i wish this shit on no one....however...
don't bring shit upon yourselves.
#1
don't make multi-story buildings out of rubbish & cast-offs
#2
don't let 5x the normal occupancy standard occupy said buildings
#3
hello building codes...(they don't have them OBVIOUSLY....so you ''anarchists'' would feel right at home......''NO GOVT. MEDDLING!!!!''....how's that workin' out?)
#4
hello BIRTH CONTROL
every time these people fuck, BLOOP! , another kid...
they have an area(port-au-prince) that could support 50K peeps.....but there's sumthin' like 1.8 MILLION fucking people living on top of one another.
My comparison between Appalachia & Haiti was done just to compare how poor people can react differently in similar situations. If I knew more about shanties in HK or SG, then I'd have compared those two.
As acknowledged in the other thread, yes, the Haiti gov. is and has been responsible for some of the trouble. The other portion lies with the people themselves. Gov. doesn't force life the choices you see made by (apparently) the majority of poor Haitians. If the Haitian gov. is the bottleneck stemming the flow of international aid (pre-quake), then whoever sent the funds time and time again are just as responsible as that gov. for the citizens' continued struggle.
Just as you disagree that social programs aren't always bad (I agree), I disagree that the gov. is always to blame.
i wish this shit on no one....however...
don't bring shit upon yourselves.
#1
don't make multi-story buildings out of rubbish & cast-offs
#2
don't let 5x the normal occupancy standard occupy said buildings
#3
hello building codes...(they don't have them OBVIOUSLY....so you ''anarchists'' would feel right at home......''NO GOVT. MEDDLING!!!!''....how's that workin' out?)
#4
hello BIRTH CONTROL
every time these people fuck, BLOOP! , another kid...
they have an area(port-au-prince) that could support 50K peeps.....but there's sumthin' like 1.8 MILLION fucking people living on top of one another.
Idiot.
Hong Kong and Singapore are packed way denser than Haiti.
People don't live in shanties because they're too stupid to build something better, they build them because thats all they can afford if they want to live near or in a city, and if you want a job the best place to live is the city.
and they're poor because the government there has fucked them.
I feel sorry for them. Its not their fault they're impoverished. Its the Haitian governments fault, for exploiting them down to the penny. Their government ruled them with extreme force, and didn't give back the infrastructure they're supposed to in regard to ruling a taxed populace.
This post ended up sounding very much like a cheerleader for American social programs. And in a sense, it is. We have it good, and we're lucky in many ways even though the fucking thing is totally mismanaged. I think too many people here wave their hand at all of it, and call it bad. I disagree with that, and Haiti is proof.
Giving money and food will just make the problem worse, sadly.
once again:
see #4
all these shithole 3rd-worlders know how to do is FUCK
they start out uneducated & keep repopulating like flies
stupid is, as stupid does, mrs. gump...
once again:
see #4
all these shithole 3rd-worlders know how to do is FUCK
they start out uneducated & keep repopulating like flies
stupid is, as stupid does, mrs. gump...
Like you'd be any different if you had been born, raised, and lived under the same conditions.
As acknowledged in the other thread, yes, the Haiti gov. is and has been responsible for some of the trouble. The other portion lies with the people themselves. ..[trunacated].. Just as you disagree that social programs aren't always bad (I agree), I disagree that the gov. is always to blame.
funny.
what's on the other side of the island?
dominican republic....
also funny,
they don't seem to be plagued by the shit the haitians can't get themselves out of.
if the govt,. is the problem, they could overthrow it....if they really wanted to.
these banana-republic shitholes have coups every other fucking year...it's not unheard of.
haiti has the potential to be a gold mine.
it's in the fucking carribean.
they were better off under the management of a colonial power....nigga's w/ an iq over 30
Once again:
see #4
all these shithole 3rd-worlders know how to do is FUCK
they start out uneducated & keep repopulating like flies
stupid is, as stupid does, mrs. gump...
the one's that got out, went to a better place & got an education?
bravo.
now go BACK to your birthplace & make IT better...
there's where the blame can rest.
People seem to ignore the fact that France imposed and huge debt on Hati for it's freedom to be a recognized sovereign country. A debt which took them over a century to pay back and only managed to finish paying in 1947. (Heard this factoid on CBS Sunday Morning) It makes me wonder why America wasn't forced to pay a debt to England when the colonies revolted against England.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/External_debt_of_Haiti (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/External_debt_of_Haiti)
But wasn't the Haitian revolt against the French a success? Didn't they win their war for control of their part of the Island?People seem to ignore the fact that France imposed and huge debt on Hati for it's freedom to be a recognized sovereign country. A debt which took them over a century to pay back and only managed to finish paying in 1947. (Heard this factoid on CBS Sunday Morning) It makes me wonder why America wasn't forced to pay a debt to England when the colonies revolted against England.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/External_debt_of_Haiti (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/External_debt_of_Haiti)
Well, couple reasons:
- England lost a war - it's generally rare for a defeated power to make fiscal demands on their victors.
- You could argue England did prior to the revolution with the various taxes and laws requiring the colonies to deal with certain British monopolies. Rather than for independence, however, it was for the priviledge of "self-governance."
Oh yeah, and to pay for previous conflicts with the french and Native American populations.
But wasn't the Haitian revolt against the French a success? Didn't they win their war for control of their part of the Island?
I think it's strange that people believe building codes would have saved Haiti from disaster. People don't build shitty buildings because they're lazy or because they feel like it. They build them because they're too poor to build better ones. If you had restrictive building codes in Haiti, it seems very likely to me that you would simply have very few buildings. I think it's hard to say that they would be better off without buildings. Sure, disasters are bad. However, if you mitigate random disasters by just making everyday life shittier, I'm not sure that you've accomplished something worthwhile.
My comparison between Appalachia & Haiti was done just to compare how poor people can react differently in similar situations. If I knew more about shanties in HK or SG, then I'd have compared those two.
As acknowledged in the other thread, yes, the Haiti gov. is and has been responsible for some of the trouble. The other portion lies with the people themselves. Gov. doesn't force life the choices you see made by (apparently) the majority of poor Haitians. If the Haitian gov. is the bottleneck stemming the flow of international aid (pre-quake), then whoever sent the funds time and time again are just as responsible as that gov. for the citizens' continued struggle.
Just as you disagree that social programs aren't always bad (I agree), I disagree that the gov. is always to blame.
People don't build shitty buildings because they're lazy or because they feel like it. They build them because they're too poor to build better ones.
People don't build shitty buildings because they're lazy or because they feel like it. They build them because they're too poor to build better ones.
ok.
fine. you live with your (poor)decision making, and lack of self-preservation.
i build a house out of fucking cardboard, i accept the risk that, come a windy/rainy/shiity blow-down day, the motherfucker's probly gonna cave in on my stupid-fucking-head.
why is everyone ''surprised'' & caught off-guard, when the shit-box structures i wouldn't let my dog live in, collapse & kill thousands.
i have the same lack of empathy for the new orleans asshole populace.
>>>if i look out my back door every day & stare at a 30 foot wall that seperates my back yard from a FUCKING OCEAN OF WATER, well then, if i don't run away when i've been warned of a class-five, pipe-hitting, cock-sucker hurricane breathing down my neck..i guess i'm TOO FUCKING STUPID TO BE TAKING UP SPACE & AIR on this here planet...
nigga please
I don't understand what you're trying to say, given that your original post specifically mentioned building codes, etc. as something that would have helped here.
But wasn't the Haitian revolt against the French a success? Didn't they win their war for control of their part of the Island?People seem to ignore the fact that France imposed and huge debt on Hati for it's freedom to be a recognized sovereign country. A debt which took them over a century to pay back and only managed to finish paying in 1947. (Heard this factoid on CBS Sunday Morning) It makes me wonder why America wasn't forced to pay a debt to England when the colonies revolted against England.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/External_debt_of_Haiti (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/External_debt_of_Haiti)
Well, couple reasons:
- England lost a war - it's generally rare for a defeated power to make fiscal demands on their victors.
- You could argue England did prior to the revolution with the various taxes and laws requiring the colonies to deal with certain British monopolies. Rather than for independence, however, it was for the priviledge of "self-governance."
Oh yeah, and to pay for previous conflicts with the french and Native American populations.
What would you do if you lived there three years ago, and didn't have any responsibilities to anyone but yourself?
Then ask yourself, why are you still living where you live.
Government isn't always to blame, but it is in this case.
What portion of the economic destruction are Haitian individuals meant to be responsible for? What bad choices are they making? You think its just a coincidence that theres massive unemployment and massive economic interference at the same time?
Have you provided any evidence that the market reforms in China and India where actually the result of individuals deciding they want over dumb luck?
When individual people are lucky enough to have a government that allows economic freedom, they'll make themselves rich, if the government cripples their ability to make money then they won't be able to.
if you are inept..you don't survive
What would you do if you lived there three years ago, and didn't have any responsibilities to anyone but yourself?
I'd have left.QuoteThen ask yourself, why are you still living where you live.
I'm comfortable.
What would you do if you lived there three years ago, and didn't have any responsibilities to anyone but yourself?
I'd have left.QuoteThen ask yourself, why are you still living where you live.
I'm comfortable.
I doubt you'd have left. How would you do that? Leaving Haiti is illegal, dangerous, and severely punished if the refugee is returned.
The reason I ask the second question is, you probably wouldn't be here if you weren't of a dissenter mindset. Most people realize there are better places, different countries or even less restrictive states. You probably live within one tank of gas from the place you were born. And you can't tell me that is the least oppressive place on earth. You are one of the most heavily taxed citizens on the planet, and its getting worse by the minute. By the time you die, 3/4ths of your income will be given to the state in various taxes. That is the definition of slavery.
But the consciousness that surrounds you is something you acclimate to. It becomes the norm. Not entirely different from Haiti, just different details. So its likely that if it doesn't really motivate you to leave this, you probably wouldn't be motivated to leave that.
if you are inept..you don't survive
This country is much more forgiving of ineptitude.
once again:
see #4
all these shithole 3rd-worlders know how to do is FUCK
they start out uneducated & keep repopulating like flies
stupid is, as stupid does, mrs. gump...
Like you'd be any different if you had been born, raised, and lived under the same conditions.
once again:
see #4
all these shithole 3rd-worlders know how to do is FUCK
they start out uneducated & keep repopulating like flies
stupid is, as stupid does, mrs. gump...
Like you'd be any different if you had been born, raised, and lived under the same conditions.
''what iff'' game is stupid & pointless
if i had been born a fucking deer, i'd have antlers.
what's YOUR point?
once again:
see #4
all these shithole 3rd-worlders know how to do is FUCK
they start out uneducated & keep repopulating like flies
stupid is, as stupid does, mrs. gump...
Like you'd be any different if you had been born, raised, and lived under the same conditions.
''what iff'' game is stupid & pointless
if i had been born a fucking deer, i'd have antlers.
what's YOUR point?
That you are basically this guy:
(http://z.about.com/d/politicalhumor/1/0/n/U/moran.jpg)
That you are basically this guy:
(http://z.about.com/d/politicalhumor/1/0/n/U/moran.jpg)
What would you do if you lived there three years ago, and didn't have any responsibilities to anyone but yourself?
I'd have left.QuoteThen ask yourself, why are you still living where you live.
I'm comfortable.
I doubt you'd have left. How would you do that? Leaving Haiti is illegal, dangerous, and severely punished if the refugee is returned.
The reason I ask the second question is, you probably wouldn't be here if you weren't of a dissenter mindset. Most people realize there are better places, different countries or even less restrictive states. You probably live within one tank of gas from the place you were born. And you can't tell me that is the least oppressive place on earth. You are one of the most heavily taxed citizens on the planet, and its getting worse by the minute. By the time you die, 3/4ths of your income will be given to the state in various taxes. That is the definition of slavery.
But the consciousness that surrounds you is something you acclimate to. It becomes the norm. Not entirely different from Haiti, just different details. So its likely that if it doesn't really motivate you to leave this, you probably wouldn't be motivated to leave that.
Its like this...............
People get the government they deserve, and by default suffer the concequences of their own political choices. I dont mean voting either.
If in fact these people are sooooooo damn ignorant they let govt do the things they do to them, well, they deserve what they get in the same way people in this country get what we deserve in government, so in short, I guess i have sympathy for these people, but I dont feel the need to help them since they sorta in a round about way brought it upon themselves by "going along to get along", the same way I get my money stolen from me by the IRS because I dont have the balls to just say no out of fear of not being able to walk around without bars in a jail cell blocking my way. I dont expect anyone to feel sorry for me in that sense and I wouldnt expect to feel sorry for anyone else.
But yeah, it sucks for them.................... maybe someday they will wake up and realize why they got to this point.............. but I doubt it.
It applies because the citizens have done little to better themselves. No one disagrees that the gov. there has fucked the people over.
It applies because the citizens have done little to better themselves. No one disagrees that the gov. there has fucked the people over.
THAT
I hear shipping containers are almost hurricane and earthquake proof.
It applies because the citizens have done little to better themselves. No one disagrees that the gov. there has fucked the people over.
THAT
It applies because the citizens have done little to better themselves. No one disagrees that the gov. there has fucked the people over.
THAT
...still has nothing to do with natural disasters.
It applies because the citizens have done little to better themselves. No one disagrees that the gov. there has fucked the people over.
THAT
...still has nothing to do with natural disasters.
Those people didnt die because giant cracks opened up in the earth. They died because their buildings made of basically cow shit and grass couldnt withstand the quake. If they had more money to invest in their buildings, it woudlnt have been so bad in the first place. Now ask yourself why they couldnt build better buildings, and when you answer that question, youll understand why it has EVERYTHING to do with their government. Those people chose their government so it was their own fault.
You choose the conditions you live under......I choose to pay income tax out of fear of going to prison for not doing so. I might someday find myself in a bad position due to the fact that instead of saving that money for something i actually need, i gave it to the IRS instead. Sure the government took it from me, but it was ultimately my own fault for giving it to them in the first place. Did I choose the government I live under???....... no, but i chose to follow along with parts of it, and in the end you can only blame yourself for letting people, or governments screw your life up. To do otherwise only casts responsibility of your condition on someone else and if you do that youll NEVER get the guts up to finally do something about it in the future. So i see what youre saying about them not choosing their govt, but they chose to go along with it, which makes them just as much at fault as the govt itself.It applies because the citizens have done little to better themselves. No one disagrees that the gov. there has fucked the people over.
THAT
...still has nothing to do with natural disasters.
Those people didnt die because giant cracks opened up in the earth. They died because their buildings made of basically cow shit and grass couldnt withstand the quake. If they had more money to invest in their buildings, it woudlnt have been so bad in the first place. Now ask yourself why they couldnt build better buildings, and when you answer that question, youll understand why it has EVERYTHING to do with their government. Those people chose their government so it was their own fault.
I haven't chosen my government. Not all of them chose theirs.
It applies because the citizens have done little to better themselves. No one disagrees that the gov. there has fucked the people over.
THAT
...still has nothing to do with natural disasters.
Those people didnt die because giant cracks opened up in the earth. They died because their buildings made of basically cow shit and grass couldnt withstand the quake. If they had more money to invest in their buildings, it woudlnt have been so bad in the first place. Now ask yourself why they couldnt build better buildings, and when you answer that question, youll understand why it has EVERYTHING to do with their government. Those people chose their government so it was their own fault.
You choose the conditions you live under......I choose to pay income tax out of fear of going to prison for not doing so. I might someday find myself in a bad position due to the fact that instead of saving that money for something i actually need, i gave it to the IRS instead. Sure the government took it from me, but it was ultimately my own fault for giving it to them in the first place. Did I choose the government I live under???....... no, but i chose to follow along with parts of it, and in the end you can only blame yourself for letting people, or governments screw your life up. To do otherwise only casts responsibility of your condition on someone else and if you do that youll NEVER get the guts up to finally do something about it in the future. So i see what youre saying about them not choosing their govt, but they chose to go along with it, which makes them just as much at fault as the govt itself.It applies because the citizens have done little to better themselves. No one disagrees that the gov. there has fucked the people over.
THAT
...still has nothing to do with natural disasters.
Those people didnt die because giant cracks opened up in the earth. They died because their buildings made of basically cow shit and grass couldnt withstand the quake. If they had more money to invest in their buildings, it woudlnt have been so bad in the first place. Now ask yourself why they couldnt build better buildings, and when you answer that question, youll understand why it has EVERYTHING to do with their government. Those people chose their government so it was their own fault.
I haven't chosen my government. Not all of them chose theirs.
just my opinion............ and it just happens to be fact as well :lol:
you wonder why & bitch about U.S. ''meddling'' & interventions?
obviously, these people need guidance...
niggas don't know HOW to run a fucking country...they can't design/engineer/build ANYTHING without outside intervention & monetary influx..
after colonial powers were forced out , or ceded their claim, these people were left to their own devices...cept they HAD NO DEVICES...
simply put:
''THEY DON'T HAVE THE SKILLS TO PAY THE BILLS''
I haven't said we should do anything for them.
I said I did not choose my government, the same as many of them.
I will say that I have empathy for many of them. I may.?.?.? donate to a relief fund.
That's all.
As tragic as the Haitian calamity is, it is merely symptomatic of a far deeper tragedy that's completely ignored, namely self-inflicted poverty.
The biggest reason for Haiti being one of the world's poorest countries is its restrictions on economic liberty. <<< CAUSE
Corruption is rampant. <<< CAUSE
Crime and lawlessness are rampant in Haiti. <<< EFFECT
Private property rights are vital to economic growth.
Haitian President Rene Preval is not enthusiastic about free markets; his heroes are none other than the hemisphere's two brutal communist tyrants: Venezuela's Hugo Chavez and Cuba's Fidel Castro. <<< CAUSE
Haiti's disaster demands immediate Western assistance but it's only the Haitian people who can relieve themselves of the deeper tragedy of self-inflicted poverty. <<< EFFECT, BUT NOT SELF-INFLICTED
A Drifter's Compassion
Brasky's post, as I'll agree with fatcat, is incredibly insightful. I remember reading about 5-10 years ago a interesting statistic (no doubt factually incorrect now, but the I'm confident the jist holds true): If you are a person who actually has $1.00 to put in a bank account, that makes you among the top 1/8th of the World's richest people. This serves as a secondary to my previous point - but addresses that fact that our poor, even our hungry and homeless are still incredibly wealthy when compared to the poor population of say - Haiti. Our poor have shelters, soup kitchens, charity clinics, etc... none of which exist at any substantial level (I'm guessing).
Drifter, I'm confused by your analysis of Walter William's article. It seemed to me to be an explanation of how corrupt government has inflicted poverty on the country which has left them without the ability to help themselves. The solution he offers seems to be for the people to fix the problem of corrupt government.
If you blame the country "as a whole" for the situation that the country "as a whole" is in, then calling the poverty self-inflicted seems fair. I guess I missed the contradiction.
Finally, in response to the thread title, I want to say I do "cry for Haiti". Seeing humans dying, suffering, and helpless, calls for my compassion. I believe that helping individuals who are unable to help themselves to be a noble thing. I hold my compassion for individuals separately from my contempt in which I hold the government of that country.
http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&safe=off&um=1&sa=1&q=haiti+torture&aq=f&oq=&aqi=&start=0
Go there, and keep clicking pages while saying "self-inflicted" at every image until you feel filthy.
Haiti's disaster demands immediate Western assistance but it's only the Haitian people who can relieve themselves of the deeper tragedy of self-inflicted poverty.
http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&safe=off&um=1&sa=1&q=haiti+torture&aq=f&oq=&aqi=&start=0
Go there, and keep clicking pages while saying "self-inflicted" at every image until you feel filthy.
So you are really focusing on that last line.QuoteHaiti's disaster demands immediate Western assistance but it's only the Haitian people who can relieve themselves of the deeper tragedy of self-inflicted poverty.
I thoroughly agree that none of these victims has "inflicted" this on himself. I do,however, agree that the only people who can free them from the ongoing tragedy of these despicable conditions is themselves. I simply can't think of anyone with the capability or the will to do it for them. Certainly not the US government, the UN, or any other supposedly benevolent force in the world, who are now all overrun by that same horrendous ideology.
So I don't feel dirty saying that the power elite of Haiti has inflicted this tragedy upon its own people. I would DEFINITELY agree with you inasmuch as I don't like to subscribe to a collective view. However, if you might look at this from the perspective of Walter Williams, who is an economist and not a "voluntaryist". I think he sees the world in aggregates and, from that perspective, is correct that Haiti has inflicted this upon Haiti.