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Author Topic: Question for my fellow voluntaryists.  (Read 2419 times)

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Euler

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Question for my fellow voluntaryists.
« on: June 08, 2009, 06:08:04 PM »

Is there a level of support of government that one can have and still be considered a good advocate for liberty?  In other words, is a person who advocates for even a tiny state to be placed in the same category as one who advocates for a huge one?
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Bill Brasky

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Re: Question for my fellow voluntaryists.
« Reply #1 on: June 08, 2009, 06:43:18 PM »

Is there a level of support of government that one can have and still be considered a good advocate for liberty? 

Yes.

In other words, is a person who advocates for even a tiny state to be placed in the same category as one who advocates for a huge one?

wat
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Alex Libman 14

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Re: Question for my fellow voluntaryists.
« Reply #2 on: June 08, 2009, 06:47:40 PM »

I don't see Minarchist and Anarcho-Capitalist ideas as being in conflict, the first 90% of the path is the same.  The former provides many pragmatic political ideas that work in the present, while the latter is a long-term vision and a personal moral philosophy.  Thus any advocacy in the general direction of reducing government power (and thus enhancing individual liberty) is beneficial.


The anarchist-minarchist debate will still be around thousands of years after Karl Marx is universally confused with Shaka Zulu's witch-doctor, but it's not very relevant in the present.  I see myself being on both sides of this debate.

Being a programmer, I tend to think of this through the following analogy:  imagine I get hired to re-engineer the information systems of a small business and develop a new version of their accounting software while keeping their business running with the old version in the meantime.  I find that the current IT system is a 1960s-era pre-UNIX mainframe held together with duct tape, the Algol code is documented in French, and it averages three electrical fires per month, which as of now are my problem to deal with.  The new system will be perfect, but I need time to implement it, test everything, make sure it can handle all of their long-term business needs, document it, train the accountants to use it, convert the data, make changes to other systems that used to interact with the accounting mainframe, and so on.  That old mainframe represents society as it stands now, and the patches I need to make to the mainframe to keep the short-term business operations flowing is what the pragmatic / minacrhist Libertarian Party is trying to do.  The new version (i.e. perfect Anarcho-Capitalism) may take a while to stabilize, and not everyone will want to be an alpha / beta tester.  You have to split your time between the two systems and keep both your balls in the air.
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MacFall

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Re: Question for my fellow voluntaryists.
« Reply #3 on: June 08, 2009, 07:47:02 PM »

I would consider a person who may believe in the inevitability of the state, but not in its legitimacy, to be an ally.
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Andy

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Re: Question for my fellow voluntaryists.
« Reply #4 on: June 08, 2009, 10:35:51 PM »

I would consider a person who may believe in the inevitability of the state, but not in its legitimacy, to be an ally.

Yo.

J’raxis 270145

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Re: Question for my fellow voluntaryists.
« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2009, 12:25:31 AM »

Is there a level of support of government that one can have and still be considered a good advocate for liberty?  In other words, is a person who advocates for even a tiny state to be placed in the same category as one who advocates for a huge one?

Yes and no. On a moral level, advocating for any amount of aggression is wrong. But on a practical level, with the exception of a few hotbutton issues, I can get along fine with anyone advocating that we merely reduce the massive amount of aggression that’s currently going on. We can argue about anarchism vs. minarchism when we get close to true minarchism.

There’s also the question of, does a person merely support the specific examples of status quo aggression, or do they want to create new ones (even while reducing others)? This was a big problem with Ron Paul for a lot of people: On the whole, he wanted to massively downsize the government, but on a few minor issues, such as “illegal” immigration, he wanted to increase it.
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BobRobertson

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Re: Question for my fellow voluntaryists.
« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2009, 10:54:42 AM »

Is there a level of support of government that one can have and still be considered a good advocate for liberty?

I think this issue stems from the confusion between government and governance.

People accept governance over their interaction with others, voluntarily, constantly. The store with "No Shirt, No Shoes, No Service" is placing governance upon those who would enter the store. Those who enter are voluntarily agreeing to the "terms of service" in order to do business there.

We accept governance in every association, every group, every interaction. That is why (protests to the contrary notwithstanding) anarchy is not chaos and does not "turn into bullshit in a matter a days". People come together peacefully because people survive better in cooperation than they do by eating their neighbors.

Minarchists tend to be convinced that there is(are) service(s) that MUST be provided by government because they are not provided by market forces. This ignores the fact that those services are in demand. Police, adjudication, and what else, roads? All have been and even today are provided privately.

What government creates is chaos. Constantly shifting laws, inconsistent enforcement, absurd punishments for what constitutes no crime at all, special favors for arbitrary individuals or groups, etc. All subvert the natural governance which arises between individuals.
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"I regret that I am now to die in the belief that the useless sacrifice of themselves by the generation of 1776 to acquire self-government and happiness to their country is to be thrown away by the unwise and unworthy passions of their sons, and that my only consolation is to be that I live not to weep over it."
-- Thomas Jefferson, April 26th 1820

NHArticleTen

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Re: Question for my fellow voluntaryists.
« Reply #7 on: June 09, 2009, 11:51:20 AM »


In the real world, pure anarchy would turn into bullshit in a matter a days.


"pure self-rule" would most certainly NOT turn into bullshit...

regardless of the depth of the police state we currently live in...

right now you could STILL walk next door, kick the door down, and beat the inhabitants to death with a tree limb...

to wit, the reason most people DON'T do those things is because it's not in anyone's best interests...regardless of how "much" or how "little" gunvernment currently exists...

"entangling alliances with none, trade with all"

hmmm....

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BONEMAN

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Re: Question for my fellow voluntaryists.
« Reply #8 on: June 10, 2009, 03:22:06 PM »

I love minarchists as much as I love statists.
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HOO-HAA

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Re: Question for my fellow voluntaryists.
« Reply #9 on: June 10, 2009, 03:31:36 PM »

To put it simply, minarchism is a step in the right direction.

I think after years of nanny statism, many people would panic if they woke up, tomorrow, to anarchy.

Minarchism could be like stabilisers on a bike, or a crutch, for these people.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2009, 06:37:08 PM by HOO-HAA »
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BobRobertson

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Re: Question for my fellow voluntaryists.
« Reply #10 on: June 10, 2009, 03:55:02 PM »

I think after years of nanny statism, many people would panic is they woke up, tomorrow, to anarchy.

I see you've read L. Neil Smith's _The American Zone_ http://www.scifi.com/sfw/issue243/books.html

The reason I do not see this as an issue is because there is no lack of people who want to tell other people how to live. There are already enough "Whatever For Dummies" books to cover pretty much every subject. There are churches and religions today who will gladly detail what "you should and should not do" in minute detail.

Lots of money is made with so-called "self help" books, videos, seminars, etc.

This seems to relate back to what I said above. Just because of a lack of government, a lack of governance does not automatically follow. Neither does government guarantee governance, since the very nature of government fosters chaos and uncertainty in everything it touches.
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"I regret that I am now to die in the belief that the useless sacrifice of themselves by the generation of 1776 to acquire self-government and happiness to their country is to be thrown away by the unwise and unworthy passions of their sons, and that my only consolation is to be that I live not to weep over it."
-- Thomas Jefferson, April 26th 1820

KDus

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Re: Question for my fellow voluntaryists.
« Reply #11 on: June 10, 2009, 09:03:00 PM »

Is there a government that doesn't grow and become more that it started?

I see it as a lever with Statist on one end and Anarchist on the other. I'd be happy if the balance ends up being small government, but I'm gonna try to get as many Anarchists way out on the lever, as possible.
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Re: Question for my fellow voluntaryists.
« Reply #12 on: June 11, 2009, 11:25:35 AM »

Is there a government that doesn't grow and become more that it started?

I know of no historical example. Once the power of coercion is vested in an institution, that institution grows.

Voluntary organizations tend not to get "too big for their britches" for the simple fact that people simply stop associating when it gets too intrusive for them.
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"I regret that I am now to die in the belief that the useless sacrifice of themselves by the generation of 1776 to acquire self-government and happiness to their country is to be thrown away by the unwise and unworthy passions of their sons, and that my only consolation is to be that I live not to weep over it."
-- Thomas Jefferson, April 26th 1820
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