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ziggy_encaoua

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Painful Question
« on: January 11, 2008, 03:16:14 PM »

This is a painful question but one which needs to be asked

Do people as a whole want a libertarian society?

I ask this from my own experience that people don't ted to have a libertarian attitude on all issues but have a libertarian opinion one or two issues

But obviously I also ask this in light of Ron Paul's failure this week & that lthe electorate rejects wholesale libertarianism at the ballot box time & time again
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Porcupine_in_MA

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Re: Painful Question
« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2008, 03:51:07 PM »

Do people as a whole want a libertarian society?

Most folk don't even understand libertarianism enough to say whether or not they would want one. If you described a libertarian society to most folk they would say something along the lines of "ohh that sounds nice but it could never happen" even though it was pretty close to one in this country in a lot of ways at various moments in its history. I know because I've done it many times.
 As a whole most folk don't have belief in freedom, and I'm betting that most even though they say they would like a libertarian society, that part of them wouldn't want one.
 They like having a big government there to act as a (albeit fictional) safety net and as an aparatus to control others behavior that they find wrong.
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Laetitia

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Re: Painful Question
« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2008, 04:04:19 PM »

To the 5-10% who understand individual liberty, it's a no-brainer - but liberty is a foreign language to most people these days. The politicians in growing nanny state, along with the public schools and liberal media have been teaching people to rely on government for that "safety net." Whether they'd ever need it or not, the idea of it being gone is scary. Most of those who preach the nanny doctrine don't even think of it as being for themselves... it's for the "unfortunate."
It's natural for people (who are just animals, after all) to be wary of something they see as a potential threat to survival.
Education really is the key.
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Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of experience comes from bad judgment.

mikehz

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Re: Painful Question
« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2008, 08:56:53 PM »

80% of people don't care. All but 2% of the rest just follow whatever political philosophy is popular at the moment. Only about 2% of active thinkers set the tone for everyone else. Get those two percent, the trend-setters, and the battle is won.

Right now, we're coasting on the philosophy set in the 1960s; the idea that all things great and wonderful flow from the government. But, with the failure of the war on poverty, the war on crime, the war on drugs, and the war on terror, people are starting to doubt that premise.
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"Force always attracts men of low morality." Albert Einstein

FURBjr

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Re: Painful Question
« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2008, 10:06:44 PM »

I feel that if people realized how much more enjoyable life could be, they would be pretty enthusiastic.  But until we have some success, it won't be very popular. 
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mark4freedom331

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Re: Painful Question
« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2008, 10:15:45 PM »


People enjoy having a government to blame for problems. They also like the fact the someone else is tasked with fixing the problems. What they never realize is government is the problem and needs to let people take care of themselves via the free market exchange of ideas, products and services.
The media gives no airtime for libertarian ideas as they seem to be intimidated by the idea of not having government backing them up with the 1st Amendment.

Is it fear perhaps? Are people scared to not have big brother government looking over their shoulder?
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mikehz

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Re: Painful Question
« Reply #6 on: January 11, 2008, 10:30:09 PM »

The cycle goes like this: 1) politicians, seeking reelection, see/invent a problem and offer a solution. 2) After getting elected, they toss together some half-ass, lamb-brained program. 3) The program does little/nothing to alleviate the problem for which it was created. 4) When the uselessness of the program is pointed out, the politician rejoins with the need for more power/money. 5) Meanwhile, the original problem continues to get worse until 6) more programs/agencies are created.

Since this cannot go on forever, the system eventually collapses.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2008, 01:23:24 PM by mikehz »
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"Force always attracts men of low morality." Albert Einstein

Porcupine_in_MA

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Re: Painful Question
« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2008, 10:43:11 PM »

Is it fear perhaps? Are people scared to not have big brother government looking over their shoulder?

Its fear coming from the false belief that government is essential for a civilized society which is fed to them from early on by government indoctrination facilities aka "public schools". This false belief in government is spread and fueled by the media and comes in two main forms in the US, which is nationalism and socialism.
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mark4freedom331

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Re: Painful Question
« Reply #8 on: January 11, 2008, 11:43:41 PM »

Agreed.

The media is scary these days. Public schools are even scarier.
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Pres. Bush: "The stakes in November are high. This is an important election. Prosperity and peace are in the balance."

ziggy_encaoua

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Re: Painful Question
« Reply #9 on: January 12, 2008, 10:21:38 AM »


People enjoy having a government to blame for problems. They also like the fact the someone else is tasked with fixing the problems.

Yes due to a lack self responsibility which begs the question how do you instil self responsibility into folk?
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ziggy_encaoua

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Re: Painful Question
« Reply #10 on: January 12, 2008, 10:24:31 AM »

To the 5-10% who understand individual liberty

That might actually be true but I’ve heard similar from communists, socialists & anarchists about their ideology & they all say if people were educated then they’d embrace their ideology.
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HomerJ

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Re: Painful Question
« Reply #11 on: January 12, 2008, 11:21:28 AM »

To the 5-10% who understand individual liberty

That might actually be true but I’ve heard similar from communists, socialists & anarchists about their ideology & they all say if people were educated then they’d embrace their ideology.

Many people are unable to think for themselves. These people can't think critically. Thus, they will be quick to believe whatever they are told. If someone else has gotten to them, they will shut you out entirely or if someone else hasn't they will be receptive. Critical thinkers should be very receptive due to their intelligence unless they have been convinced that the government can solve problems.

I want a libertarian society, most people do not want one.
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Jason Orr

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Re: Painful Question
« Reply #12 on: January 12, 2008, 04:09:39 PM »

Liberty in itself has no value.  It is only useful insofar as it enables people to pursue their individual happiness.

Do people want to be happy?  I think so, yes.
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“The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money”

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darcgun

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Re: Painful Question
« Reply #13 on: January 18, 2008, 11:09:17 AM »

This is a painful question but one which needs to be asked

Do people as a whole want a libertarian society?

I ask this from my own experience that people don't ted to have a libertarian attitude on all issues but have a libertarian opinion one or two issues

But obviously I also ask this in light of Ron Paul's failure this week & that lthe electorate rejects wholesale libertarianism at the ballot box time & time again

Yeah, so "let's appeal to the ruling class" like those dipshits in the UK think!!!

British people suck and libertarianism sucks.  Freedom is overrated and only subject to individual perception.
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Phantgeist

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Re: Painful Question
« Reply #14 on: January 18, 2008, 02:08:40 PM »

That's a big NO!

People as a whole don't want a libertarian society!  I've been saying this since day one!

A libertarian society can only come about as the result of self-selection and political migration, and then, once established and proven successful it can grow and convert others by example.  I used to think that it could work New Hampshire, but I now believe that 40,000 self-selected libertarians in a state of 1.5 mil won't be enough.  (Heck, maybe the other way around, 40,000 non-libertarians among 1.5 mil libertarians would spoil the barrel, whining to the UN on how "libertarians came and destroyed all our social services and thus violated our human rights, please save us, oh mommy world government"...)

FSP might be a good staging area, I don't know, but a realistic libertarian migration project would involve a smaller and less inhabited place, perhaps an island somewhere...  In a few generations, maybe a space-station...
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