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Author Topic: Sam is a hero!  (Read 36847 times)

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fatcat

  • Guest
Re: Sam is a hero!
« Reply #45 on: May 13, 2009, 11:47:38 AM »

Ok I think you make good points. I dont want to move across the seas though looking for freedom.

Not to mention seasteading doesnt seem like a financially viable option for your average salaried individual.

Honestly that leaves me with very few to no options. I would rather be living around ppl I can at least share ideals with and not be shunned

without anyone giving me a chance to explain my stand point. I'm tired of being surrounded by ignorance. That said I think the change is going to come slow.

I'm willing to chip away as much as I can. Sam shows me there are people who are serious and believe in what they're doing and that really inspires me.

If I tried to instill those ideals in my children I want those ideals to be supported by the community and strengthened. Not shunned.

I want currency to inflate to death and get competing currencies or trade going in the community. Among other things.

Any small progress that can be made I think its important to protect as many liberties as possible.

I usually always keep a good perspective on each situation but I did get kinda emotional. You make sense and some things I may not agree with or feel to strongly about.

I'm only 21 though and plenty of future ahead of me. I have plenty of life experience to gain and if anything this might just be a good learning experience.

but then again we'll see.

I've said it many times before. If you're just looking for somewhere within the US, then NH is a fine choice.

But all the hyperbole is not genuine and its not helpful. The FSP/NH lib isn't a project thats going to provide even noticeable increases in freedom. There isn't dick going to change in New Hampshire any time soon, just like any other US state.

Taxes aren't likely to fall, drug laws aren't likely to be repealed, maybe some softer marijuana laws will come through but that is nothing special to New Hampshire. Business regulation isn't going to get looser. The most realistic expectation is all will be achieved is slowing the rate at which things get worse.

What the Federal government alone is doing will likely outweigh even significant positive changes in NH.

You can talk about having a "libertarian community", but we're talking about less than 500 active people, making up less than 0.1% of the population, thats no different than just a particularly large social club, much of whom have so spectacularly diffuse methods, that any kind of cohesive action is impossible.

You have alot of people building each other up, but very few people being realistic about the actual cold hard reality of the situation. This isn't some plea to give up on any liberty causes, but it is a plea for people to stop thinking mindless optimism is some sort of replacement for resources or numbers.

It would be much better if instead of having this diffuse "libertarian" community, the same amount of people worked together on a single issue, like marijuana decrim, or some housing regulation or some tax. Maybe then the small 500 people could actually make a difference, instead of pissing in the wind trying to bring the whole state down by holding signs and going to jail.

 the US is a sinking ship in terms of liberty, you can try and rearrange the deckchairs, but pretty much every major liberty issue (guns, drugs, taxes, privacy) is going to get worse overall in every state.

With the current global democratic system that is set up, I don't see anything short of seasteads that can get the Galt's Gulch form of freedom some people are trying to achieve in NH. Yes its going to be expensive, and extremely inconvenient, but drastic situations call for drastic measures. If you're not up for such a major commitment, then fine, but you (not you specifically) shouldn't pronounce NH as a new haven of liberty just because its convenient and you want other people to move.

So yeah, to be emphatic, NH is fine as a personal choice, but as a project, the kind of deep evangelizing that goes on is extremely disingenuous, "Libertarians should move to NH for greater freedom!". There are lots of better options on the tables for total greater freedoms, NH doesn't even make the top 5, so I'll be happy to piss on Sams' and any other ardent NH liberty project proponents bonfire, if it means dissuading libertarians from wasting their time on questionable causes.
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blackie

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Re: Sam is a hero!
« Reply #46 on: May 13, 2009, 11:52:37 AM »

You can talk about having a "libertarian community", but we're talking about less than 500 active people
We are talking about 500 heroes.
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fatcat

  • Guest
Re: Sam is a hero!
« Reply #47 on: May 13, 2009, 12:15:22 PM »

You can talk about having a "libertarian community", but we're talking about less than 500 active people
We are talking about 500 heroes.

 :lol:
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Jetfire

  • Guest
Re: Sam is a hero!
« Reply #48 on: May 13, 2009, 12:17:58 PM »

I dont expect changes anytime soon I never said that. But I do expect change eventually. I dont see how things can just keep getting worse without people waking up. When things start to get more ludicrous and outrageous do you still think a large group of us spreading the ideas of liberty that people wont start to give it a second glance? Do you honestly think the group wont continue to grow over the years and start to have more and more impact? Are you that pessimistic to the whole situation that you can't see one single bit of good?


You can talk about having a "libertarian community", but we're talking about less than 500 active people
We are talking about 500 heroes.

 :lol:

If someones hero can be an actor or parent I dont see any difference for someone to consider sam there hero too.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2009, 12:22:32 PM by Dave »
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fatcat

  • Guest
Re: Sam is a hero!
« Reply #49 on: May 13, 2009, 12:40:24 PM »

I dont expect changes anytime soon I never said that. But I do expect change eventually. I dont see how things can just keep getting worse without people waking up. When things start to get more ludicrous and outrageous do you still think a large group of us spreading the ideas of liberty that people wont start to give it a second glance? Do you honestly think the group wont continue to grow over the years and start to have more and more impact? Are you that pessimistic to the whole situation that you can't see one single bit of good?

All the evidence shows that the US governments are getting worse every year in all terms of liberty,. There's absolutely no evidence or precedent to show that this is suddenly going to change.

I'm not pessimistic, I like to be optimistic, but I always try to be realistic, and thinking that suddenly after 100+ years of increasing government control and power, that 500 people are suddenly going to turn things around is disturbingly deluded. I'm optimistic about seasteading. Realistically its likely to fail, but its the most likely option for radical increases in freedom, and I'm happy to work at what has the best chances.

Maybe after massive government break down things will change, but I don't intend to live my life that way, waiting for some theoretical critical mass or breaking point to change my circumstances.

This kind of wishful thinking "something will turn up" "someday things will get better" is what really pisses me off about the NH lib movement. A complete, unfaltering commitment to avoiding uncomfortable reality whatever the cost.

As I've said during these arguments many times before, What do you think is a more effective poster child for the government being tyrannic? Nationwide coverage of a police shooting a handcuffed man, lying on the floor, in the head? Or tiny, regional coverage of some guy going on hunger strike because he says the government is illegitimate and refuses to do x/y/z?

Do you really think people care? Do you really think people vote on rational basis? The majority of people vote for who their parents voted for, and there hasn't been anyone but 2 parties in power for the last century. That's all you need to know to realize the system isn't going to change.

One of the most perturbing fallacies NH libers engage in is that somehow the political realm can be superseded. Voting gives government more money and power every year. Put your fingers in your ears, scream and shout, get yourself arrested, it doesn't change this.

Pretty much every democracy in the world is systematically biased towards increasing governments. When one party gets in, do they suddenly repeal every act the last party does? No, most of them are kept. Who gets elected more? Someone proposing increased government intervention, or someone proposing less or none?

What makes you think that the NH liberty crowd will grow faster than all the people who are still in favor of government? For whatever reasons, biological, social, environmental, libertarians are a minority populace. This has been the way for a very long time.

Now the FSP had some intelligent goals. Lets get as many libertarians in one place as possible, so we can actually effect a change. Except the numbers weren't enough, and the people who did sign up, were too emotionally invested to accept this as a problem, and now live out their days wasting their time in blissful optimistic generalities the same kind of shit you're saying.

The FSP has been in exponential decline for some time now. If the amount of people signing up per year has gone down from thousands to hundreds, what makes you think that this trend isn't going to continue?

What's a more rational expectation? That an organization that has not seen any concrete results, and has had an decreasingly smaller number of sign ups will continue to go that way, or that it will miraculously improve again some time in the future? Which expectation is realistic, and which one is more emotionally satisfying?
« Last Edit: May 13, 2009, 12:42:28 PM by fatcat »
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Jetfire

  • Guest
Re: Sam is a hero!
« Reply #50 on: May 13, 2009, 12:56:53 PM »

I guess I was hoping on a massive government breakdown or that things just get bad enough were people start to take a step back and look around. If things got bad enough I figured they'd start favoring liberty over government but maybe not. I don't believe that people vote on a rational basis and I agree that they most likely just vote who there parents voted. But when you start to lose so many freedoms I just really believe that everyone has a point where they will realize how ineffective there voting is. When there family members go to jail for something ridiculous or are unjustly injured/killed by a cop that maybe something isn't working here. You keep talking about seasteading but whose going to be able to afford that? You say thats its the most likely option for radical change but is likely to fail then what do you do besides what you can?
« Last Edit: May 13, 2009, 01:03:27 PM by Dave »
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Jetfire

  • Guest
Re: Sam is a hero!
« Reply #51 on: May 13, 2009, 01:23:18 PM »

Since everything fails guess there's only one thing left to do.....
































« Last Edit: May 13, 2009, 01:29:09 PM by Dave »
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fatcat

  • Guest
Re: Sam is a hero!
« Reply #52 on: May 13, 2009, 01:32:01 PM »

I guess I was hoping on a massive government breakdown or that things just get bad enough were people start to take a step back and look around. If things got bad enough I figured they'd start favoring liberty over government but maybe not. I don't believe that people vote on a rational basis and I agree that they most likely just vote who there parents voted. But when you start to lose so many freedoms I just really believe that everyone has a point where they will realize how ineffective there voting is. When there family members go to jail for something ridiculous or are unjustly injured/killed by a cop that maybe something isn't working here. You keep talking about seasteading but whose going to be able to afford that? You say thats its the most likely option for radical change but is likely to fail then what do you do besides what you can?

Maximizing your own personal freedom comes above any sort of grand projects in my mind.

Thats why I'm moving to Switzerland ASAP.

I get to own a gun where I couldn't before, I get to buy and sell drugs without persecution where i couldn't before, I get to pay for prostitution legally, I get the option to pay someone to kill me, and I pay about half as much tax as I currently do.

Is switzerland a liberty haven? Far from it. Tax is still around 20-40% depending on which canton you live in. Gun regulation is fairly mixed. You can own a assault rifle, but you can't carry a pistol around without a license.

Switzerland has national military training, although you can opt out of this, and as an immigrant I would not be expected to do any of it. This is poor in terms of liberty, but is somewhat offset by the fact Switzerland don't invade any other countries.

While in recent times drug laws have been improving (10 out of 16 cantons have decriminalized cannabis and sale of), I don't expect all drugs to be legalized any time soon, and it would not surprise me if there was a backlash against recent liberalization, the same goes for prostitution.

But, overall, I'll be in a lot better situation than I was.

The key difference is, I'm not moving in hopes of some great revolution, and I wouldn't mislead others by telling them to do the same in those hopes.

Quote
When there family members go to jail for something ridiculous or are unjustly injured/killed by a cop that maybe something isn't working here.

As I have mentioned many times before, this simply isn't a realistic expectation for change.

The gun isn't just in the room, its loaded, cocked, and being pointed at every day people. Ever recall the story about an old woman who was killed in a no knock raid by DEA, and it turned out the DEA had pressured someone into saying that the house was being used for drugs? What about the dozens of other cases of Average Joes, not young black men, being tazed, women being molested by police officers, all of it on film, and making no difference.

The vast majority of people either don't care enough to pay attention or think its okay. Thats why Civ Dis is a completely ridiculous method of trying to raise awareness for liberty. The government is doing 10 times a better job of showing how violent and illegitimate it is than people like Sam and Lauren Canario are doing, but it doesn't do shit to raise the number of libertarians.

Seasteading is perfectly affordable if you're willing to make the sacrifice. Of course, not for some 19 year old with a minimum wage job, but they can't do much anything.

Anyone with a house and a car can afford to seastead. Of course, an average guy could not afford to build a seastead, but he could easily afford to rent housing there. Cost is not the main barrier for seasteading, its about whether A) governments will leave them alone, and B) whether they'll function properly as microcosm.

I highly recommend reading  the Seasteading Institutes research paper on Seasteading.

Seasteading Conference video

It covers everything from how to deal with barnacles and wave damage, to how the market within the seastead may function, to how we get from here to there. Reading this gives you a feel for how much more practical and well thought out this project is compared to failed projects of the past
« Last Edit: May 13, 2009, 01:33:56 PM by fatcat »
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Jetfire

  • Guest
Re: Sam is a hero!
« Reply #53 on: May 13, 2009, 01:48:38 PM »

switzerland sounds pretty nice comparatively. Guess all I gotta do is learn some other language now.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2009, 01:50:49 PM by Dave »
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Bill Brasky

  • Guest
Re: Sam is a hero!
« Reply #54 on: May 13, 2009, 03:13:48 PM »

switzerland sounds pretty nice comparatively. Guess all I gotta do is learn some other language now.

Its cold. 

Its very possible I may end up there, and I hate the fuckin' cold. 



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blackie

  • Guest
Re: Sam is a hero!
« Reply #55 on: May 13, 2009, 03:16:49 PM »

I wish Switzerland had a coastline.
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fatcat

  • Guest
Re: Sam is a hero!
« Reply #56 on: May 13, 2009, 03:58:00 PM »

switzerland sounds pretty nice comparatively. Guess all I gotta do is learn some other language now.

well, Switzerland already has4 different languages, so pretty much everyone speaks english as an auxilliary.

Also, if you're looking to check out Switzerland, I recommend going to Cannatrade, which is essentially the swiss version of the cannabis cup, but with much less touristy shit, and it doesn't have the shitty 30 gram carrying limit that holland does.
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BonerJoe

  • Guest
Re: Sam is a hero!
« Reply #57 on: May 13, 2009, 04:04:44 PM »

ZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUG
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Riddler

  • Guest
Re: Sam is a hero!
« Reply #58 on: May 13, 2009, 07:33:20 PM »


Its cold. 

Its very possible I may end up there, and I hate the fuckin' cold. 


dude.
with all the jingle you be savin' by switchin' to swissco, you can afford to ''winter'' in sicily....or greece...the amalfi coast, offa italy, is-a nice
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Bill Brasky

  • Guest
Re: Sam is a hero!
« Reply #59 on: May 13, 2009, 07:36:32 PM »

ZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUGZUG

Gotta admit, its got a cool sound to it.

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