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Author Topic: Racism  (Read 36288 times)

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Diogenes The Cynic

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Re: Racism
« Reply #15 on: August 08, 2011, 11:03:51 PM »

I was under the impression you were referring to my impatience with dios jewiness (it's more than that) with your first post.  You might have noticed I don't bring it up when he doesn't.  Also, you might have noticed I was well into Dio hating when you made your account and therefore have no idea how it all started.  That motherfucker would not treat me well if we were to meet as strangers on most days.  He has said in no uncertain terms how much he is offended by people who possess traits that I possess and objects to their very existence.  He denies that now or at least pretends to have no clue what I'm talking about but he hasn't retracted a damn thing (a step necessary in apologies and forgiveness) so I'm forced to assume his self-righteous holier than thou bullshit still stands and will continue to react harshly when he chooses to remind me.  Yes, I am unusually sensitive.

.
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MacFall

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Re: Racism
« Reply #16 on: August 08, 2011, 11:35:08 PM »

"Race" does not exist. It is an unscientific concept invented by a bunch of proto-Commie sociologists who lacked a good theory to explain economic and social differences between people who had different skin colors and bone structures.

To talk of significant genetic differences between "races" effecting differing levels of intelligence, athletic ability, intellect, and the like is fallacious, because there is just as much variation between members of the same race as there is between members of different races; and also because there are no sharp lines distinguishing the so-called "races".

It can be fair to make a few presumptions based on the physical appearance or cultural origin of a person, but it is not okay to make assumptions (where a presumption is only  a convenient working hypothesis, known likely to be proven false by additional knowledge, whereas an assumption is a belief held without regard to evidence whatsoever). And generalizations are always wrong, and also inconvenient because even if they're "mostly true" you always have to revise them later on. I think it's best not to take such a position in the first place and refrain from making judgments until you actually know something about the case.

On the other hand, I'm with those in this thread who object to the political correctness of some liberty people towards the issue. I do worry about the potential for a community to ostracize others over an opinion on which one does not intend to act. E.g., if someone has been deeply indoctrinated to hate black people, but despite that has no intent to do harm to a black person, then ostracizing them will accomplish nothing but to fuel their hatred. People don't learn without being around other people who are different from them. This hair-trigger ostracism reaction that I see threatening to emerge in the liberty community will only serve to compartmentalize problems, and will not provide any real solutions.

I understand that FTL and the FSP want to distance themselves from any possibility of being accused of racism or other forms of bigotry, but you don't need to shout down anyone who says anything that could possibly, in the broadest of interpretations be considered bigotry to do that. All you need to do is disagree.
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Cognitive Dissident

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Re: Racism
« Reply #17 on: August 08, 2011, 11:41:31 PM »

Obviously, sickle cell anemia does not exist, and British did not learn to use quinine to avoid malaria, because, you know, all cultures are genetically identical.

 :roll:

The truth is obviously somewhere between the extreme deniers of differences and the people who think everyone with skin that's a shade different from theirs is subhuman.


As for "hair trigger ostracism," I'd say any pussy who's afraid of being criticized for having an insensitive view of others is going to do poorly in a truly free society, where harsh criticism will probably be freely distributed (and will be far preferable to the violence which comes from not communicating or from communicating mostly threats of violence.)

(For the record, I think Stephanie argued her positing very poorly, and as expressed, I found it indefensible.  There may have been something important she failed to say, but, how would I know what that was?)
« Last Edit: August 08, 2011, 11:46:53 PM by What's the frequency, Kenneth? »
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MacFall

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Re: Racism
« Reply #18 on: August 08, 2011, 11:52:49 PM »

Hmm... I just re-read my post, and I don't find any denial that sickle-cell anemia exists or anything about quinine. In fact, I don't find any denial at all that certain biological attributes are more likely to exist within certain strains of genetic lineage. What I did say is that people shouldn't generalize.

Cultural differences certainly do exist. But culture and race are not the same thing. A culture spreads from person to person in a memetic fashion and is not contained by any supposed "racial" boundaries. The belief that "race" and culture are causally linked is racism. It's a form of polylogism.

I would say that, in fact, culture is to blame for much of what is usually ascribed to race. For example, take a look at the average intelligence of black people in societies with market economies as compared to those still living under tribal socialism and you will see a huge difference. Then take a bunch of white people whose ancestors were geniuses and throw them into a welfare farm and watch the same damn thing happen. They are of the same genetic strain, and yet vary wildly in their intellectual capacity based on the culture in which they are immersed - each having very different incentives for exercising the intellect, and very different attitudes towards the value of thought itself.
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Pizzly

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Re: Racism
« Reply #19 on: August 09, 2011, 12:16:57 AM »

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_PPPysDsAc&feature=channel_video_title[/youtube]
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Ecolitan

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Re: Racism
« Reply #20 on: August 09, 2011, 10:02:35 AM »

Hmm... I just re-read my post, and I don't find any denial that sickle-cell anemia exists or anything about quinine.

People with genetic heritage from the african continent are more likely to develop sickle-cell anemia.  If it makes you more comfortable to group those people into some other category than race that also identifies there common genetic traits I might be willing to refrain from ridiculing you, but I doubt it.


Dio, quoting me is definitely a better kinder thing to do than realizing that if we were both in wal-mart and you walked right up to me and told me what you think of my dress not being up to your standards is no different than you doing it here and apologizing for being a first rate asshole.  But that's far more than I expect of you (being the first rate asshole you are) which is why I'll continue to treat you as you treat others.
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Ecolitan

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Re: Racism
« Reply #21 on: August 09, 2011, 10:45:38 AM »

Obviously, sickle cell anemia does not exist, and British did not learn to use quinine to avoid malaria, because, you know, all cultures are genetically identical.

 :roll:

The truth is obviously somewhere between the extreme deniers of differences and the people who think everyone with skin that's a shade different from theirs is subhuman.


As for "hair trigger ostracism," I'd say any pussy who's afraid of being criticized for having an insensitive view of others is going to do poorly in a truly free society, where harsh criticism will probably be freely distributed (and will be far preferable to the violence which comes from not communicating or from communicating mostly threats of violence.)

(For the record, I think Stephanie argued her positing very poorly, and as expressed, I found it indefensible.  There may have been something important she failed to say, but, how would I know what that was?)

About the hair trigger ostracism:  truth is I'm just an angry sort, which typically means afraid of mean people hurting my feelings.  Probably something to do with my Dad being an abusive asshole.  (no I don't think I'm revealing anything to anyone who isn't a moron.  You've been watching for a few years)

One day when I particularly didn't need it I logged in and heard dio talking about how he objected to people like me existing in his world.  Fuck that, I'm not gonna take that bullshit from that never accomplished nothing with his fucking life hypocrit.  Today's not the day I'm gonna nod and smile while he takes a psychological dump on me. 

I doubt this will ever have the effect of convincing someone to be nicer, but like the hell's angels make regular motorcyclists acceptable, maybe more moderate people will find it invisibly useful to creating a kinder world.

Truth about Stephanie's argument.  I didn't pay much attention, I shut it off.  Don't have to dissect her every argument to know the entire perspective she's coming from is dogmatically retarded which means she can only reach an accurate conclusion by accident.
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MacFall

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Re: Racism
« Reply #22 on: August 09, 2011, 10:48:31 AM »

The concept of race was created to ascribe biological causes to cultural differences. It all gets down to polylogism in the end. There's no point in trying to salvage a concept with such a history of collectivist pseudo-science. Why don't you pick a different term, if you're so adamant about sociobiology? There's certainly no shortage of them.
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Ecolitan

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Re: Racism
« Reply #23 on: August 09, 2011, 12:05:42 PM »

I believe the English word is "race".  Ethnicity doesn't work because it's also used for cultural differences where there is no observable genetic variations.  Can't we just call a spade a spade or am I going to have to start talking about the 100 meter self-powered speed competition.

I also don't believe for one second you can identify the original use of the word "race" in it's original language and explain exactly the intended meaning in context.  Who ever told you that shit just made it the fuck up or believed someone who did.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2011, 12:12:37 PM by Ecolitan »
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MacFall

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Re: Racism
« Reply #24 on: August 09, 2011, 12:41:58 PM »

Oh, right - I couldn't possibly have done any research or anything like that. I disagree with you, so I must be making stuff up.  :roll:

Sorry, but you can't just willy-nilly disregard the origin of the term. Once people referred to "the human race" as being distinct from animals. When early sociologists started referring to other "races" they used the term deliberately to call to mind just as great a distinction. The Mongoloids and Negroids were supposed to be something other than and inferior to Caucasoids, and "other human beings" just doesn't carry the same weight as saying that they are of a different race - something greater than mere animals, but not like "us" at all. It was debated whether members of other races had souls (because if they did, then slavery was unjust) and notable abolitionists, especially among Catholic missionaries, argued against the use of the term "race" at all precisely because it implied that they did not. Unfortunately, most of them were willing to extend that principle only to Mongoloids (which included native Americans), and largely agreed with the racial sociologists that Negroids were, in fact, of a different race, distinguishable from animals only by their (in the belief of that time, marginally) greater intelligence and therefore less than human. There was even a pre-Darwinian theory of evolution which posited that Negroids evolved from apes whereas Caucasoids and Mongoloids were created beings.

And it's not as if people, after learning more about human biology, suddenly realized they had been wrong and stopped using the term in its original sense. It was insinuated into the debates about slavery as recently as the American civil war. Pro-slavery people (including none other than Abraham Lincoln himself) referred to the burden of "the superior race", which was fully human, to subjugate "the inferior race", which was not fully human, for their own good. And today modern politicians use the term to refer to classes of people with inherently different abilities to care for themselves: the black "race" is a disadvantaged class, and would continue to be in their terminology a "social minority" even if there were more blacks in society than whites.

Of course if you want to, you can go on using the word "race" however you want. You can also call yourself a bag of turnips and say that 2+2=dog for all I care. You'll be wrong in all those cases, but you can. Nobody's stopping you.
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Ecolitan

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Re: Racism
« Reply #25 on: August 09, 2011, 12:50:47 PM »

Not a single reference there illustrating an historical use of the word.

It's like that guy who sold the real estate courses in the 80s and the commodities courses in the nineties who always says that the literal meaning of insanity is doing the same thing over and over but expecting different results.  No it doesn't no matter how many local news anchors you can convince to help you destroy effective communication.  I'm afraid culture and ethnicity are sufficient to denote observable behavioral phenomena in absence of genetic differences.

That leaves us with a need for a word that describes biological differences among groups of people.  I only know of one word and I refuse to believe that refusing to acknowledge the fact that "race" exists is a virtous thing.  See sig.

FUCK. Race/spade. All of our single syllable words are being stolen.  Why do you hate efficiency?
« Last Edit: August 09, 2011, 12:53:07 PM by Ecolitan »
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Ecolitan

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Re: Racism
« Reply #26 on: August 09, 2011, 12:56:47 PM »

The wage discrepancy between short and tall is bigger than that of black and white or male and female.

Thrice in my life someone has prefaced an observation of my size with "no offense". Which never fails to shock and insult me. (why would someone expect that could be more offensive than observing that my shirt is red?  What must that person think to cause him to say "no offense")
 
Do you know why I'm not going on about how height is an illusion?  Cuz I'm not a fucking moron that's why.

Short people have been second class citizens in every culture in the history of the world.  Count the short litigators/politicians/salsmen.  We get no respect, our words don't carry the same weight.  If I were to set out to change it (which I'm not). The words people use would be farthest from my mind.  But....  In the future, if you insist on sticking to this race doesn't exist bullshit, I would prefer you call me differently statutes to prevent the stink of thousands of years of oppression following that word "short".  You know that's what people say when they can't afford to feed themselves...  "I'm a little short" they say.

Short does not exist cuz what some people think when referring to short is inconvenient for me.

« Last Edit: August 09, 2011, 01:16:49 PM by Ecolitan »
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MacFall

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Re: Racism
« Reply #27 on: August 09, 2011, 01:06:33 PM »

Oh, I see. Effective communication is best achieved by redefining words against their original meanings to suit one's own purposes.

Screw that. Words have objective meanings defined by their etymology and history. Race is a word invented by, and historically used by, racists. You don't have to be a racist to use it, but it sure is silly to try to save it from the racists.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2011, 01:08:25 PM by MacFall »
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John Shaw

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Re: Racism
« Reply #28 on: August 09, 2011, 01:14:28 PM »

I hate Saxons. Bunch of fucking horse faced monocle wearing ponces.

Also Celts.

Lookit these idiots -



Fucking stupid Saxons.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2011, 01:19:01 PM by John Shaw »
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Ecolitan

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Re: Racism
« Reply #29 on: August 09, 2011, 01:19:21 PM »

Oh, I see. Effective communication is best achieved by redefining words against their original meanings to suit one's own purposes.

Screw that. Words have objective meanings defined by their etymology and history. Race is a word invented by, and historically used by, racists. You don't have to be a racist to use it, but it sure is silly to try to save it from the racists.

I apologize, I was editing...  Read more about short and understand that I meant "differently statured"

And that it addresses your saving the word race from racists.....  wAIT a fucking minute....  You can't use that word "racist". It comes from race.  What the fuck are you gonna call a racist now?
« Last Edit: August 09, 2011, 01:26:56 PM by Ecolitan »
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