Guest
Re: Should we cry for Haiti??? your thoughts
« Reply #26 on: January 17, 2010, 11:30:37 PM »



I don't understand what you're trying to say, given that your original post specifically mentioned building codes, etc. as something that would have helped here.

i'm saying that darwin was on to something with that ''natural selection'' thing.
i'm saying that, if certain peoples are too fucking stupid to come in out of the fucking rain, well, they reap what they sow...
cunt-bag/fat-cat calls me an idiot for stating the obvious....
if you are inept..you don't survive
Logged

Diogenes The Cynic

  • Cynic. Pessimist. Skeptic. Jerk.
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3727
    • View Profile
Re: Should we cry for Haiti??? your thoughts
« Reply #27 on: January 18, 2010, 12:04:09 AM »

People seem to ignore the fact that France imposed and huge debt on Hati for it's freedom to be a recognized sovereign country.  A debt which took them over a century to pay back and only managed to finish paying in 1947.  (Heard this factoid on CBS Sunday Morning) It makes me wonder why America wasn't forced to pay a debt to England when the colonies revolted against England.  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/External_debt_of_Haiti

Well, couple reasons:

  • England lost a war - it's generally rare for a defeated power to make fiscal demands on their victors.

  • You could argue England did prior to the revolution with the various taxes and laws requiring the colonies to deal with certain British monopolies.  Rather than for independence, however, it was for the priviledge of "self-governance." 

    Oh yeah, and to pay for previous conflicts with the french and Native American populations.
But wasn't the Haitian revolt against the French a success?  Didn't they win their war for control of their part of the Island?

They won their war THREE times. They beat in succession every powerful colonial power of the time; France, Britain, and Spain.
Logged
I am looking for an honest man. -Diogenes The Cynic

Dude, I thought you were a spambot for like a week. You posted like a spambot. You failed the Turing test.

                                -Dennis Goddard

hellbilly

  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6664
  • Pogue Mahone.
    • View Profile
Re: Should we cry for Haiti??? your thoughts
« Reply #28 on: January 18, 2010, 12:22:14 AM »

What would you do if you lived there three years ago, and didn't have any responsibilities to anyone but yourself?

I'd have left.

Quote
Then ask yourself, why are you still living where you live.  

I'm comfortable.

Not sure if you were edging towards something more profound.

Government isn't always to blame, but it is in this case.

No, it isn't. Partially yes, entirely, no.

Example: With so many unemployed, that creates a large source of idle time that could be directed towards volunteer efforts to maintain basic human needs. One of which is proper disposal of human waste, and refuse in general. If I, as an unemployed Haitian, noted a lack of such, I would work to organize a few of my fellow unemployed neighbors and dig a massive latrine, with good fortune I could complete this project with 20 men, and potentially even create something more wondrous than my initial goals, creating a waste-channel that reaches the ocean.

In return for my team's accomplishment, we would request that we be given a token of appreciation, just once, by any and all who would make use of this leap forward in our local progress. It may be bread, may be a new shovel, but whatever I gained from that venture I would attempt to apply to a future project to benefit myself and my neighbors, and would wish that my example would be a beacon of inspiration for others to follow of their own will, thereby bypassing the government who has failed us, and giving a solid boost to morale locally.

Quote
What portion of the economic destruction are Haitian individuals meant to be responsible for? What bad choices are they making? You think its just a coincidence that theres massive unemployment and massive economic interference at the same time?

Pre, Post or 200 years ago?

Quote
Have you provided any evidence that the market reforms in China and India where actually the result of individuals deciding they want over dumb luck?

I do not recall having produced any such evidence. However, given that the histories of those two countries, and many others, have frequently been in flux and appear to remain prone to that condition, I cannot say what the ingredients were that caused either successes or failures within those borders. I can say with positive enthusiasm that whenever you do mention China and India that my appetite becomes aroused, and such is the case at this exact moment, or, more accurately, it became noticed unto me at the time I typed "ingredients" above. It was the clashing of those two names of countries met up against that word that created an almost euphoric rise in my guttural region to the point where my sense of smell deceived me and one would swear that they heard a distinct sniffing noise emit from my being, if they were in close proximity at the time of this writing.

Quote
When individual people are lucky enough to have a government that allows economic freedom, they'll make themselves rich, if the government cripples their ability to make money then they won't be able to.

Sir.. are you a wealthy man?

« Last Edit: January 18, 2010, 12:24:07 AM by hellbilly »
Logged
Give me Liberty or give me Meth!

"We are profoundly dissatisfied with pretty much everything but we can’t articulate why, and are unable to offer any viable alternative." - Nathaniel Weiner

Bill Brasky

  • Guest
Re: Should we cry for Haiti??? your thoughts
« Reply #29 on: January 18, 2010, 12:33:04 AM »

if you are inept..you don't survive

This country is much more forgiving of ineptitude. 
Logged
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5   Go Up
+  The Free Talk Live BBS
|-+  Free Talk Live
| |-+  General
| | |-+  Should we cry for Haiti??? your thoughts

// ]]>

Page created in 0.038 seconds with 33 queries.