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Diogenes The Cynic

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Re: Questions for the believers
« Reply #60 on: January 22, 2010, 12:38:31 AM »

Always good to have input from you Celestrian.

There's no doubt that I am biased regarding religion. My second question is more of a thought I suppose, but the first one is legit.

It seems that any cult can become "real" if enough people buy into it, whether they've been aggressively pursued by members or not. Scientology is a good example of that. If no one buys into the belief, then no matter how powerful their god, or belief system, is- then eventually their idea falters.

Is it a self-seeking confirmation for individuals to get other people to believe as they do?

Mormons are in the cult registry last time I checked.
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I am looking for an honest man. -Diogenes The Cynic

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Re: Questions for the believers
« Reply #61 on: January 22, 2010, 11:25:11 AM »

Always good to have input from you Celestrian.

There's no doubt that I am biased regarding religion. My second question is more of a thought I suppose, but the first one is legit.

It seems that any cult can become "real" if enough people buy into it, whether they've been aggressively pursued by members or not. Scientology is a good example of that. If no one buys into the belief, then no matter how powerful their god, or belief system, is- then eventually their idea falters.

Is it a self-seeking confirmation for individuals to get other people to believe as they do?

Mormons are in the cult registry last time I checked.

Yours is older so you win.  Judaism goes waaaay back.  You know back before god was cool. 
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theCelestrian

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Re: Questions for the believers
« Reply #62 on: January 22, 2010, 12:10:43 PM »

Yours is older so you win.  Judaism goes waaaay back.  You know back before god was cool. 

This is something that I've actually been thinking about for a while in regards to the "life cycles" of organized religions.  However, there is something to be said about the what seems to be the staying power of Abrahamic Religions.  Granted, I'll admit that this thread, and most of our discussions relating to these have a decidedly western bend to them; as Hinduism also has a significant number of followers and a lengthy history as well.
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Diogenes The Cynic

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Re: Questions for the believers
« Reply #63 on: January 22, 2010, 01:58:40 PM »



Mormons are in the cult registry last time I checked.

Yours is older so you win.  Judaism goes waaaay back.  You know back before god was cool. 

You are a total fucktard. I never said anything about age. We mentioned religions as opposed to cults, and I said that under the definitions of the cult registry, Mormonism is a cult.

If you're too stupid to contribute to the discussion, don't.
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Dude, I thought you were a spambot for like a week. You posted like a spambot. You failed the Turing test.

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Re: Questions for the believers
« Reply #64 on: January 22, 2010, 03:49:23 PM »



Mormons are in the cult registry last time I checked.

Yours is older so you win.  Judaism goes waaaay back.  You know back before god was cool. 

You are a total fucktard. I never said anything about age. We mentioned religions as opposed to cults, and I said that under the definitions of the cult registry, Mormonism is a cult.

If you're too stupid to contribute to the discussion, don't.

Temper, temper.
Isn't it shabbat time?
Go eat some braided bread you silly zealot you.
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blackie

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Re: Questions for the believers
« Reply #65 on: January 22, 2010, 04:01:36 PM »

Isn't it shabbat time?
Go eat some braided bread you silly zealot you.
Not till sundown.

And it is called challah. I know because I have a book about it.



OMG, the book is out of print and people are trying to sell new ones for $95-$250. You can get a used one for $0.71.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/0789492342/ref=sr_1_olp_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1264196557&sr=8-1&condition=new

« Last Edit: January 22, 2010, 04:45:48 PM by blackie »
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Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith)

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Re: Questions for the believers
« Reply #66 on: January 22, 2010, 04:02:53 PM »

I would say that Mormonism is far closer to being a cult than Judaism for several reasons.  It was based on following the words of a specific individual.  It has an organized religious hierarchy.  Judaism has neither of these.
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theCelestrian

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Re: Questions for the believers
« Reply #67 on: January 22, 2010, 04:35:52 PM »

I'm gonna play "Devil's advocate" for the sake of exploration

I would say that Mormonism is far closer to being a cult than Judaism for several reasons.  It was based on following the words of a specific individual.  

Would not "following the word of God" also satisfy this criteria as God is a single entity?

It has an organized religious hierarchy.  Judaism has neither of these.

What is the role of the Rabbi's in religious landscape in contrast the "average" practitioner of Judaism? (Honestly curious)
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Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith)

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Re: Questions for the believers
« Reply #68 on: January 22, 2010, 05:58:23 PM »

I'm gonna play "Devil's advocate" for the sake of exploration

I would say that Mormonism is far closer to being a cult than Judaism for several reasons.  It was based on following the words of a specific individual.  

Would not "following the word of God" also satisfy this criteria as God is a single entity?
God is more than an individual.  God is the entirety of the Universe, infinite etc.  Not just one dude in a chair in the sky.
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It has an organized religious hierarchy.  Judaism has neither of these.

What is the role of the Rabbi's in religious landscape in contrast the "average" practitioner of Judaism? (Honestly curious)
  Rabbi means teacher in Hebrew.  Nothing more and nothing less.  A Rabbi is simply an individual who has studied Torah to a much higher degree than the average person and is highly knowledgeable of it.  There's nothing hierarchical there besides the teacher/student relationship that is voluntary.
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"Do not throw rocks at people with guns." —Hastings' Third Law
"Income tax returns are the most imaginative fiction being written today." —Herman Wouk 

"If you want total security, go to prison. There you're fed, clothed, given medical care and so on. The only thing lacking... is freedom." - Dwight D. Eisenhower

blackie

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Re: Questions for the believers
« Reply #69 on: January 22, 2010, 08:56:48 PM »

There's nothing hierarchical there besides the teacher/student relationship that is voluntary.
Judaism may not be "hierachical", but it is very organized, and there are people in charge.

Who gets to decide if someone can convert to Jew?

Also, sometimes "they" decide to kick people out. Brauch Spinoza was kicked out for being pantheistic.
Quote
Though Spinoza was active in the Dutch Jewish community and extremely well-versed in Jewish texts, his controversial ideas eventually led community leaders to issue a cherem (Hebrew: חרם, a kind of excommunication) against him, effectively dismissing him from Jewish society at age 23.

...

The terms of his cherem were severe.[8] He was, in Bertrand Russell's words, "cursed with all the curses in Deuteronomy and with the curse that Elisha pronounced on the children who, in consequence, were torn to pieces by the she-bears."[9] The cherem was, atypically, never revoked. Following his excommunication, he adopted the first name Benedictus, the Latin equivalent of his given name, Baruch; they both mean "blessed". In his native Amsterdam he was also known as Bento (Portuguese for Benedict or blessed) de Spinoza, which was the informal form of his name.

The Ban

The ban, written in Portuguese, is still preserved in the archives of the Amsterdam community. The pronouncement preceding the ban reads:

The chiefs of the council make known to you that having long known of evil opinions and acts of Baruch de Spinoza, they have endeavored by various means and promises to turn him from evil ways. Not being able to find any remedy, but on the contrary receiving every day more information about the abominable heresies practiced and taught by him, and about the monstrous acts committed by him, having this from many trustworthy witnesses who have deposed and borne witness on all this in the presence of said Spinoza, who has been convicted; all this having been examined in the presence of the Rabbis, the council decided, with the advice of the Rabbi, that the said Spinoza should be excommunicated and cut off from the Nation of Israel.

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Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith)

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Re: Questions for the believers
« Reply #70 on: January 22, 2010, 11:08:25 PM »

There's nothing hierarchical there besides the teacher/student relationship that is voluntary.
Judaism may not be "hierachical", but it is very organized, and there are people in charge.

Who gets to decide if someone can convert to Jew?

Also, sometimes "they" decide to kick people out. Brauch Spinoza was kicked out for being pantheistic.
Quote
Though Spinoza was active in the Dutch Jewish community and extremely well-versed in Jewish texts, his controversial ideas eventually led community leaders to issue a cherem (Hebrew: חרם, a kind of excommunication) against him, effectively dismissing him from Jewish society at age 23.

...

The terms of his cherem were severe.[8] He was, in Bertrand Russell's words, "cursed with all the curses in Deuteronomy and with the curse that Elisha pronounced on the children who, in consequence, were torn to pieces by the she-bears."[9] The cherem was, atypically, never revoked. Following his excommunication, he adopted the first name Benedictus, the Latin equivalent of his given name, Baruch; they both mean "blessed". In his native Amsterdam he was also known as Bento (Portuguese for Benedict or blessed) de Spinoza, which was the informal form of his name.

The Ban

The ban, written in Portuguese, is still preserved in the archives of the Amsterdam community. The pronouncement preceding the ban reads:

The chiefs of the council make known to you that having long known of evil opinions and acts of Baruch de Spinoza, they have endeavored by various means and promises to turn him from evil ways. Not being able to find any remedy, but on the contrary receiving every day more information about the abominable heresies practiced and taught by him, and about the monstrous acts committed by him, having this from many trustworthy witnesses who have deposed and borne witness on all this in the presence of said Spinoza, who has been convicted; all this having been examined in the presence of the Rabbis, the council decided, with the advice of the Rabbi, that the said Spinoza should be excommunicated and cut off from the Nation of Israel.

Spinoza is a well known and studied individual among Jews.  What I remember about him mostly was that he was kicked out of his community for being too Catholic.  Although Wikipedia seems to suggest that it was because he associated with too many atheists and dissident Christians.

There are no people "in charge" of Judaism.  There is no Jewish "pope" figure.  There isn't even any central organization or structure.  The closest you can come to hierarchical or organized Judaism is Chabad.  And even that is not the comparable to religions like Mormonism and Catholicism.   Who decides if a person is to be converted?  A rabbi.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2010, 11:15:40 PM by Admiral Naismith »
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"Do not throw rocks at people with guns." —Hastings' Third Law
"Income tax returns are the most imaginative fiction being written today." —Herman Wouk 

"If you want total security, go to prison. There you're fed, clothed, given medical care and so on. The only thing lacking... is freedom." - Dwight D. Eisenhower

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Re: Questions for the believers
« Reply #71 on: January 22, 2010, 11:14:45 PM »

What does it take to become a Rabbi?  Who decides when a person is fluent enough in the belief to be a Rabbi?  
Is it expected to donate to the faith somehow?   Like the way that Christians tithe? 
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Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith)

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Re: Questions for the believers
« Reply #72 on: January 22, 2010, 11:18:19 PM »

What does it take to become a Rabbi?  Who decides when a person is fluent enough in the belief to be a Rabbi?  
Is it expected to donate to the faith somehow?   Like the way that Christians tithe?  
You go to a Rabbinical school.  Diogenes knows a lot more about that stuff than I do, so I'll let him chime in even though I believe he is mostly associated with the Chassidic sect and is more traditional than most Jews today.  I know that my rabbi told me that in order for him to graduate from his school he had to defeat his teacher in an argument.  I thought that was kinda cool.

Do a google search on Rabbinical school and you'll find a variety of organizations and methods.

Easy cop out link: http://www.ehow.com/how_138294_become-rabbi.html
Quote
Instructions

Step
1

Be Jewish or convert to Judaism. Conversion is a multistep process with different requirements for the different branches of Judaism.

Step
2

Be a good speaker and a good listener. Your success as a rabbi hinges on interacting well with people to gain their confidence.

Step
3

Decide which branch of Judaism you want to serve: Orthodox, Conservative, Reform or Reconstructionist. (Orthodox Judaism ordains only male rabbis.) They feature very different forms of worship and lifestyle, from traditional to quite modern. Format and rituals can even vary within one branch.

Step
4

Get a college degree. Most Jewish seminary programs require it. Your major isn't crucial. Seminaries look for qualities that will make you a successful spiritual leader. They weigh your academic success, volunteer work, psychological makeup and more.

Step
5

Gain substantial life experience. Many lawyers, doctors and business people become rabbis as a second career. They view their religious calling as a way to give back to the community.

Step
6

Complete a four- or five-year seminary program. Each branch of Judaism has its own requirements, but you can usually expect an academic program plus internships and field training. The religious curriculum includes the Torah, Jewish history and Hebrew, and you'll also study psychology, education, public speaking and community problem solving.

Step
7

Graduate as a rabbi with a master's degree in Hebrew letters. Or study longer and earn a doctorate in Hebrew letters.

Step
8

Get hired by a congregation and receive direction from your congregation's board of trustees. Judaism doesn't have a religious hierarchy, so rabbis don't report to a superior such as a bishop or a pope.

Step
9

Expect to start small in your first job. Competition is stiff for large congregations. You can become an assistant rabbi, a leader of a small congregation, a chaplain in the military or the director of a college Hillel center. You can also teach at a college or seminary or work for a Jewish social-service agency.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2010, 11:23:42 PM by Admiral Naismith »
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"Do not throw rocks at people with guns." —Hastings' Third Law
"Income tax returns are the most imaginative fiction being written today." —Herman Wouk 

"If you want total security, go to prison. There you're fed, clothed, given medical care and so on. The only thing lacking... is freedom." - Dwight D. Eisenhower

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Re: Questions for the believers
« Reply #73 on: January 22, 2010, 11:23:03 PM »

He probably won't answer me.  I'm a "fucktard". 
Anyway, I'll look it up b/c I'm curious.  Who knows maybe one day DTC will be my Rabbi converting me?
Out of all the clubs out there to join, Judaism seems to have the most beneficial perks/benefits/contacts. 
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Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith)

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Re: Questions for the believers
« Reply #74 on: January 23, 2010, 06:41:34 AM »

He probably won't answer me.  I'm a "fucktard". 
Anyway, I'll look it up b/c I'm curious.  Who knows maybe one day DTC will be my Rabbi converting me?
Out of all the clubs out there to join, Judaism seems to have the most beneficial perks/benefits/contacts. 
I think the solution is to not be an asshole to him because he has different religious beliefs than you.  We're not looking for converts.  But we're always down for friends.  So chill out and relax about Jews.  I'm sure if you do you'll find a couple friends.
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"Do not throw rocks at people with guns." —Hastings' Third Law
"Income tax returns are the most imaginative fiction being written today." —Herman Wouk 

"If you want total security, go to prison. There you're fed, clothed, given medical care and so on. The only thing lacking... is freedom." - Dwight D. Eisenhower
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