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Author Topic: Questions for the believers  (Read 16495 times)

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Diogenes The Cynic

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Re: Questions for the believers
« Reply #45 on: January 20, 2010, 12:02:13 AM »

Nuh, uh!  My teacher from the video told me so. 
He said I'd be accepted...on judgement day.  Which means saved in my book.
Hallelujah. 


If you convert, which you dont have to.
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Rillion

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Re: Questions for the believers
« Reply #46 on: January 20, 2010, 12:08:50 AM »

No one on here can really challenge my faith.

Shifting of the burden of proof in nine words. 
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Diogenes The Cynic

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Re: Questions for the believers
« Reply #47 on: January 20, 2010, 12:30:27 AM »

No one on here can really challenge my faith.

Shifting of the burden of proof in nine words. 

Ok, I will briefly satisfy my end of the burden of proof.

Premise: G-d exists.

Proof: The world had a beginning point.
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Rillion

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Re: Questions for the believers
« Reply #48 on: January 20, 2010, 12:45:30 AM »

No one on here can really challenge my faith.

Shifting of the burden of proof in nine words. 

Ok, I will briefly satisfy my end of the burden of proof.

Premise: G-d exists.

Proof: The world had a beginning point.

Please demonstrate that a) this is necessarily so, and b) it requires a sentient entity.
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Diogenes The Cynic

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Re: Questions for the believers
« Reply #49 on: January 20, 2010, 01:39:20 AM »

No one on here can really challenge my faith.

Shifting of the burden of proof in nine words. 

Ok, I will briefly satisfy my end of the burden of proof.

Premise: G-d exists.

Proof: The world had a beginning point.

Please demonstrate that a) this is necessarily so, and b) it requires a sentient entity.


a-Because of background radiation, and red-shifting of galaxies. Don't think that's such a moot point too. Before these were discovered in the fifties, most atheists believed the Aristotelian model that the universe was ageless and always existed as it does now. Once they found out that there was a beginning, as in "In the beginning" they could no longer use the ageless universe explanation. They had to move onto the idea that the universe is in stages of expansion and contraction, and that we are in the expansion point now.


b-Every reaction has to have a catalyst. Since there was a beginning, and nothing can start itself, because that would violate the laws of thermodynamics, something outside of the regular forces that make things happen must have set it off.
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theCelestrian

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Re: Questions for the believers
« Reply #50 on: January 20, 2010, 12:10:35 PM »

The God of the Gaps, as it were.

It's interesting you bring up the point of Vacuum Gensis - something that's been discussed and debated from some time.  There are some interesting postulations regarding this in the fields of String Theory (the big physics fad of the moment - much like Quantum Mechanics were about 40 years ago).  The executive, non mathematical summary is like slices of bread - different dimensional planes could at times "bump up" against each other at a singular point, causing a transfer of mass/energy from one plane to another.

I don't have the source material regarding the specifics on hand, so don't take my summary of rudimentary explanation as gospel.
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gibson042

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Re: Questions for the believers
« Reply #51 on: January 20, 2010, 12:15:12 PM »

a-Because of background radiation, and red-shifting of galaxies. Don't think that's such a moot point too. Before these were discovered in the fifties, most atheists believed the Aristotelian model that the universe was ageless and always existed as it does now. Once they found out that there was a beginning, as in "In the beginning" they could no longer use the ageless universe explanation. They had to move onto the idea that the universe is in stages of expansion and contraction, and that we are in the expansion point now.

Closed manifolds like circles and spheres have no boundary (and thus no set of points that could be identified with a "beginning").  Observations of the universe are consistent with those of a closed spacetime.

Quote
b-Every reaction has to have a catalyst. Since there was a beginning, and nothing can start itself, because that would violate the laws of thermodynamics, something outside of the regular forces that make things happen must have set it off.

Introducing an infinite regress is not proof.  Also, you have premised this claim on the unproved (as demonstrated by the above counterexample) assertion of a beginning.  And finally, you have not addressed the issue of sapience.
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Re: Questions for the believers
« Reply #52 on: January 21, 2010, 05:04:07 PM »

New questions:

Does a larger number of converts to one's religion reinforce the notion for that person that their religion is "real" ?

Once a person has been converted, it seems that person is then sort of stowed away like a trophy and the focus of the people doing the converting immediately shifts to the next prize (the next convert). Why is this?
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theCelestrian

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Re: Questions for the believers
« Reply #53 on: January 21, 2010, 05:11:20 PM »

New questions:

Does a larger number of converts to one's religion reinforce the notion for that person that their religion is "real" ?

Once a person has been converted, it seems that person is then sort of stowed away like a trophy and the focus of the people doing the converting immediately shifts to the next prize (the next convert). Why is this?

I think many of the devout might disagree with your observation, pointing out that what it seems like to you is that of an observation hopelessly skewed by bias.  It could also be equally likely that (as I think we're talking about Christianity again - as I don't see a large recruiting effort on the part of the practitioners of Judaism) is that there is the burden of Christians to spread the word of Christ, and once someone accepts him as their personal savior, then the attention they receive is not the same "recruitment practices," but rather fall into the fold and do "everyday kinds of stuff."

I don't know what that "stuff" would be, but just a opening postulation.   I actually have some questions of my own I would like to ask the devout based on a recurring set of assumptions I hear, particularly when discussing Omnipotence, but I think that deserves it's own thread.
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blackie

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Re: Questions for the believers
« Reply #54 on: January 21, 2010, 05:19:24 PM »

even though I'm agnostic
Isn't it possible to be an agnostic believer or an agnostic atheist?
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Re: Questions for the believers
« Reply #55 on: January 21, 2010, 05:20:54 PM »

Always good to have input from you Celestrian.

There's no doubt that I am biased regarding religion. My second question is more of a thought I suppose, but the first one is legit.

It seems that any cult can become "real" if enough people buy into it, whether they've been aggressively pursued by members or not. Scientology is a good example of that. If no one buys into the belief, then no matter how powerful their god, or belief system, is- then eventually their idea falters.

Is it a self-seeking confirmation for individuals to get other people to believe as they do?
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Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith)

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Re: Questions for the believers
« Reply #56 on: January 21, 2010, 05:26:00 PM »

New questions:

Does a larger number of converts to one's religion reinforce the notion for that person that their religion is "real" ?

Once a person has been converted, it seems that person is then sort of stowed away like a trophy and the focus of the people doing the converting immediately shifts to the next prize (the next convert). Why is this?
The amount of people who believe what I do has no bearing on my believing it.  I think this issue can be different for members of other religions though, especially mormons and Jehova Witnesses.
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Diogenes The Cynic

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Re: Questions for the believers
« Reply #57 on: January 21, 2010, 07:05:03 PM »

New questions:

Does a larger number of converts to one's religion reinforce the notion for that person that their religion is "real" ?

Once a person has been converted, it seems that person is then sort of stowed away like a trophy and the focus of the people doing the converting immediately shifts to the next prize (the next convert). Why is this?

Its social reinforcement, but not philosophical. Kind of like a bandwagon approach.

I wouldn't know. My roommate is a convert, and he said he doesn't feel like that's what happened with him. You're speaking from a Christian perspective, which I can't answer to, and don't know anything about.
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theCelestrian

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Re: Questions for the believers
« Reply #58 on: January 21, 2010, 07:10:21 PM »

even though I'm agnostic
Isn't it possible to be an agnostic believer or an agnostic atheist?

There's a big spectrum, but yes.  I would be slightly closer to an "agnostic believer" as you put it, because the concept of God is not anathema to me, but think I still remain closer to the Strong Agnostic - which is summed as "Mankind will never be able to prove/disprove God's existence objectively ever..... until you're dead - and therefore I cannot draw a decisive conclusion on whether to believe either way."
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blackie

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Re: Questions for the believers
« Reply #59 on: January 21, 2010, 08:42:20 PM »

I think I may be an ignostic. But also a believer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignosticism
Quote
Ignosticism, or igtheism, is the theological position that every other theological position (including agnosticism) assumes too much about the concept of God and many other theological concepts. The word "ignosticism" was coined by Sherwin Wine, a rabbi and a founding figure in Humanistic Judaism.

It can be defined as encompassing two related views about the existence of God:

   1. The view that a coherent definition of God must be presented before the question of the existence of God can be meaningfully discussed. Furthermore, if that definition is unfalsifiable, the ignostic takes the theological noncognitivist position that the question of the existence of God (per that definition) is meaningless. In this case, the concept of God is not considered meaningless; the term "God" is considered meaningless.
   2. The second view is synonymous with theological noncognitivism, and skips the step of first asking "What is meant by God?" before proclaiming the original question "Does God exist?" as meaningless.

Some philosophers have seen ignosticism as a variation of agnosticism or atheism,[1] while others have considered it to be distinct. An ignostic maintains that they cannot even say whether he/she is a theist or an atheist until a better definition of theism is put forth.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2010, 08:47:41 PM by blackie »
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