Premeditated provocation by so-called "peace activists" ends in bloodshed

[theodorelogan]

Excellent clarification of the real question here.  My answer is yes, I can force you not to give gifts to someone who is throwing explosives in the general vicinity of my home.

The people who are getting the fishing poles are not necessarily the people who are shooting the rockets.

If you can prove to me that aI e preventing trade between peaceful people.

Look, I agree that it seems stupid that they won't let fishing poles across the border, I'm not a blind robot that simply parrots opinions.  But at the same time I am also saying that what the item is doesn't really matter.  The terrorist "government" of Gaza put themselves into a state of war with their neighbor.  Hamas did that.  So now everyone in Gaza gets to live with their government's decisions.  And that shit really sucks.  If Hamas could go away tomorrow and just dissappear into obscurity I'm sure Gaza's conditions would improve vastly.  If Hamas would put down the RPG's, or simply move to Iran (where they seem to be getting most of their backing from), then regular Gazan folks could live better lives, as well as Israeli folks.

So lets focus on how to get rid of Hamas, or at least how to neuter Hamas effectively, instead of hating on Israel.

this thread is about how the government of Israel stole ships from people.  So no, I won't stop hating on the government of Israel.


Start a thread on how members of Hamas attack and kill innocent people, and I'll hate on Hamas there.  You are trying to excuse the government of Israel's attacks on innocent people by pointing Hamas' attacks on OTHER innocent people.

Hamas and the state of Israel are both evil an both should be condemned

[anarchir]

The terrorist "government" of Gaza put themselves into a state of war with their neighbor.  Hamas did that.  So now everyone in Gaza gets to live with their government's decisions.  And that shit really sucks.  

The terrorist "government" of the U.S. put themselves into a state of war with Iraq, Afganastan and parts of Parkistan. Republocrats did that. So now everyone in the U.S. gets to live with their governments decisions. And that really sucks.

Or to put it another way, 9/11 sucked but at least it was justified.

Wow you are saying that 9/11 was justified?  You are even more twisted than I had previously thought.  What a fuckin nutjob.

Fo cereal davann? FO CEREAL? 

[Terror Australis]

Excellent clarification of the real question here.  My answer is yes, I can force you not to give gifts to someone who is throwing explosives in the general vicinity of my home.

The people who are getting the fishing poles are not necessarily the people who are shooting the rockets.

If you can prove to me that aI e preventing trade between peaceful people.

Look, I agree that it seems stupid that they won't let fishing poles across the border, I'm not a blind robot that simply parrots opinions.  But at the same time I am also saying that what the item is doesn't really matter.  The terrorist "government" of Gaza put themselves into a state of war with their neighbor.  Hamas did that.  So now everyone in Gaza gets to live with their government's decisions.  And that shit really sucks.  If Hamas could go away tomorrow and just dissappear into obscurity I'm sure Gaza's conditions would improve vastly.  If Hamas would put down the RPG's, or simply move to Iran (where they seem to be getting most of their backing from), then regular Gazan folks could live better lives, as well as Israeli folks.

So lets focus on how to get rid of Hamas, or at least how to neuter Hamas effectively, instead of hating on Israel.

While you are at it get rid of the israeli government.

[The Muslim Agorist]

So lets focus on how to get rid of Hamas, or at least how to neuter Hamas effectively, instead of hating on Israel.

While you are at it get rid of the israeli government.

Now we're talkin! What's the NO-State solution? Lets just take all the weapons out of the sandbox and if the children still want to fight, let them fight with rocks and sticks.

[blackie]

I had heard about a camera man shot in the head, and was waiting for more details.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_flotilla_raid

Bülent Yıldırım, president of the Humanitarian Aid Foundation (İHH), reported that photographer Cevdet Kılıçlar was shot in the head by a soldier one meter away. British activist Kevin Ovenden confirmed that a man was shot by soldiers after pointing his camera towards them.[85] Forensic investigation found that Kılıçlar was shot in the head at close range.[86]

[The Muslim Agorist]

Does anyone have good info on why the IHH is considered a terrorist org? Just saying "Anti American with ties to Muslim Brotherhood" doesn't do it for me. What are their crimes?

[Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith)]

Does anyone have good info on why the IHH is considered a terrorist org? Just saying "Anti American with ties to Muslim Brotherhood" doesn't do it for me. What are their crimes?

I believe they were involved in supplying Hamas with small arms.

[blackie]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IHH_%28%C4%B0nsani_Yard%C4%B1m_Vakf%C4%B1%29#Allegations_of_terrorist_affiliations

Allegations of terrorist affiliations

Political analysts from the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace,[2] the Danish Institute for International Studies,[5] the Washington Institute for Near East Policy.[22] and the Israeli Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center[23] have said there are links between IHH and Hamas, Al-Qaida, and/or other Islamist and Jihadist groups. The Daily Telegraph characterized IHH as "a radical Islamist group masquerading as a humanitarian agency."[2]

In July 2008 it was announced that Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak had signed an order declaring IHH (and 35 other funds) banned associations in Israel, saying that the IHH is part of a Hamas extremist Islamic foundations fundraising network, and supports and assists Hamas.[24]

IHH has not been designated as a Foreign Terrorist Organization by the United States.[25][26] At the State Department's June 2, 2010 daily press briefing, assistant secretary Philip J. Crowley told reporters "We cannot validate" a connection between al-Qaida and IHH, but he did express "great concern" over known meetings between IHH and senior Hamas officials.[26]

A member of the group, Izzet Sahin, had previously been arrested by the Israeli security forces on charges of aiding Palestinian organizations banned by Israel. Serkan Nergis, a spokesman for IHH, told Reuters: "We don't have anything against Israel. Our only aim was to carry aid to the people of Gaza. But for Israel, regardless of your religion or your nationality, if you help the people of Gaza you will be declared a terrorist."[12]

In response to the allegations of terrorist affiliations made following the Gaza flotilla raid, Free Gaza Movement released a statement saying that they are "proud and honored to work and be associated with the IHH and its honorable track record of humanitarian missions worldwide".[27]

[avshae]

Does anyone have good info on why the IHH is considered a terrorist org? Just saying "Anti American with ties to Muslim Brotherhood" doesn't do it for me. What are their crimes?

http://counterterrorismblog.org/2010/06/shooting_the_messenger_a_look.php

[blackie]

This is the "terrorist" version of the raid.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/draped-in-palestinian-flags-turkeys-martyrs-of-the-flotilla-are-laid-to-rest-1991106.html

Draped in Palestinian flags, Turkey's martyrs of the flotilla are laid to rest

By Donald Macintytre

Friday, 4 June 2010

Thousands of mourners yesterday attended the funerals of eight men killed in the Israeli naval raid on a Turkish ship carrying pro-Palestinian activists trying to break the Gaza blockade. The display of solidarity – which included a huge banner proclaiming "You head to heaven. May God bless your martyrdom" – came on a day that the country's President Abdullah Gul said "Israel made one of the greatest mistakes in its history." The coffins of the dead men, draped in Turkish and Palestinian flags, were carried through crowds from Istanbul's Fatih mosque to cars to take them to a city cemetery. The men, seven Turks and a US citizen of Turkish origin, ranged in ages from 19 to 60. A ninth man was due to be buried today.

"Our friends have been massacred," said Bulent Yildirim, the head of Islamic organisation IHH that helped to fund and organise the Gaza flotilla. Israel has accused IHH of links with Hamas, which the group denies.

The funerals came as the Israeli military and returning activists continued to drive home their competing narratives of what took place aboard the vessel when it was stormed by commandos before dawn Monday some 75 miles offshore, in international waters.

Israel says the commandos resorted to force only after activists attacked them with knives, crowbars and clubs, as well as two pistols wrested from soldiers. Activists say the Israeli servicemen fired first.

One of the more comprehensive accounts of the raid from a passenger on board the Mavi Marmara came from Andre Abu Khalil, a cameraman for Al Jazeera TV. He told Reuters that activists wielding sticks overwhelmed an initial small group of commandos armed with anti-riot weapons. A second wave of marines stormed in, killing those in their way, he said.

Video footage released by the Israeli authorities showed activists beating soldiers, apparently with metal rods – and hurling one off the deck – after the first commandos rappel down ropes. A recently released video shows a group of men donning bulletproof vests and arming themselves with rods before the naval assault. So far no footage has been available of the subsequent shootings.

Mr Abu Khalil said: "There were four Israeli soldiers brought to the lowest deck. They had fracture wounds."

He said that he had heard from activists who had been on the top deck of the vessel that the soldiers had been captured during their attempt to descend from the helicopters. On Monday an Israeli commando said he was struck with metal bars and other troops were held down and stripped of their helmets and and equipment.

The cameraman added: "20 Turkish men formed a human shield to prevent the Israeli soldiers from scaling the ship. They had slingshots, water pipes and sticks. They were banging the pipes on the side of the ship to warn the Israelis not to get closer."

He said the stand-off lasted about 10 minutes until the Israelis opened fire. "One man got a direct hit to the head and another one was shot in the neck," he said, adding that he saw some 40 wounded people, some with bullet wounds to the legs, apparently to disable them. Others had wounds to the eye, stomach and chest. One activist used a loudhailer to tell the Israelis the four captive soldiers were well and would be released if they provided medical help for the wounded.

With an Israeli Arab Knesset member acting as mediator, the Israelis agreed to the request and the wounded were brought to the top deck where they were airlifted off the ship. Mr Yildirim, of the IHH, admitted there had been "hand-to-hand combat" and that "some of the soldiers" had been disarmed. He denied that any of the arms had been fired and said they had been thrown into the sea. He claimed: "We told our friends on board, 'We will die, become martyrs but never let us be shown as the ones that used guns.'"

Turkish newspapers yesterday quoted family members of two of the dead men as saying they had wanted to be "martyrs".

The Foreign Press Association in Israel yesterday complained that the Israeli authorities had released video footage without the permission of the foreign journalists who shot it.

Army spokeswoman Avital Leibovich said there was "a certain chance" the footage was filmed by journalists, but that most was filmed by activists. She said it was not confiscated and was found after activists were cleared from the boat.

[The Muslim Agorist]

Does anyone have good info on why the IHH is considered a terrorist org? Just saying "Anti American with ties to Muslim Brotherhood" doesn't do it for me. What are their crimes?

http://counterterrorismblog.org/2010/06/shooting_the_messenger_a_look.php

Is sounds like their crime is the use of violence (primarily by trafficking arms) in an attempt to establish an Islamic state in Turkey. Are you prepared to condemn all organizations which use violence and/or traffic arms in the creation of a religious state?

[blackie]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/04/gaza-flotilla-activists-autopsy-results?CMP=twt_gu

Nine Turkish men on board the Mavi Marmara were shot a total of 30 times and five were killed by gunshot wounds to the head, according to the vice-chairman of the Turkish council of forensic medicine, which carried out the autopsies for the Turkish ministry of justice today.

The results revealed that a 60-year-old man, Ibrahim Bilgen, was shot four times in the temple, chest, hip and back. A 19-year-old, named as Fulkan Dogan, who also has US citizenship, was shot five times from less that 45cm, in the face, in the back of the head, twice in the leg and once in the back. Two other men were shot four times, and five of the victims were shot either in the back of the head or in the back, said Yalcin Buyuk, vice-chairman of the council of forensic medicine.

...

Dr Haluk Ince, the chairman of the council of forensic medicine in Istanbul, said that in only one case was there a single bullet wound, to the forehead from a distant shot, while every other victim suffered multiple wounds. "All [the bullets] were intact. This is important in a forensic context. When a bullet strikes another place it comes into the body deformed. If it directly comes into the body, the bullet is all intact."

He added that all but one of the bullets retrieved from the bodies came from 9mm rounds. Of the other round, he said: "It was the first time we have seen this kind of material used in firearms. It was just a container including many types of pellets usually used in shotguns. It penetrated the head region in the temple and we found it intact in the brain."

An unnamed Israeli commando, who purportedly led the raid on the Mavi Marmara, today told Israeli news website Ynet News that he shot at a protester who approached him with a knife. "I was in front of a number of people with knives and clubs," he said. "I cocked my weapon when I saw that one was coming towards me with a knife drawn and I fired once. Then another 20 people came at me from all directions and threw me down to the deck below …

"We knew they were peace activists. Though they wanted to break the Gaza blockade, we thought we'd encounter passive resistance, perhaps verbal resistance – we didn't expect this. Everyone wanted to kill us. We encountered terrorists who wanted to kill us and we did everything we could to prevent unnecessary injury."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_flotilla_raid#Israeli_military

Israeli reports say that 10 soldiers were injured in the clash.[3][12]  As of 4 p.m. on 31 May, eight soldiers were hospitalized, two of them in serious condition, according to Israeli sources.[183]  The Israeli military said that two soldiers sustained gunshot wounds, and one soldier sustained a serious head wound and lost consciousness after being tossed from an upper deck by the activists.[123]  Channel 2 (Israel) has aired footage of an Israeli Navy sailor being stabbed by one of the Free Gaza activists

[blackie]

NewpPhotos of captured IDF soldiers

http://thefastertimes.com/diplomacy/2010/06/07/new-photos-refute-idf-account-of-flotilla-incident/


I still want to hear some details of the gun shot wounds to the soldiers, and how/when they happened.

[davann]

The terrorist "government" of Gaza put themselves into a state of war with their neighbor.  Hamas did that.  So now everyone in Gaza gets to live with their government's decisions.  And that shit really sucks. 

The terrorist "government" of the U.S. put themselves into a state of war with Iraq, Afganastan and parts of Parkistan. Republocrats did that. So now everyone in the U.S. gets to live with their governments decisions. And that really sucks.

Or to put it another way, 9/11 sucked but at least it was justified.

Wow you are saying that 9/11 was justified?  You are even more twisted than I had previously thought.  What a fuckin nutjob.

Wow, really? This how you read that?

My post was an obvious attempt to show you how you’re thinking is wrong by replacing the actors in your scenario with the U.S. centric actors. Same scenario, different actors.

Although, if you did believe I was serious and that made me a nutjob what does that say about you since all I did was replace the actors?

[avshae]

NewpPhotos of captured IDF soldiers

http://thefastertimes.com/diplomacy/2010/06/07/new-photos-refute-idf-account-of-flotilla-incident/


I still want to hear some details of the gun shot wounds to the soldiers, and how/when they happened.

You're not going to find any in pro-Palestinian propaganda sites such as "the faster times lies".