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Author Topic: Racism  (Read 39387 times)

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MacFall

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Re: Racism
« Reply #60 on: August 09, 2011, 10:57:09 PM »

Point taken. Here's a better analogy: everyone knows constellations exist, but some people believe that they cause things to happen here on earth. If I were to say "astrology is false" that would not mean there can be no astrologists.

constellations : astrology :: physical differences between peoples : racism
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Ecolitan

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Re: Racism
« Reply #61 on: August 09, 2011, 11:50:36 PM »

Intellect and culture have to do with individual choices. Unless you are arguing from a completely deterministic perspective, those are not physical traits.

Unless you're arguing the existence of a soul the brain is a physical organ that determines our thoughts and actions through gazillions of electrical impulses and chemical reactions.  

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How about "body type" to describe what somebody's freaking body looks like?

And I've already shown in a previous post how culture (caused by physical environment) is a far more likely explanation for behavior than biology. But you can go on clinging to your ancient collectivist fallacies if you want.

Because 1: "body type" is not something that I relate with racial tendencies.  Example, there are 5'0" 105lb black girls and also ginourmous ones.

2:  Because the whole point of assigning a race to someone is sometimes so you don't have to describe him in complete detail.  If I say something about my mexican neighbor and you assume that is the short guy with peppers in his front yard that washes his car far too often you'd be absolutely correct.  It's a lot easier to just say mexican.

Did I mention they have parties where almost everyone drives a shiny as fuck 20 year old pickup and they park all over the lawn.  Mexican....  can't define it physically or non-physically but I fucking know it when I see it.  I got about a gazillion dolloars that says they're catholic.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2011, 12:03:50 AM by Ecolitan »
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Ecolitan

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Re: Racism
« Reply #62 on: August 10, 2011, 12:08:40 AM »

Point taken. Here's a better analogy: everyone knows constellations exist, but some people believe that they cause things to happen here on earth. If I were to say "astrology is false" that would not mean there can be no astrologists.

constellations : astrology :: physical differences between peoples : racism

I think you say this because you don't want to be a racist.  You see all these characteristics between all these groups and you don't want to be racist so you invent this fiction that race never existed in the first place, that people might inherit genetic differences that change skin pigmentation but NEVER that could change thought or behavior because then you'd have to be the R word.  That's the dogmatic part of your retarded.  Nothing could ever be true that would mean you're a racist cuz you're just not.  

You can't prove shit.  You have no idea what genetic differences between races do that we haven't discovered.  Sickle cell anemia, nappy hair, curry smell from the pores, a predisposition for watermelon?  You don't fucking know.  No one does.

I like the watermelon one.  If people can inherit genetic traits can they effect the physical makeup of taste buds and the part of the brain that does some kind of thing involved with that to make the entirely random effect of making watermelon taste fucking awesome?  You don't fucking know and neither does anyone else in the whole world.  Anyone who says they do is a fool or a liar.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2011, 12:12:09 AM by Ecolitan »
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John Shaw

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Re: Racism
« Reply #63 on: August 10, 2011, 12:09:26 AM »

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Ecolitan

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Re: Racism
« Reply #64 on: August 10, 2011, 12:12:24 AM »

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John Shaw

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Re: Racism
« Reply #65 on: August 10, 2011, 12:14:12 AM »

All further replies from me in this thread will be in the form of animated gifs.

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MacFall

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Re: Racism
« Reply #66 on: August 10, 2011, 12:26:02 AM »

Intellect and culture have to do with individual choices. Unless you are arguing from a completely deterministic perspective, those are not physical traits.

Unless you're arguing the existence of a soul the brain is a physical organ that determines our thoughts and actions through gazillions of electrical impulses and chemical reactions.

You can call it a soul or not, but if all of our actions are the results of biochemical reactions, then there is no such thing as choice or free will at all. It is impossible to take a non-deterministic position without some sort of dualistic view of the human mind. Personally, I've never heard a completely naturalistic explanation for choice which makes any sense to me, which is why I am a theist. But there are are plenty of people who have tried to come up with one.

If this is going to be a free will vs. determinism discussion, I'm out. Either we have free choice - in which case, biological tendencies towards specific behaviors can be overcome by the human mind; or we don't, in which case it is only the fundamental forces of the Universe which are causing us to take our respective positions, and debate is just about the stupidest thing I can imagine doing with my time. Or, be fooled into thinking I am imagining, anyway.

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Because 1: "body type" is not something that I relate with racial tendencies.  Example, there are 5'0" 105lb black girls and also ginourmous ones.

But if you say someone has an "Asian body type" people will know what you mean. "Asian" works just fine as a categorical description without making any reference at all to the idea of race.

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2:  Because the whole point of assigning a race to someone is sometimes so you don't have to describe him in complete detail.  If I say something about my mexican neighbor and you assume that is the short guy with peppers in his front yard that washes his car far too often you'd be absolutely correct.  It's a lot easier to just say mexican.

Did I mention they have parties where almost everyone drives a shiny as fuck 20 year old pickup and they park all over the lawn.  Mexican....  can't define it physically or non-physically but I fucking know it when I see it.  I got about a gazillion dolloars that says they're catholic.

Okay, now you're describing culture, which again works as a categorical descriptor, but which has nothing to do with race at all, unless you are also saying that that culture has biological (as opposed to environmental) causes.

Also, there is a big difference between looking at the easily discernible qualities of an individual person and inferring the likelihood of their having a particular culture or nationality, and taking an individual about whom you know nothing except their culture or nationality and making assumptions about other things which are not evident, which is fallacious.

The difference is between class probability and case probability. It may be a fair statement to say "Asians are more likely than Italians to be bad drivers" (a statement about class probability), but it is not fair to take an individual from each group and say of them, individually, that the Asian is more likely to be the worse driver of the two (a statement about case probability). In the individual case, the statement is either true or false, not "more likely" or "less likely" to be true: and if you say one way or the other without actually examining the individual persons you are just making assumptions.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2011, 12:29:04 AM by MacFall »
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Ecolitan

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Re: Racism
« Reply #67 on: August 10, 2011, 12:30:48 AM »

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You can call it a soul or not, but if all of our actions are the results of biochemical reactions, then there is no such thing as choice or free will at all.

Now we get to the meat of it.  All SOULS (or whatever the fuck you want to call it) are the same when detached from their bodies.  Ok sure, whatever if that makes you happy but don't ask me to agree with any of that shit you have no evidence whatsoever for.


So can biochemical reactions be subject to genetics?

Ok so I read more of your ridiculousness
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biological tendencies towards specific behaviors can be overcome by the human mind;

No....  we can never ever agree definitively that the human mind is anything but the human brain until you can prove otherwise.  It's interesting to me that you suggested there could be biological tendencies that would have to be overcome by the human mind.  HAHA YOU"RE A RACIST
« Last Edit: August 10, 2011, 12:34:57 AM by Ecolitan »
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MacFall

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Re: Racism
« Reply #68 on: August 10, 2011, 12:49:18 AM »

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Now we get to the meat of it.  All SOULS (or whatever the fuck you want to call it) are the same when detached from their bodies.  Ok sure, whatever if that makes you happy but don't ask me to agree with any of that shit you have no evidence whatsoever for.

So you are a determinist, then?

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No....  we can never ever agree definitively that the human mind is anything but the human brain until you can prove otherwise.  It's interesting to me that you suggested there could be biological tendencies that would have to be overcome by the human mind.  HAHA YOU"RE A RACIST

I suspect you are deliberately misunderstanding my position at this point. The fact that you keep quoting me out of context and not addressing some rather important points I am making certainly doesn't indicate otherwise. I never once said that biological tendencies did not exist. I have only said that environment is more likely to effect certain behaviors than biology. Nurture rather than nature, in other words.

Furthermore, if biological tendencies towards certain behaviors do exist, but can be overcome, then they are NOT causal factors behind culture and society, and since race posits that they ARE, then someone who believes in the supremacy of mind over matter, so to speak, cannot be a racist.

But there is no proof that biology is the cause of any behavior. There is only a theory of nature over nurture - a theory just as unproven as its opposite. But as I previously demonstrated (and which you have yet even to challenge, much less refute) it is more likely that culture and biology are parallel effects of the same cause (environment), and that culture effects behavioral traits far more than biology does.

So ultimately, it gets down to whether or not people can choose (and hence be responsible for) their actions. Apparently, you say not. In which case, what's the point of arguing? It's not as if either of us chose our positions. It's just our respective genes that are making us take them, and essentially fooling us into thinking that we had anything whatsoever to do with it.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2011, 12:53:28 AM by MacFall »
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Riddler

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Re: Racism
« Reply #69 on: August 10, 2011, 07:08:06 AM »

If there are no races, then there can be no racists.

Viola!






......and then some people around here can start apologizing for the witchhunt
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Ecolitan

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Re: Racism
« Reply #70 on: August 10, 2011, 09:48:57 AM »

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Now we get to the meat of it.  All SOULS (or whatever the fuck you want to call it) are the same when detached from their bodies.  Ok sure, whatever if that makes you happy but don't ask me to agree with any of that shit you have no evidence whatsoever for.

So you are a determinist, then?


Did you just learn that word?  Don't label me motherfucker.

I said I don't fucking know and neither do you.  I sure as hell am not going to have a discussion about race and genetics that requires we take a human soul as a given.  Then we're not talking about What IS but What IF.  


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I have only said that environment is more likely to effect certain behaviors than biology.

More likely....  More fucking likely?  How can you use language like that but not admit, you don't know.  And if you don't know than why would you take any firm position other than "I don't know"  cuz motherfucker.... You don't know.  


So can biochemical reactions be subject to genetics?


Let me tell you a true story about my father in law.  He was a prick, he had a stroke, now he's a swell motherfucker.  Did that stroke effect his eternal soul?   Doubtful.  It changed his brain in a physical way and it effected some very fundamental things about his thought process and resulting behavior.  He is a different person.


So can biochemical reactions be subject to genetics?


So can biochemical reactions be subject to genetics?


So can biochemical reactions be subject to genetics?


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if biological tendencies towards certain behaviors do exist

So....  you admit here that biological tendencies towards certain behaviors might exist.  You mean you don't know?  Why...  If you think biological tendencies might exist and agree that biological tendencies would be, if they exist, caused by genetics, would you EVER some around here talking about RACE DOES NOT EXIST and I'm so fucking sure of it I'm gonna run around telling people to stop using that word for any purpose whatsoever when you know that you don't fucking know.

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I suspect you are deliberately misunderstanding my position at this point. The fact that you keep quoting me out of context and not addressing some rather important points I am making certainly doesn't indicate otherwise.

That haha you're a racist bit was deliberate trolling yes.  You're points are about sociology (not a science) and the human mind (not a physical brain that can be observed with eyeballs and instruments).  Which have absolutely no bearing whatsoever on the question....    Can genetics affect behavior?  That's the ultimate disagreement here.  It useless to point out that OTHER things can ALSO effect behavior.  We can take that as a given and move on to Can genetics affect behavior? 

You don't answer my important questions either.

So can biochemical reactions be subject to genetics?


So can biochemical reactions be subject to genetics?


So can biochemical reactions be subject to genetics?
« Last Edit: August 10, 2011, 10:09:29 AM by Ecolitan »
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Ecolitan

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Re: Racism
« Reply #71 on: August 10, 2011, 10:23:47 AM »

I mean fucking really dude..........

How can you go on about how the brain causing thoughts and behaviors is "just a theory" that you won't accept because it's just a theory and then expect me to just go along with the idea that it's really some invisible thing that no one has ever proven exists at all but THAT....  THAT we're supposed to just assume as fact and apply it to the discussion.  

WTF?!?   Are you a Baptist?  You act like a fucking Baptist.

If your mind is not the brain assumption is also, just a theory then......  You don't fucking know!  Why is it so hard to get a human being to admit he does not know?  Half the people in the world you can't believe a damn thing they say because they will not under any circumstances admit that they just don't fucking know.  You don't know dude.... no one does.  And unless you can recognize that you don't know something, you don't know shit about anything.  Learn to admit you don't know.  AND   Get the fuck out of people's threads telling them what words they can use and what they can't when YOU DON"T KNOW.  Neither do I...  Nothing shameful about not knowing.  All kinds of shameful about thinking that you do.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2011, 10:29:56 AM by Ecolitan »
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MacFall

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Re: Racism
« Reply #72 on: August 10, 2011, 11:37:03 AM »

So you are a determinist, then?
Did you just learn that word?  Don't label me motherfucker.

I didn't label you. I asked you a question. Your reaction was irrational and juvenile. That's telling, as well as amusing.

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I said I don't fucking know and neither do you.  I sure as hell am not going to have a discussion about race and genetics that requires we take a human soul as a given.  Then we're not talking about What IS but What IF.

Of course we don't know. It's a matter of belief. Nor does this discussion require that we take such a thing as a given - but you have to take either one side or the other. Either take a monist position on the human mind, in which case there is no such thing as free choice (which is the only position that can consistently be taken by someone arguing for biological causality), or take a dualist position, which makes biology subordinate to the mind, and opens biological causality to question.

You've effectively already taken the former position. I'm just asking you to admit it.

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More likely....  More fucking likely?  How can you use language like that but not admit, you don't know.  And if you don't know than why would you take any firm position other than "I don't know"  cuz motherfucker.... You don't know.

Wow, you're really desperate to keep your strawman erect here, aren't you? I NEVER said I knew. I only said that environment was a more likely cause than biology. But of course it's so hard to address my actual argument, isn't it?

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So can biochemical reactions be subject to genetics?

Edited out your stuttering.

I already said they could, and if you were even the slightest bit interested in addressing my points you would have maybe quoted one of the times that I did so and addressed the argument I am actually making instead of deliberately misunderstanding me. But the latter is far more convenient, and race does seem to be a theory for the intellectually lazy, so I'm not surprised.

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So....  you admit here that biological tendencies towards certain behaviors might exist.  You mean you don't know?  Why...  If you think biological tendencies might exist and agree that biological tendencies would be, if they exist, caused by genetics, would you EVER some around here talking about RACE DOES NOT EXIST and I'm so fucking sure of it I'm gonna run around telling people to stop using that word for any purpose whatsoever when you know that you don't fucking know.

Trying to parse your childishly emotional tirade here... and I THINK you're saying that admitting that biological tendencies towards certain behaviors exist is an admission that race exists.

It's not. As I have been saying all along, the theory of race asserts biological tendencies towards certain behaviors as the cause of cultural differences between peoples, whereas I have been maintaining that physical and cultural differences between peoples are parallel effects of environmental causes. And if you weren't so busy clinging to your misrepresentation of my argument, you might have noticed the fact.

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I suspect you are deliberately misunderstanding my position at this point. The fact that you keep quoting me out of context and not addressing some rather important points I am making certainly doesn't indicate otherwise.

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Can genetics affect behavior?  That's the ultimate disagreement here.

No it isn't. I have never claimed it hasn't. I have only claimed that (1) genetic causes for individual behavior do not, by themselves, constitute a theory of race, and (2) that genetic causes for behavior are less likely to effect things like evident intelligence and culture than environmental causes.

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You don't answer my important questions either.

Which one? You mean the one that you're asking for the first time here about genetics affecting behavior, which after re-reading all of my posts I can definitively say I have never claimed to be false?
« Last Edit: August 10, 2011, 11:47:32 AM by MacFall »
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Ecolitan

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Re: Racism
« Reply #73 on: August 10, 2011, 11:58:28 AM »

too hard to quote on the phone..  My reaction was not juvenile....  It was funny.
on a deeper level it was an explanation that it doesn't matter if I believe in a soul.  It is not relevant to the conversation.  Whether I believe all actions are irrevocably set by biology is not relevanrelevantt.  All that matters is can biology have an influence?  So....  Don't label me motherfucker...  Did you just learn that word?  Maybe it's not as simple as that



And...   ohhhh. We're talking about belief then.  You're gonna come around telling people what words they can use because you.....believe.... It is that way in your metaphysical way.

Nothing more to say.  You have a religious belief that biology doesn't affect behavior.....  Well I i knew that.  That's why I used the word dogma in relation to your retardedeness.  I don't share that religious belief and see no reason to change MY vocabulary to suit YOUR voodoo.  I think is indefensibly arrogant of you to jump in to this thread telling people what words they can use basd o what boil down to the tenets of your faith.  And... You're a fucking moron.

I'm told I sounded angry in this mornings posts.  This isn't me angry, for the record.
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Ecolitan

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Re: Racism
« Reply #74 on: August 10, 2011, 12:03:49 PM »

If you had originally come and stated your metaphysical belief that people are more than the human body and that invisible part is without race...  I would have been inclined to agree.

I also would have said it has no effect whatsoever on the biological argument.  That even if that were proven conclusively it does not mean that to some people watermelon doesn't just taste better.  I hate tomatoes.
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