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fatcat

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Re: Sam is a hero!
« Reply #30 on: May 07, 2009, 07:35:14 PM »

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because its much easier to realize that very little is going to change in politics, and its easier to bullshit yourself that "out of the system" methods can be successful,

hasn't civil disobedience been effective in the past?

I touched on this in a previous post.

"Comparisons to other movements such as civil rights or indian independence are laughable. Both the number of supporters and activists where astronomical in both cases compared to any cohesive libertarian movement."

For whatever reason, Libertarians make up a tiny percentage of nearly every population, and they aren't a particularly cohesive group. There's very little comparisons to the civil rights or indian independence movement.

Those cases are very much the exceptions when it comes to civil disobedience. There are people refusing tax in every country where there are taxes, all of them go to jail, non of them succeed. IF you can get enough people to do it, then it would work, but thats a massive IF, and just engaging civ-dis and hoping for a snowball effect is unlikely to work.

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I'd rather have libertarians living their life in the way they enjoy than wasting it on shit that achieves nothing.

You dont know that. There's strength in numbers and plenty of stories throughout history of underdogs achieving there goals despite diversity.

Not much to say to this, its the same general opinion about activism being able to work, except theres nothing saying how it will work in this situation.

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You should be saying, "You're wrong, this is making a difference, here's how...", not "if you don't have anything positive to say, shut up".

See I did make my points on the difference it made in me. It inspired me. Maybe it won't make a difference but the point is you can never know until you try.
I would rather not give up and just sit around being pessimistic. I want to accomplish something so I'm going to do it.
Even if all I get is a warm fuzzy feeling for just doing what I believe in.

Again, who's saying give up? I'm saying don't waste your time on shit thats not going to make any noticeable difference.

Go to New Hampshire by all means, if its where you want to live, and being around other liberty activists matters to you, but if you were going in hopes of any significant improvement in liberty then I would strongly argue against the probability of that happening.


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"well what are you doing?!" is not a healthy attitude

I just dont see how you can criticize someone for being anothers hero.
You wanted to criticize the free state project and say it'll do nothing then fine.
I asked what you were doing because I wanted to know. How's that unhealthy?
I dislike when someone criticizes a football player yet that "fan" cant and won't do half the shit the players do.

So you shouldn't criticize the maker of a faulty car because you don't know how to fix it?

I called it an unhealthy attitude because I've seen it very often with the NH liberty crowd. They're much more prone to jump to a defensive position and just caring about keeping hold of the idea that NH is their best shot, instead of actually proving to themselves and other people that it actually is.

What the fuck matter does it make if I have a better idea or not? If your premise is valid, you should be able to prove it regardless of what i think is better or not. I'm just talking about whether what you think works, actually works or not.

Now you've been alot more reasonable than alot of other NH libers, but I still think you're falling prone to alot of the emotionally based positions and wishful thinking.

Theres nothing in all you've written that has really gone towards.

For the record, I have actually donated money to both the FSP and FTL, but through debates, I realized that the realistic expectations of the project and NH liberty in general was not as advertised.

If people cut out all the hyperbole and martyrdom, and advertised it as "among the freest states in the US, but probably won't see any meaningful increase in freedoms in the next 20 years", and not "best shot/only hope for liberty" then I'd be alot less pissy with people, especially Civ-Dissers who show an alarming dissociation from the reality of the situation, acting like sub 100 people getting thrown in jail and standing with placards is gonna bring down the most powerful organization on earth.

Again, I'll bring up the cop abuse example. If civ dis is meant to bring other people to liberty and engage some sort of snowball effect, what the fuck is the weekly cases of police murdering people, the cases of vast government mismanagement doing?

If people think its okay for police to murder someone and get away with it, then they're certainly not going to get up in arms about some "tax cheats" or "anarchists" when ideas of "fair share" and "duty" are so prevalent.

Of course, non of that has a good a ring to it as "Liberty in our Lifetime".
« Last Edit: May 07, 2009, 07:39:41 PM by fatcat »
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davann

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Re: Sam is a hero!
« Reply #31 on: May 07, 2009, 07:35:20 PM »

Sam reminds me of the Timothy Treadwell story.

http://www.wolfsongalaska.org/news/Alaska_current_events_815.htm
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Riddler

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Re: Sam is a hero!
« Reply #32 on: May 07, 2009, 07:54:08 PM »

Charge: Lord Humungas talks S%@T while letting a humungas amount of Shmagma build up on his ass.

Verdict: Guilty as charged!

Punishment: IGNORED!!!


shuddup fag.
if you really had ''ignored'' me, you wouldn't commenting on what i'd just posted.
you really should have an array of ''asshats'' for sale on your douchebag t-shirt site.
t'would be a nice compliment
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Jetfire

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Re: Sam is a hero!
« Reply #33 on: May 07, 2009, 07:55:21 PM »

Ok I think you make good points. I dont want to move across the seas though looking for freedom.

Not to mention seasteading doesnt seem like a financially viable option for your average salaried individual.

Honestly that leaves me with very few to no options. I would rather be living around ppl I can at least share ideals with and not be shunned

without anyone giving me a chance to explain my stand point. I'm tired of being surrounded by ignorance. That said I think the change is going to come slow.

I'm willing to chip away as much as I can. Sam shows me there are people who are serious and believe in what they're doing and that really inspires me.

If I tried to instill those ideals in my children I want those ideals to be supported by the community and strengthened. Not shunned.

I want currency to inflate to death and get competing currencies or trade going in the community. Among other things.

Any small progress that can be made I think its important to protect as many liberties as possible.

I usually always keep a good perspective on each situation but I did get kinda emotional. You make sense and some things I may not agree with or feel to strongly about.

I'm only 21 though and plenty of future ahead of me. I have plenty of life experience to gain and if anything this might just be a good learning experience.

but then again we'll see.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2009, 08:02:54 PM by Dave »
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Rillion

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Re: Sam is a hero!
« Reply #34 on: May 07, 2009, 09:07:01 PM »

Brasky can go F%@K himself. I would have (maybe) a touch of respect for him if he actually had nads to say his BS to my face and not behind his IP address.

You're not very familiar with the internet, are you? 
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Bill Brasky

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Re: Sam is a hero!
« Reply #35 on: May 07, 2009, 09:15:40 PM »

Wait a minute...

The t-shirt spammer isn't a total spammer?  What's going on here? 

I think he realized Brasky was serious about the banhammer, and is trying to fit in here while still linking to his shitty site everywhere he can in his profile.

Probly.

This ain't Ebay.  I read up on who he is and checked his blog and all that shit.  I got sick of the big super-hero routine, talking trash to everyone. 

If he wants to hock his shit, he should either participate a little, or AMP.  Or both. 

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Lindsey

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Re: Sam is a hero!
« Reply #36 on: May 07, 2009, 09:16:46 PM »

Wait a minute...

The t-shirt spammer isn't a total spammer?  What's going on here? 

I think he realized Brasky was serious about the banhammer, and is trying to fit in here while still linking to his shitty site everywhere he can in his profile.

Brasky can go F%@K himself. I would have (maybe) a touch of respect for him if he actually had nads to say his BS to my face and not behind his IP address. And as far as posting about liberty, I have more "blogging about liberty" time than most of you have shower time. And as far as gay Brasky's banhammer, JUST BRING IT!!!! I have only two more days off with nothing much going on and then I am back on the road again for another 6 to 8 months before I will get another few days off. Some people actually work for a living. So tell Brasky I am still waiting for his pathetic ass to ban me. Most people I have found on this forum are cool. But the few TROLLS (you know who you are) are seriously a bunch of losers. And that is something I would say to your face. And the label "T-Shirt spammer" will be used for marketing in the trolls own words. So thanks! 

You need to take a sedative or something, man.  It's not unreasonable to ban someone for spamming a forum.  You need to especially take it easy when you're spewing at those of us who mod this forum. 
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Bill Brasky

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Re: Sam is a hero!
« Reply #37 on: May 07, 2009, 09:20:25 PM »

Wait a minute...

The t-shirt spammer isn't a total spammer?  What's going on here? 

I think he realized Brasky was serious about the banhammer, and is trying to fit in here while still linking to his shitty site everywhere he can in his profile.

Brasky can go F%@K himself. I would have (maybe) a touch of respect for him if he actually had nads to say his BS to my face and not behind his IP address. And as far as posting about liberty, I have more "blogging about liberty" time than most of you have shower time. And as far as gay Brasky's banhammer, JUST BRING IT!!!! I have only two more days off with nothing much going on and then I am back on the road again for another 6 to 8 months before I will get another few days off. Some people actually work for a living. So tell Brasky I am still waiting for his pathetic ass to ban me. Most people I have found on this forum are cool. But the few TROLLS (you know who you are) are seriously a bunch of losers. And that is something I would say to your face. And the label "T-Shirt spammer" will be used for marketing in the trolls own words. So thanks! 

What don't you understand about having a policy against spammers, Morley?

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jeffersonish

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Re: Sam is a hero!
« Reply #38 on: May 07, 2009, 09:24:55 PM »

wow people... if you want to promote liberty, do it your way and let others do it their way. Just do it and support others who do it. Praise them for not being statists. Praise them more for working against statists however they do it. But don't try to tear others down who happen to think about or act on liberty expansion in different ways.
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Jetfire

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Re: Sam is a hero!
« Reply #39 on: May 07, 2009, 11:02:29 PM »

dude calm the fuck down
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fatcat

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Re: Sam is a hero!
« Reply #40 on: May 08, 2009, 12:09:27 PM »

wow people... if you want to promote liberty, do it your way and let others do it their way. Just do it and support others who do it. Praise them for not being statists. Praise them more for working against statists however they do it. But don't try to tear others down who happen to think about or act on liberty expansion in different ways.

what a shitty attitude. This is very similar to the kind of bullshit political parties go through, don't say anything to bring down the party, be supportive of other party members no matter what.  :roll:

since when does being libertarian mean you have to be in a happy fun club with every other libertarian?

If there are disputes between any people, they should be vocalized.

Evading scrutiny of your ideas and methods is a very slippery path. Hiding behind "we're all on the same side so we shouldn't criticize each other" doesn't make it any better.

Take the same tact about another issue. Global warming. I think everyone here is against the idea of making the earth uninhabitable with humans, so disagreeing with people who think global warming is a serious issue isn't about "tearing each other down", its about a dispute over beliefs.

One person thinks one thing is true, one person thinks its not. Both of them can't be right, one or non of them could be right. How do they reach a consensus about who is right? Discussion.

Personalizing beliefs to such an extent where you see any questioning of the belief to be a personal attack is a very dangerous thing.

I've said before, I think Sam is well intentioned, I agree with his goals, but not his methods. It would be stupid and completely unhelpful of me not to say so in the name of libertarian unity.

What the fuck does patting each other on the back and shutting down scrutiny do but inflate egos?
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jeffersonish

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Re: Sam is a hero!
« Reply #41 on: May 09, 2009, 02:13:01 PM »

wow people... if you want to promote liberty, do it your way and let others do it their way. Just do it and support others who do it. Praise them for not being statists. Praise them more for working against statists however they do it. But don't try to tear others down who happen to think about or act on liberty expansion in different ways.

what a shitty attitude. This is very similar to the kind of bullshit political parties go through, don't say anything to bring down the party, be supportive of other party members no matter what.  :roll:

since when does being libertarian mean you have to be in a happy fun club with every other libertarian?

If there are disputes between any people, they should be vocalized.

Evading scrutiny of your ideas and methods is a very slippery path. Hiding behind "we're all on the same side so we shouldn't criticize each other" doesn't make it any better.

Take the same tact about another issue. Global warming. I think everyone here is against the idea of making the earth uninhabitable with humans, so disagreeing with people who think global warming is a serious issue isn't about "tearing each other down", its about a dispute over beliefs.

One person thinks one thing is true, one person thinks its not. Both of them can't be right, one or non of them could be right. How do they reach a consensus about who is right? Discussion.

Personalizing beliefs to such an extent where you see any questioning of the belief to be a personal attack is a very dangerous thing.

I've said before, I think Sam is well intentioned, I agree with his goals, but not his methods. It would be stupid and completely unhelpful of me not to say so in the name of libertarian unity.

What the fuck does patting each other on the back and shutting down scrutiny do but inflate egos?

ad hominem attacks are about ego -- they don't help promote anything. Discussing and criticizing the tactics on their merits might. I'm not saying people shouldn't object to Sam's being given hero status -- that isn't what I was talking about. I was really talking about how the conversation had devolved to the point of name calling.

It is true that some tactics will work while others will not but I don't think we, in our self-absorbed little worlds (don't kid yourself if you don't think this applies to you) know what will and what won't. We're also kidding ourselves if we think we can change the world without going through PR setbacks. The political guy will be labeled a one-issue candidate (like Steve Kubby) -- The civil disobedience guy will be labeled a media whore -- The talk show host will be labeled as a self-important opportunist. I'll be labeled a do-nothing Californicator. All the while, if we keep talking about liberty in ways that we can each relate to, more and more people will hear the message and some of them will decide they want some liberty too. As Ron Paul says, "It turns out, liberty is popular."
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fatcat

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Re: Sam is a hero!
« Reply #42 on: May 10, 2009, 12:41:33 PM »

ad hominem attacks are about ego -- they don't help promote anything. Discussing and criticizing the tactics on their merits might. I'm not saying people shouldn't object to Sam's being given hero status -- that isn't what I was talking about.

I can point to several fat ass posts I've made discussing exactly that.

I don't approve of the hero label, precisely because he isn't achieving anything, I haven't engaged in any name calling. I have said multiple times that I agree with Sam's goals, just not his methods, and I have challenged lots of people here to show how it is working without relying on vague generalities like "it might inspire someone" or "its spreading the word".
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JWI

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Re: Sam is a hero!
« Reply #43 on: May 10, 2009, 10:14:39 PM »

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anarchir

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Re: Sam is a hero!
« Reply #44 on: May 12, 2009, 11:38:07 PM »

Seasteading doesn't seem like a financially viable option for your average salaried individual.

I would rather be living around ppl I can at least share ideals with and not be shunned without anyone giving me a chance to explain my stand point. I'm tired of being surrounded by ignorance. That said I think the change is going to come slow.

I'm willing to chip away as much as I can. If I tried to instill those ideals in my children I want those ideals to be supported by the community and strengthened. Not shunned.

I want currency to inflate to death and get competing currencies or trade going in the community. Among other things.

Any small progress that can be made I think its important to protect as many liberties as possible.

I'm only 19 though and plenty of future ahead of me. I have plenty of life experience to gain and if anything this might just be a good learning experience.

but then again we'll see.

This, altered for me.
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