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Author Topic: Racism  (Read 37133 times)

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Riddler

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Re: Racism
« Reply #30 on: August 09, 2011, 01:38:51 PM »

The wage discrepancy between short and tall is bigger than that of black and white or male and female.

Thrice in my life someone has prefaced an observation of my size with "no offense". Which never fails to shock and insult me. (why would someone expect that could be more offensive than observing that my shirt is red?  What must that person think to cause him to say "no offense")
 
Do you know why I'm not going on about how height is an illusion?  Cuz I'm not a fucking moron that's why.

Short people have been second class citizens in every culture in the history of the world.  Count the short litigators/politicians/salsmen.  We get no respect, our words don't carry the same weight.  If I were to set out to change it (which I'm not). The words people use would be farthest from my mind.  But....  In the future, if you insist on sticking to this race doesn't exist bullshit, I would prefer you call me differently statutes to prevent the stink of thousands of years of oppression following that word "short".  You know that's what people say when they can't afford to feed themselves...  "I'm a little short" they say.

Short does not exist cuz what some people think when referring to short is inconvenient for me.




quiet down, midget.......& fetch me a cold drink
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John Shaw

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Re: Racism
« Reply #31 on: August 09, 2011, 01:42:51 PM »

Stuff

YOU FUCKING SAXON SHUT THE FUCK UP WITH YOUR LONG THIN NOSE ADAPTED FOR COLDER CLIMATES AND YOUR WHITE FUCKING SKIN THAT CAN'T HANDLE A LITTLE SUN.

FUCK YYYOOOOOOUUUUUU HACKY SACKY SAXON LONGSHANKS BOW PLUCKER ELF QUEEN.
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MacFall

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Re: Racism
« Reply #32 on: August 09, 2011, 01:49:35 PM »

wAIT a fucking minute....  You can't use that word "racist". It comes from race.  What the fuck are you gonna call a racist now?

That's a huge non sequitur. Denying the validity of a concept does not mean that one cannot use it within the context of people who believe in it.

Do you think that people who don't believe in God should not refer to people who do as "theists"?

As for your attempt at analogizing between race and stature - people are, objectively, shorter or taller than other people. People are also, objectively, darker or lighter skinned than other people. If short people tend to be worse at math (which I just came up with off the top of my head as an example; I have no idea if it's statistically true or not), most people would consider it absurd to posit that the same biological trait which causes their shortness also causes their relative mathematical ineptitude.

So why should it not be just as absurd to conflate correlation and causality when it comes to skin color and, say, intelligence? Considering that when you put members of the same race in different social and cultural environments their relative intelligence differs widely, does it not make more sense to take the position that it is culture, rather than genetic heritage, which causes intellectual disparities between peoples?

For example, equatorial climates lead to a condition in which less ingenuity is required for people to survive. As a result, the emerging culture will value ingenuity less highly than, say, people who live in a tundra. But if, after many generations, you put an equatorial people into a tundra, you will immediately see latent intellectual capacity begin to emerge. Likewise if you put Steppe peoples into an idyllic tropical paradise, you will see a culture emerge where less emphasis is placed on inventiveness and cunning than that which had previously existed.

Equatorial climates also produce darker skin pigmentation, so you tend to find that people with darker skin colors have cultures which value intellect less highly than other people. That's a correlation. It is not a causal relationship. It is not evident at all that the same genetic history which produced the dark skin also produced the values system of the culture. In fact, what caused BOTH the culture and the biology to exist is the Sun's effect on the environment where they lived. The effects share a common cause; their relationship to one another is parallel - purely correlative.

The theory of race does far more than acknowledge the objective physical differences between different peoples (in fact it cannot properly acknowledge those difference in the first place, since racial theory makes qualitative statements, and those differences are quantitative rather than qualitative). It attempts to explain cultural differences by ignoring testable environmental explanations in favor of biological ones which are, at this point in time, untestable.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2011, 03:00:30 PM by MacFall »
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Ecolitan

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Re: Racism
« Reply #33 on: August 09, 2011, 02:03:32 PM »

I'd threaten to be upset dragline but I know that you know little people just get cuter when they're pissed off

Why are plumbers so large?  Always with the tin.y spaces.  It amuses me.  My plumber is 6'6".  I WILL NOT crawl for him...  I hate that tiny space shit.

and macfall, you still haven't given. Single real price of evidence involving the real literal meaning of race and also haven't come up with a different word.  Pretending it doesn't exist is stupid.  Maybe we should make the new word...




























































Voldemort:  I'm more likely to develop sickle cell anemia because of my Voldemort.
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Ecolitan

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Re: Racism
« Reply #34 on: August 09, 2011, 02:07:27 PM »

I think macfall you must feel very guilty about being racist to take the stance you do.  The rest of us can speak as Englishmen.










































Oh shit was that a culturalist or a racial remark?  I'm a fucking bigot and must kill myself now.
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John Shaw

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Re: Racism
« Reply #35 on: August 09, 2011, 02:14:55 PM »

The rest of us can speak as Englishmen.

I FUCKING KNEW IT.

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anarchir

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Re: Racism
« Reply #36 on: August 09, 2011, 02:19:46 PM »

The wage discrepancy between short and tall is bigger than that of black and white or male and female.

Thrice in my life someone has prefaced an observation of my size with "no offense". Which never fails to shock and insult me. (why would someone expect that could be more offensive than observing that my shirt is red?  What must that person think to cause him to say "no offense")
 
Do you know why I'm not going on about how height is an illusion?  Cuz I'm not a fucking moron that's why.

Short people have been second class citizens in every culture in the history of the world.  Count the short litigators/politicians/salsmen.  We get no respect, our words don't carry the same weight.  If I were to set out to change it (which I'm not). The words people use would be farthest from my mind.  But....  In the future, if you insist on sticking to this race doesn't exist bullshit, I would prefer you call me differently statutes to prevent the stink of thousands of years of oppression following that word "short".  You know that's what people say when they can't afford to feed themselves...  "I'm a little short" they say.

Short does not exist cuz what some people think when referring to short is inconvenient for me.



I was short until after high school. Working at a grocery store the customers would constantly comment on my stature. I'm still skinny and people still comment on my size/weight even though I'm now 6 foot.  If I were to comment on a fat persons weight it would be the ultimate insult, but telling me I need some "meat on your bones" or that I'll blow away in the wind, etc etc. ... its somehow different?
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Ecolitan

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Re: Racism
« Reply #37 on: August 09, 2011, 03:18:02 PM »

The rest of us can speak as Englishmen.

I FUCKING KNEW IT.



Welsh, mostly, or partly, and Scotch, and Irish, My momma tells me I'm from one of the lost tribes of Israel but I don't think she can prove it.  She also doesn't understand why all national boundaries can't stay exactly as they are til the end of time...  I don't really believe anything she "thinks" after that.  Also my family has for the last several years been getting the free injun moneys cuz someone found some Choctaw somewhere.  So now I have to get the fuck off my land and I'm having the greatest difficulty accomplishing that.  Apparently I am completely Sooner born and Sooner bred.  (cuz of the land run for those that don't know.  White people gave OK to Injuns (well they're not from India so why not spell it phonetically?) then stole it but with rules and some people broke the rules and came "sooner" and they ended up running things and shtooping Injuns...  That's where I come from.  


Yes Anarchir it's different in that it's acceptable to think little people are less (pun intended).  It's ok to communicate pity for them and other such things for the terrible hardship our low caloric requirements bring us.  Do you know I have to scoot almost every vehicle seat I get in forward? It's harrowing.

Personally I find being 5'6" and 150 (when I'm in good shape) is exactly perfect for drawing in girls that are 5'0" and 105 which is exactly how I likem (and how I know that little people really do get cuter when they're angry).  I am very glad that, because of my size, they always notice me.

OMG I just acknowledged a preference for people who look like me with similar backgrounds and life experiences that I can relate to.  I must immediately change the words I use to pretend as if these thoughts aren't always present in my mind like every other individual in the history of the motherfucking world.

So what does it mean that I feel a special affinity for the many mexicans around here?  Well, I work for cash and don't file taxes, I'm shorter than most of most everyone I meet wants to put me in a cage.  Many people in my socio-economic group are varying degrees of petty criminals so people like Dio tend to judge us all by our appearance and try to make us feel bad for existing.  Last year I grew peppers where most people put flowers, this year my mexi-neighbor has peppers where last year he had flowers. my plumber affectionately calls me "his mexican".   I fucking love me some mexicans, their are many things about their culture I would like to see more in "my" culture.  Does that make me a racist?  Cuz I acknowledge differences?  Is that a racist or a culturalist?  Who fucking cares?  DIVERSITY EXISTS!  I fucking know that.



A THAT, Macfall, is how you have an open, honest discussion about race that promotes greater understanding among individuals.  NOT by pretending it doesn't fucking exist.  So now that you have some idea of what I think about when I think about race I'm gonna drop the bomb that really pisses you PC freaks the fuck off.

I see no reason whatsoever that if groups of people can share the same genetic characteristics that effect physical traits they can't also possess the same genetic characteristics that effect brain function and chemistry.  I don't know that they do... but I don't know that they don't either and I'm pretty sure anyone currently alive that tells you he DOES know is a fucking liar.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2011, 03:54:19 PM by Ecolitan »
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MacFall

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Re: Racism
« Reply #38 on: August 09, 2011, 04:05:46 PM »

I'm not pretending anything. Race, as a matter of objective fact, DOES NOT EXIST. If it did, then you could show me one and distinguish it from another. But you can't take any two individuals and point to any attribute or set of attributes that qualify them as being members of different races. There is no definitive break in the genetic history of the human race by which such a distinction can be established, so you're limited to referencing specific attributes. You can try with skin color, but I can show you "white people" with darker skin than "black people". You can try with bone structure, but I can show you a vast variety of bone structures within the so-called Negroid or Mongoloid "races" that cross over into each other and into Caucasoid territory. You can try with culture, but I can show you example upon example of people with the same genetic heritage who develop different cultures according to their environments. Race is a fantasy. It is a long-discredited social theory only of use to collectivists. And when individualists accept and use the concept, they only undermine themselves.
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Cognitive Dissident

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Re: Racism
« Reply #39 on: August 09, 2011, 05:38:55 PM »

Oh, right - I couldn't possibly have done any research or anything like that. I disagree with you, so I must be making stuff up.  :roll:

Sorry, but you can't just willy-nilly disregard the origin of the term. Once people referred to "the human race" as being distinct from animals. When early sociologists started referring to other "races" they used the term deliberately to call to mind just as great a distinction. The Mongoloids and Negroids were supposed to be something other than and inferior to Caucasoids, and "other human beings" just doesn't carry the same weight as saying that they are of a different race - something greater than mere animals, but not like "us" at all. It was debated whether members of other races had souls (because if they did, then slavery was unjust) and notable abolitionists, especially among Catholic missionaries, argued against the use of the term "race" at all precisely because it implied that they did not. Unfortunately, most of them were willing to extend that principle only to Mongoloids (which included native Americans), and largely agreed with the racial sociologists that Negroids were, in fact, of a different race, distinguishable from animals only by their (in the belief of that time, marginally) greater intelligence and therefore less than human. There was even a pre-Darwinian theory of evolution which posited that Negroids evolved from apes whereas Caucasoids and Mongoloids were created beings.

And it's not as if people, after learning more about human biology, suddenly realized they had been wrong and stopped using the term in its original sense. It was insinuated into the debates about slavery as recently as the American civil war. Pro-slavery people (including none other than Abraham Lincoln himself) referred to the burden of "the superior race", which was fully human, to subjugate "the inferior race", which was not fully human, for their own good. And today modern politicians use the term to refer to classes of people with inherently different abilities to care for themselves: the black "race" is a disadvantaged class, and would continue to be in their terminology a "social minority" even if there were more blacks in society than whites.

Of course if you want to, you can go on using the word "race" however you want. You can also call yourself a bag of turnips and say that 2+2=dog for all I care. You'll be wrong in all those cases, but you can. Nobody's stopping you.

If you're going to get pedantic:

Definition of race (from Merriam Webster's web site, m-w.com)

1
: a breeding stock of animals
2
a : a family, tribe, people, or nation belonging to the same stock
b : a class or kind of people unified by shared interests, habits, or characteristics
3
a : an actually or potentially interbreeding group within a species; also : a taxonomic category (as a subspecies) representing such a group
b : breed
c : a category of humankind that shares certain distinctive physical traits

4
obsolete : inherited temperament or disposition
5
: distinctive flavor, taste, or strength
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Riddler

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Re: Racism
« Reply #40 on: August 09, 2011, 05:39:53 PM »

Stuff

YOU FUCKING SAXON SHUT THE FUCK UP WITH YOUR LONG THIN NOSE ADAPTED FOR COLDER CLIMATES AND YOUR WHITE FUCKING SKIN THAT CAN'T HANDLE A LITTLE SUN.

FUCK YYYOOOOOOUUUUUU HACKY SACKY SAXON LONGSHANKS BOW PLUCKER ELF QUEEN.

say wat motherfucker?
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MacFall

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Re: Racism
« Reply #41 on: August 09, 2011, 05:59:27 PM »

The dictionary definition doesn't provide any identifiable traits by which to objectively qualify a race. That's because it can't, and that's because there aren't any. For any of those definitions, there can exist no clear delineation between members of one supposed race and another.

a: all humans are "of the same stock" because we share a common ancestor. There is no single point of divergence by which a separate stock can be identified, all points of divergence being equally valid.
b: this definition backs up my point that race is a sociological concept. But again, there is no objective way to qualify which interests, habits, or characteristics must be shared in order to constitute a race. There is also no point at which such distinctions can stop being made. By this definition, you run into different "races" every time you travel to a different neighborhood.
3: And by this definition, the entire human species constitutes a single race (which is the position I take), and at the same time, there is a different "race" for about every 50 households. Contradictory definitions are meaningless.
c: this definition requires that such "distinctive physical traits" be identified. The progenitors of the concept tried to do that with facial bone structure, but after they were discredited, nobody has attempted to do so again.

Perhaps Ecolitan, if he cares so much about the word, can attempt to describe which "distinctive physical traits" exist which can credibly be causally linked with universal tendencies towards any particular non-physical trait.
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hellbilly

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Re: Racism
« Reply #42 on: August 09, 2011, 07:07:26 PM »

If there are no races, then there can be no racists.

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Re: Racism
« Reply #43 on: August 09, 2011, 08:07:08 PM »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdtQfibyF68

[youtube]FdtQfibyF68[/youtube]
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Ecolitan

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Re: Racism
« Reply #44 on: August 09, 2011, 08:20:52 PM »

Quote
DOES NOT EXIST. If it did, then you could show me one and distinguish it from another.

I can.  Of course the vast majority of us have a lot of different races in us but you can tell what is predominant.  Usually I can tell Semitic people from Caucasians but never persians/arabs/jews.  So far as I'm concerned they are just "the semitic races" which I know is a reference to their common writing and not DNA but you can tell them by looking at them.  Also Asian (Mongoloid if I wanted to piss you off more) from African is a cinch.  Nope, can't do it every time but by far often enough to know there are overwhelmingly common characteristics in all these... groups of... biologi...... geographically ti....... Fucking RACES goddamnit!   It's the only word that means what that word means.

In order to show you I typed Asian into google.  Now I'm sidetracked.  Looks like google has a pretty good idea of what they think Asians should look like, I highly recommend seeing for yourself.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2011, 08:23:31 PM by Ecolitan »
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