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Free Talk Live => General => Topic started by: blackie on February 18, 2010, 01:23:11 PM

Title: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: blackie on February 18, 2010, 01:23:11 PM
http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/02/18/texas.plane.crash/index.html?hpt=T1


(CNN) -- The latest news as it comes in to CNN from the scene of the crash of a small plane in Austin, Texas. (All times are ET, one hour ahead of local Austin time.)

12:49 p.m.: The Internal Revenue Service in Dallas, Texas, told CNN that the building is a federal IRS outsourced building. It said 199 of its employees work there. The IRS said it thinks all employees are accounted for, but they are checking.

12:42 p.m.: The pilot of the plane had set his house on fire beforehand, stole the plane and crashed it intentionally, a federal official told CNN.


(http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2010/US/02/18/texas.plane.crash/story.sr22.publicdomain.jpg)
The FAA reported that the plane that crashed was a Cirrus SR 22 similar to this one.
Title: Re: Frustrated tax victim crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: BobRobertson on February 18, 2010, 02:11:43 PM
Bummer. Not much boom power in a plane like that.
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: ForumTroll on February 18, 2010, 02:26:43 PM
Hot damn.
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: Donnie Love on February 18, 2010, 02:28:45 PM
Thankfully, the number of dead and injured isn't high, but you know the Empire will use this event to tighten security even further.
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: davann on February 18, 2010, 02:32:06 PM
Sounds like one dead. That is one Saul that will never get a chance to convert to being a Paul. To bad, so sad. What am I saying! It was an IRS building! Fuck Yeah!
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: blackie on February 18, 2010, 02:56:42 PM
Web based suicide note:

http://embeddedart.com/


If you’re reading this, you’re no doubt asking yourself, “Why did this have to happen?”  The simple truth is that it is complicated and has been coming for a long time.  The writing process, started many months ago, was intended to be therapy in the face of the looming realization that there isn’t enough therapy in the world that can fix what is really broken.  Needless to say, this rant could fill volumes with example after example if I would let it.  I find the process of writing it frustrating, tedious, and probably pointless… especially given my gross inability to gracefully articulate my thoughts in light of the storm raging in my head.  Exactly what is therapeutic about that I’m not sure, but desperate times call for desperate measures.

We are all taught as children that without laws there would be no society, only anarchy.  Sadly, starting at early ages we in this country have been brainwashed to believe that, in return for our dedication and service, our government stands for justice for all.  We are further brainwashed to believe that there is freedom in this place, and that we should be ready to lay our lives down for the noble principals represented by its founding fathers.  Remember? One of these was “no taxation without representation”.  I have spent the total years of my adulthood unlearning that crap from only a few years of my childhood.  These days anyone who really stands up for that principal is promptly labeled a “crackpot”, traitor and worse.

While very few working people would say they haven’t had their fair share of taxes (as can I), in my lifetime I can say with a great degree of certainty that there has never been a politician cast a vote on any matter with the likes of me or my interests in mind.  Nor, for that matter, are they the least bit interested in me or anything I have to say.

Why is it that a handful of thugs and plunderers can commit unthinkable atrocities (and in the case of the GM executives, for scores of years) and when it’s time for their gravy train to crash under the weight of their gluttony and overwhelming stupidity, the force of the full federal government has no difficulty coming to their aid within days if not hours?  Yet at the same time, the joke we call the American medical system, including the drug and insurance companies, are murdering tens of thousands of people a year and stealing from the corpses and victims they cripple, and this country’s leaders don’t see this as important as bailing out a few of their vile, rich cronies.  Yet, the political “representatives” (thieves, liars, and self-serving scumbags is far more accurate) have endless time to sit around for year after year and debate the state of the “terrible health care problem”.  It’s clear they see no crisis as long as the dead people don’t get in the way of their corporate profits rolling in.

And justice? You’ve got to be kidding!

How can any rational individual explain that white elephant conundrum in the middle of our tax system and, indeed, our entire legal system?  Here we have a system that is, by far, too complicated for the brightest of the master scholars to understand.  Yet, it mercilessly “holds accountable” its victims, claiming that they’re responsible for fully complying with laws not even the experts understand.  The law “requires” a signature on the bottom of a tax filing; yet no one can say truthfully that they understand what they are signing; if that’s not “duress” than what is.  If this is not the measure of a totalitarian regime, nothing is.

How did I get here?

My introduction to the real American nightmare starts back in the early ‘80s.  Unfortunately after more than 16 years of school, somewhere along the line I picked up the absurd, pompous notion that I could read and understand plain English.  Some friends introduced me to a group of people who were having ‘tax code’ readings and discussions.  In particular, zeroed in on a section relating to the wonderful “exemptions” that make institutions like the vulgar, corrupt Catholic Church so incredibly wealthy.  We carefully studied the law (with the help of some of the “best”, high-paid, experienced tax lawyers in the business), and then began to do exactly what the “big boys” were doing (except that we weren’t steeling from our congregation or lying to the government about our massive profits in the name of God).  We took a great deal of care to make it all visible, following all of the rules, exactly the way the law said it was to be done.

The intent of this exercise and our efforts was to bring about a much-needed re-evaluation of the laws that allow the monsters of organized religion to make such a mockery of people who earn an honest living.  However, this is where I learned that there are two “interpretations” for every law; one for the very rich, and one for the rest of us… Oh, and the monsters are the very ones making and enforcing the laws; the inquisition is still alive and well today in this country.

That little lesson in patriotism cost me $40,000+, 10 years of my life, and set my retirement plans back to 0.  It made me realize for the first time that I live in a country with an ideology that is based on a total and complete lie.  It also made me realize, not only how naive I had been, but also the incredible stupidity of the American public; that they buy, hook, line, and sinker, the crap about their “freedom”… and that they continue to do so with eyes closed in the face of overwhelming evidence and all that keeps happening in front of them.

Before even having to make a shaky recovery from the sting of the first lesson on what justice really means in this country (around 1984 after making my way through engineering school and still another five years of “paying my dues”), I felt I finally had to take a chance of launching my dream of becoming an independent engineer.

On the subjects of engineers and dreams of independence, I should digress somewhat to say that I’m sure that I inherited the fascination for creative problem solving from my father.  I realized this at a very young age.

The significance of independence, however, came much later during my early years of college; at the age of 18 or 19 when I was living on my own as student in an apartment in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania.  My neighbor was an elderly retired woman (80+ seemed ancient to me at that age) who was the widowed wife of a retired steel worker.  Her husband had worked all his life in the steel mills of central Pennsylvania with promises from big business and the union that, for his 30 years of service, he would have a pension and medical care to look forward to in his retirement.  Instead he was one of the thousands who got nothing because the incompetent mill management and corrupt union (not to mention the government) raided their pension funds and stole their retirement.  All she had was social security to live on.

In retrospect, the situation was laughable because here I was living on peanut butter and bread (or Ritz crackers when I could afford to splurge) for months at a time.  When I got to know this poor figure and heard her story I felt worse for her plight than for my own (I, after all, I thought I had everything to in front of me).  I was genuinely appalled at one point, as we exchanged stories and commiserated with each other over our situations, when she in her grandmotherly fashion tried to convince me that I would be “healthier” eating cat food (like her) rather than trying to get all my substance from peanut butter and bread.  I couldn’t quite go there, but the impression was made.  I decided that I didn’t trust big business to take care of me, and that I would take responsibility for my own future and myself.

Return to the early ‘80s, and here I was off to a terrifying start as a ‘wet-behind-the-ears’ contract software engineer... and two years later, thanks to the fine backroom, midnight effort by the sleazy executives of Arthur Andersen (the very same folks who later brought us Enron and other such calamities) and an equally sleazy New York Senator (Patrick Moynihan), we saw the passage of 1986 tax reform act with its section 1706.

For you who are unfamiliar, here is the core text of the IRS Section 1706, defining the treatment of workers (such as contract engineers) for tax purposes. Visit this link for a conference committee report (http://www.synergistech.com/1706.shtml#ConferenceCommitteeReport) regarding the intended interpretation of Section 1706 and the relevant parts of Section 530, as amended. For information on how these laws affect technical services workers and their clients, read our discussion here (http://www.synergistech.com/ic-taxlaw.shtml).

SEC. 1706. TREATMENT OF CERTAIN TECHNICAL PERSONNEL.

(a) IN GENERAL - Section 530 of the Revenue Act of 1978 is amended by adding at the end thereof the following new subsection:

(d) EXCEPTION. - This section shall not apply in the case of an individual who pursuant to an arrangement between the taxpayer and another person, provides services for such other person as an engineer, designer, drafter, computer programmer, systems analyst, or other similarly skilled worker engaged in a similar line of work.

(b) EFFECTIVE DATE. - The amendment made by this section shall apply to remuneration paid and services rendered after December 31, 1986.

Note:

·      "another person" is the client in the traditional job-shop relationship.

·      "taxpayer" is the recruiter, broker, agency, or job shop.

·      "individual", "employee", or "worker" is you.

 

Admittedly, you need to read the treatment to understand what it is saying but it’s not very complicated.  The bottom line is that they may as well have put my name right in the text of section (d).  Moreover, they could only have been more blunt if they would have came out and directly declared me a criminal and non-citizen slave.  Twenty years later, I still can’t believe my eyes.

During 1987, I spent close to $5000 of my ‘pocket change’, and at least 1000 hours of my time writing, printing, and mailing to any senator, congressman, governor, or slug that might listen; none did, and they universally treated me as if I was wasting their time.  I spent countless hours on the L.A. freeways driving to meetings and any and all of the disorganized professional groups who were attempting to mount a campaign against this atrocity.  This, only to discover that our efforts were being easily derailed by a few moles from the brokers who were just beginning to enjoy the windfall from the new declaration of their “freedom”.  Oh, and don’t forget, for all of the time I was spending on this, I was loosing income that I couldn’t bill clients.

After months of struggling it had clearly gotten to be a futile exercise.  The best we could get for all of our trouble is a pronouncement from an IRS mouthpiece that they weren’t going to enforce that provision (read harass engineers and scientists).  This immediately proved to be a lie, and the mere existence of the regulation began to have its impact on my bottom line; this, of course, was the intended effect.

Again, rewind my retirement plans back to 0 and shift them into idle.  If I had any sense, I clearly should have left abandoned engineering and never looked back.

Instead I got busy working 100-hour workweeks.  Then came the L.A. depression of the early 1990s.  Our leaders decided that they didn’t need the all of those extra Air Force bases they had in Southern California, so they were closed; just like that.  The result was economic devastation in the region that rivaled the widely publicized Texas S&L fiasco.  However, because the government caused it, no one gave a shit about all of the young families who lost their homes or street after street of boarded up houses abandoned to the wealthy loan companies who received government funds to “shore up” their windfall.  Again, I lost my retirement.

Years later, after weathering a divorce and the constant struggle trying to build some momentum with my business, I find myself once again beginning to finally pick up some speed.  Then came the .COM bust and the 911 nightmare.  Our leaders decided that all aircraft were grounded for what seemed like an eternity; and long after that, ‘special’ facilities like San Francisco were on security alert for months.  This made access to my customers prohibitively expensive.  Ironically, after what they had done the Government came to the aid of the airlines with billions of our tax dollars … as usual they left me to rot and die while they bailed out their rich, incompetent cronies WITH MY MONEY!  After these events, there went my business but not quite yet all of my retirement and savings.

By this time, I’m thinking that it might be good for a change.  Bye to California, I’ll try Austin for a while.  So I moved, only to find out that this is a place with a highly inflated sense of self-importance and where damn little real engineering work is done.  I’ve never experienced such a hard time finding work.  The rates are 1/3 of what I was earning before the crash, because pay rates here are fixed by the three or four large companies in the area who are in collusion to drive down prices and wages… and this happens because the justice department is all on the take and doesn’t give a fuck about serving anyone or anything but themselves and their rich buddies.

To survive, I was forced to cannibalize my savings and retirement, the last of which was a small IRA.  This came in a year with mammoth expenses and not a single dollar of income.  I filed no return that year thinking that because I didn’t have any income there was no need.  The sleazy government decided that they disagreed.  But they didn’t notify me in time for me to launch a legal objection so when I attempted to get a protest filed with the court I was told I was no longer entitled to due process because the time to file ran out.  Bend over for another $10,000 helping of justice.

So now we come to the present.  After my experience with the CPA world, following the business crash I swore that I’d never enter another accountant’s office again.  But here I am with a new marriage and a boatload of undocumented income, not to mention an expensive new business asset, a piano, which I had no idea how to handle.  After considerable thought I decided that it would be irresponsible NOT to get professional help; a very big mistake.

When we received the forms back I was very optimistic that they were in order.  I had taken all of the years information to Bill Ross, and he came back with results very similar to what I was expecting.  Except that he had neglected to include the contents of Sheryl’s unreported income; $12,700 worth of it. To make matters worse, Ross knew all along this was missing and I didn’t have a clue until he pointed it out in the middle of the audit.  By that time it had become brutally evident that he was representing himself and not me.

This left me stuck in the middle of this disaster trying to defend transactions that have no relationship to anything tax-related (at least the tax-related transactions were poorly documented).  Things I never knew anything about and things my wife had no clue would ever matter to anyone.  The end result is… well, just look around.

I remember reading about the stock market crash before the “great” depression and how there were wealthy bankers and businessmen jumping out of windows when they realized they screwed up and lost everything.  Isn’t it ironic how far we’ve come in 60 years in this country that they now know how to fix that little economic problem; they just steal from the middle class (who doesn’t have any say in it, elections are a joke) to cover their asses and it’s “business-as-usual”.  Now when the wealthy fuck up, the poor get to die for the mistakes… isn’t that a clever, tidy solution.

As government agencies go, the FAA is often justifiably referred to as a tombstone agency, though they are hardly alone.  The recent presidential puppet GW Bush and his cronies in their eight years certainly reinforced for all of us that this criticism rings equally true for all of the government.  Nothing changes unless there is a body count (unless it is in the interest of the wealthy sows at the government trough).  In a government full of hypocrites from top to bottom, life is as cheap as their lies and their self-serving laws.

I know I’m hardly the first one to decide I have had all I can stand.  It has always been a myth that people have stopped dying for their freedom in this country, and it isn’t limited to the blacks, and poor immigrants.  I know there have been countless before me and there are sure to be as many after.  But I also know that by not adding my body to the count, I insure nothing will change.  I choose to not keep looking over my shoulder at “big brother” while he strips my carcass, I choose not to ignore what is going on all around me, I choose not to pretend that business as usual won’t continue; I have just had enough.

I can only hope that the numbers quickly get too big to be white washed and ignored that the American zombies wake up and revolt; it will take nothing less.  I would only hope that by striking a nerve that stimulates the inevitable double standard, knee-jerk government reaction that results in more stupid draconian restrictions people wake up and begin to see the pompous political thugs and their mindless minions for what they are.  Sadly, though I spent my entire life trying to believe it wasn’t so, but violence not only is the answer, it is the only answer.  The cruel joke is that the really big chunks of shit at the top have known this all along and have been laughing, at and using this awareness against, fools like me all along.

I saw it written once that the definition of insanity is repeating the same process over and over and expecting the outcome to suddenly be different.  I am finally ready to stop this insanity.  Well, Mr. Big Brother IRS man, let’s try something different; take my pound of flesh and sleep well.

 

The communist creed: From each according to his ability, to each according to his need.

The capitalist creed: From each according to his gullibility, to each according to his greed.

 

Joe Stack (1956-2010)

02/18/2010
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: John Shaw on February 18, 2010, 03:10:17 PM
Yep. Yep.

*Sigh*
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: blackie on February 18, 2010, 03:22:20 PM
The website has been taken down.

Quote
This website has been taken offline due to the sensitive nature of the events that transpired in Texas this morning and in compliance with a request from the FBI.

Regards,
T35 Hosting
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: Rillion on February 18, 2010, 03:28:35 PM
....and the taxes of Texans are going to pay for this building to be repaired.  Thanks, Mr. Stack. 
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: blackie on February 18, 2010, 03:34:39 PM
Plane owned by Joseph Andrew Stack, 53


I guess it wasn't stolen.
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: davann on February 18, 2010, 03:51:04 PM
It is going to extremely interesting to see if how the propaganda arm is going to spin him into some crazy person with such a well thought out and clear open letter making it's way around the net. They have a much harder time this time compared to Tim McVeigh.

I do see the enemy (FBI) shut down the link already. To late, suckers.
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: davann on February 18, 2010, 03:58:29 PM
....and the taxes of Texans are going to pay for this building to be repaired.  Thanks, Mr. Stack. 

I doubt it is actually owned by the IRS. More likely it is leased and the company that owns it has it insured. There are some serious tax breaks in leasing versus owning that I am sure the IRS knows about.

Wait... does the IRS pay taxes to itself?
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: AL the Inconspicuous on February 18, 2010, 04:16:27 PM

...

... mixed feelings ...

... must suppress urge to call him a "hero" ...

.... must suppress urge to start taking flying lessons ...

Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: Turd Ferguson on February 18, 2010, 04:19:07 PM
So should I just take my clothes of now before i get to the airport and put the funnel up my ass to make it easier for them? :roll:
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: blackie on February 18, 2010, 04:25:07 PM
.... must suppress urge to start taking flying lessons ...



I was pricing flight schools this morning, before this happened. It's not that expensive.
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: anarchir on February 18, 2010, 04:30:15 PM
.... must suppress urge to start taking flying lessons ...



I was pricing flight schools this morning, before this happened. It's not that expensive.

I'm pretty sure it is. You need many hours of experience before you can get your license.
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: ForumTroll on February 18, 2010, 04:34:34 PM
TIME TO RAID THE MILITIAS AND BAN THE BLACK RIFLES AGAIN
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: blackie on February 18, 2010, 04:35:11 PM
.... must suppress urge to start taking flying lessons ...



I was pricing flight schools this morning, before this happened. It's not that expensive.

I'm pretty sure it is. You need many hours of experience before you can get your license.
If by "many" you mean 40 hours of flight time.
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: AL the Inconspicuous on February 18, 2010, 04:35:49 PM
The important thing is that they're not getting a penny from me in taxes.  Ever.  Not for a cigarette, not for a cup of coffee (tariffs), not even for fuel tax if I can help it!

You can only fly a plane into a building once, and most people will not follow your example.  But if you practice tax resistance throughout your whole life, then you can teach others to do the same thing, and you just might live to see some better opportunities for freedom emerging (secession, seasteading, etc).
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: Harry Tuttle on February 18, 2010, 04:36:58 PM
The important thing is that they're not getting a penny from me in taxes.  Ever.  Not for a cigarette, not for a cup of coffee (tariffs), not even for fuel tax if I can help it!

You can only fly a plane into a building once, and most people will not follow your example.  But if you practice tax resistance throughout your whole life, then you can teach others to do the same thing, and you just might live to see some better opportunities for freedom emerging (secession, seasteading, etc).


Inspiring.
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: Diogenes The Cynic on February 18, 2010, 07:14:59 PM
The plane was too small.
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: fatcat on February 18, 2010, 07:37:17 PM
Still doesn't top the killdozer.

cept for setting his house on fire first. that was pretty bad ass.

Its lucky this guys name wasn't Muhammed, otherwise private flight would be totally fucked right now
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: Rillion on February 18, 2010, 07:46:00 PM
Still doesn't top the killdozer.

cept for setting his house on fire first. that was pretty bad ass.

With his wife and 12 year old daughter inside (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/feb/18/austin-plane-suicide-manifesto), apparently.    Not so badass.
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: John Shaw on February 18, 2010, 07:46:17 PM
Still doesn't top the killdozer.

cept for setting his house on fire first. that was pretty bad ass.

Its lucky this guys name wasn't Muhammed, otherwise private flight would be totally fucked right now

Naw, the official word in the media so far has been "This is not terrorism, this can't be terrorism, terrorism doesn't happen now that Barack is in charge. This is a guy who hated the IRS."
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: fatcat on February 18, 2010, 08:24:40 PM
Still doesn't top the killdozer.

cept for setting his house on fire first. that was pretty bad ass.

Its lucky this guys name wasn't Muhammed, otherwise private flight would be totally fucked right now

Naw, the official word in the media so far has been "This is not terrorism, this can't be terrorism, terrorism doesn't happen now that Barack is in charge. This is a guy who hated the IRS."

Hopefully this shit will all just blow over without inspiring any copycats or government backlash.

Its interesting to see the different coverage this is getting (http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2010/2/18/833485/-Suicide-Plane-Attack-on-Austin-IRS-BuildingTerrorism).

Quote
But the open question is will he be pegged as a crank from the left (with his criticism of Health Care, and "GW Bush the Puppet President"), or a crank from the right (and his rabid criticism of a currupt government and unfair taxation ala the Tea Party?) - or does his case completely fail to fit into that framing?

note "or is he a libertarian hero" is not one of the options.

Anyone with aspirations of being a libertarian "hero" should definately read over that kind of media response.

If you mention taxes you'll be a right wing nut, if you mention personal liberties you'll be a left wing nut, and if you ever went on a muslim site theres a good chance they'll call you a jihadi nut.

Either way you aren't gonna "wake up" anyone cause 90% of people aren't even going to read the note you leave, just however it gets paraphrased by whatever media outlets, and that will be whatever makes the most compelling story.

Mentioning your philosophical ramblings that most people have never heard of will not be a part of that.
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: Diogenes The Cynic on February 18, 2010, 08:30:12 PM
Its sad the FBI so quickly repressed this mans first amendment right to freedom of the press by having his website shut down.
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: blackie on February 18, 2010, 08:49:36 PM
The plane was too small.
Meh. It's not size that matters. The fire did a lot of damage.
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: Turd Ferguson on February 18, 2010, 08:58:37 PM
".....................after setting fire to his house and publishing a rambling suicide manifesto on the internet."


I would hardly call it a RAMBLING letter. Looked to me like a very well thought out reason and explanation as to why he did what he did. Was it justified? Maybe not, but id hardly call it RAMBLING.

I guess to the dumbed down masses who are used to 2 second sound bytes it would be considered rambling though.


Ill shut up not before im accused of rambling.
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: davann on February 18, 2010, 09:11:15 PM
Still doesn't top the killdozer.

cept for setting his house on fire first. that was pretty bad ass.

With his wife and 12 year old daughter inside (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/feb/18/austin-plane-suicide-manifesto), apparently.    Not so badass.

I read that two women showed up at the house before the fire department and went nuts, crying and such,  claiming ti was their house. This sounds like a first stab at making the guy look evil.
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: Ecolitan on February 18, 2010, 09:12:18 PM
It was a little rambling.  Pretty good for the circumstances.
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: blackie on February 18, 2010, 09:15:48 PM
I read that two women showed up at the house before the fire department and went nuts, crying and such,  claiming ti was their house. This sounds like a first stab at making the guy look evil.
Flying a plane into a building on purpose makes you look evil.
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: Cognitive Dissident on February 18, 2010, 11:16:03 PM
I'm surprised it's taken so long.  I predict more violence--especially against the IRS.

I read that two women showed up at the house before the fire department and went nuts, crying and such,  claiming ti was their house. This sounds like a first stab at making the guy look evil.
Flying a plane into a building on purpose makes you look evil.

Meh.  It would be evil if the building housed productive people who don't actively steal from others.
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: Harry Tuttle on February 18, 2010, 11:16:57 PM
If anyone wanting revenge against the IRS reads this, I respectfully request that you take care not to harm anyone - especially your own family. If you just take out an IRS building while no human beings are present then you will be better received. Also, try to stay alive so that you can go after another IRS building.

Besides, if they catch you alive then your money problems are over, as they will put you into a prison for the rest of your life.

IMPORTANT NOTE: This post was intended as tactless humor and should in no way be construed as advocating or soliciting acts against the IRS. It is highly unlikely that I would actually cheer until I was hoarse in the event of destruction of government offices.
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: Skooma on February 18, 2010, 11:56:55 PM
lawl pwned.

I wonder what regs the governments is going to cook up in response to this this time.
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: John Shaw on February 18, 2010, 11:58:55 PM
lawl pwned.

I wonder what regs the governments is going to cook up in response to this this time.


Everything described in your second sentence sort of negates everything you said in your first sentence.
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: Harry Tuttle on February 19, 2010, 12:17:15 AM
Everything described in your second sentence sort of negates everything you said in your first sentence.

Too true.

 :cry:

Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: Diogenes The Cynic on February 19, 2010, 12:43:47 AM
Guess he blew his stack.

Got Fed-up.
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: davann on February 19, 2010, 11:01:07 AM
I read that two women showed up at the house before the fire department and went nuts, crying and such,  claiming ti was their house. This sounds like a first stab at making the guy look evil.
Flying a plane into a building on purpose makes you look evil.

Maybe. Maybe not. Depends on who is in the building. The dude was fucked with for 30+ years. Seems like a reasonable response to me. When you get messed with year and year out for 30 years by the IRS your opinion might change. The guy seemed to want to believe violence was not the way to go for many years. In the end, it was the only way for him to defend himself.
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: John Shaw on February 19, 2010, 11:06:26 AM
In the end, it was the only way for him to defend himself.

How in the name of Jupiter's BALLS did he defend himself?!?!?

He kinda died.

That isn't self defense. That is murder/suicide.

If he wanted to "defend" himself, he would have gone after all the specific IRS agents who harassed him, rather than thinking like a collectivist and attacking en masse people who did him no direct harm.

And you'd still be hard pressed to justify his behavior as sane or reasonable.
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: Diogenes The Cynic on February 19, 2010, 12:43:02 PM



If he wanted to "defend" himself, he would have gone after all the specific IRS agents who harassed him, rather than thinking like a collectivist and attacking en masse people who did him no direct harm.

And you'd still be hard pressed to justify his behavior as sane or reasonable.

John, thats not entirely reasonable. The IRS is composed of a myriad of self-supporting parts.

I thought for a while that it wold be pretty cool to pay taxes next time with a sack of pennies. I would think that the first thing the taxman on the other end of the desk would say is "It wasn't my fault....."

My response is, then whose fault is it? You are just another cog in a wheel that charged me. If you are not "personally responsible" then who is? If its collective responsibility, then everyone is equally responsible.

I imagine thats what this guy was thinking.
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: blackie on February 19, 2010, 12:50:46 PM
The guy went nuts, and lashed out.
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: davann on February 19, 2010, 01:03:52 PM
In the end, it was the only way for him to defend himself.

How in the name of Jupiter's BALLS did he defend himself?!?!?

He kinda died.

That isn't self defense. That is murder/suicide.



Ah, but it is self defense. If a bully messes with a kid at school for years and the kid finally stands up to him knowing full well he is going to get his ass kicked the action of confronting the bully is self defense. That fact the kid will get hurt does not negate the self defense part.

As far as thinking collectively well that is the fault of governement schools. We all can move past that idea but not everyone can. In the end, it was the governments own indoctranation program that left this man with no other option.
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: Cognitive Dissident on February 19, 2010, 01:08:40 PM
I thought for a while that it wold be pretty cool to pay taxes next time with a sack of pennies. I would think that the first thing the taxman on the other end of the desk would say is "It wasn't my fault....."

LOLz...a sack of pennies launched by cannon, perhaps?

;-)
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: fatcat on February 19, 2010, 01:12:50 PM
In the end, it was the only way for him to defend himself.

How in the name of Jupiter's BALLS did he defend himself?!?!?

He kinda died.

That isn't self defense. That is murder/suicide.



Ah, but it is self defense. If a bully messes with a kid at school for years and the kid finally stands up to him knowing full well he is going to get his ass kicked the action of confronting the bully is self defense. That fact the kid will get hurt does not negate the self defense part.

As far as thinking collectively well that is the fault of governement schools. We all can move past that idea but not everyone can. In the end, it was the governments own indoctranation program that left this man with no other option.

Isn't collective thinking the problem?

Government isn't a person. There isn't any one person responsible for government.

The fact that the harm done by government is impersonal and diffuse, is not an excuse to react personally and specifically.

How far do you take it? Do you get to attack anyone who ever paid taxes (After all, they're helping the government operate).

Now you might draw the line at that, because people are paying under duress, but when you start talking about personal responsibility for the crimes of an amorphous super group like government, its extremely shaky ground to kill someone you've never met, someone whos never directly harmed you and call it self defense.

You'd have to be insanely sure of yourself to start killing random government employees. Emphasis on insanely.
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: John Shaw on February 19, 2010, 01:44:47 PM
Ah, but it is self defense. If a bully messes with a kid at school for years and the kid finally stands up to him knowing full well he is going to get his ass kicked the action of confronting the bully is self defense.

And if the kid goes to the bully's house and lights his house on fire, killing his sister and parents? I call bullshit.


Isn't collective thinking the problem?

Yes. Exactly my point. Thank you.
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: davann on February 19, 2010, 01:58:36 PM
In the end, it was the only way for him to defend himself.

How in the name of Jupiter's BALLS did he defend himself?!?!?

He kinda died.

That isn't self defense. That is murder/suicide.



Ah, but it is self defense. If a bully messes with a kid at school for years and the kid finally stands up to him knowing full well he is going to get his ass kicked the action of confronting the bully is self defense. That fact the kid will get hurt does not negate the self defense part.

As far as thinking collectively well that is the fault of government schools. We all can move past that idea but not everyone can. In the end, it was the governments own indoctrination program that left this man with no other option.

Isn't collective thinking the problem?

In this specific case, only slightly.


Government isn't a person. There isn't any one person responsible for government.

Governmental departments are made up of individuals. Each is individually responsible for partaking in a corrupt and violent system. They are guilty by simple membership. It is a great disservice to these individuals to not put the blame where is belongs; on them. Personal responsibility is the foundation of freedom and liberty.
 

The fact that the harm done by government is impersonal and diffuse, is not an excuse to react personally and specifically.
If the gang bangers in the Bloods are terrorizing my neighborhood doing violence and such and they harm one of my family members I would be perfectly justified to extract justice on any members. Even if the member I catch is not the one that did me harm personally, he/she did do harm to one of my neighbors.


How far do you take it? Do you get to attack anyone who ever paid taxes (After all, they're helping the government operate).

Now you might draw the line at that, because people are paying under duress, but when you start talking about personal responsibility for the crimes of an amorphous super group like government, its extremely shaky ground to kill someone you've never met, someone whos never directly harmed you and call it self defense.

You'd have to be insanely sure of yourself to start killing random government employees. Emphasis on insanely.

You allow common sense draw the line. Of course you would not go after the rape victim instead of the rapist. Federal employees are rapists. They deserve what ever violence the victims can muster against them. I do not need to know a rapist personally to react when I see them raping.

Of course, I go the Shaw route. Avoid interaction when ever possible. It is still interesting to see the way those on the other end of the spectrum choose to deal with the rapists and I would never discourage them in their methods nor believe they are insane.
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: fatcat on February 19, 2010, 02:09:34 PM
If the gang bangers in the Bloods are terrorizing my neighborhood doing violence and such and they harm one of my family members I would be perfectly justified to extract justice on any members. Even if the member I catch is not the one that did me harm personally, he/she did do harm to one of my neighbors.

Any members?

What if the bloods had an accountancy department, and lunch room workers, and cleaners who cleaned their buildings, and an IT guy who comes in to fix the wireless network when it goes down and so on.

They all fair game too?

Governments are distinct from gangs in a very key capacity. They have legitimacy, which means they have the kind blue/white collar employees a million miles removed from a violent gang.

people who ordinarily would never harm people, and never directly harm anyone in their job, and don't think they're causing anyone harm indirectly.

Its very easy to draw the line when you're not on the side that says its okay to kill this person.

Quote
You allow common sense draw the line. Of course you would not go after the rape victim instead of the rapist

This is not an issue of common sense, its a very complex issue of moral responsibility.

You can refuse to pay taxes, and you can choose not to make any money so you have nothing to pay, so its not as clear cut as Employees = rapists, tax payers = victims.

What if some Iraqi guy decides that anyone who helped fund the invasion of Iraq is culpable. In that case he can take down any New York tower block he pleases and be pretty damn sure he's hitting 99% people who put money towards the destruction of his house and the death of his family.

Maybe you think he's just a nut killing the wrong people, just like other people would think the same about you. the point being if you're not pro-actively killing anyone, you don't have a chance of killing the wrong people.

Quote
It is a great disservice to these individuals to not put the blame where is belongs; on them. Personal responsibility is the foundation of freedom and liberty.

So anyone who doesn't refuse to pay all taxes and refuse any government interaction is responsible?

There are tens of thousands, possibly hundreds of thousands of people who never pay any taxes, many of them completely with the states blessing, so its not a question of you can't refuse or you'll be killed.

So why do individuals outside the government departments get a pass on aiding corruption?
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: davann on February 19, 2010, 02:23:57 PM
If the gang bangers in the Bloods are terrorizing my neighborhood doing violence and such and they harm one of my family members I would be perfectly justified to extract justice on any members. Even if the member I catch is not the one that did me harm personally, he/she did do harm to one of my neighbors.

Any members?

What if the bloods had an accountancy department, and lunch room workers, and cleaners who cleaned their buildings, and an IT guy who comes in to fix the wireless network when it goes down and so on.

They all fair game too?

Its very easy to draw the line when you're not on the side that says its okay to kill this person.

I view the feds as the enemy. That is not just bs talk. They are the enemy, like al-queda. Support staff in the enemy army is fair game. Granted, it is extremely easy to draw lines when not pulling the trigger myslelf. My point is, I do not see the guys that do pull the trigger as the bad guys. Who the bad guys are is obvious.
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: libertylover on February 19, 2010, 04:49:13 PM
Push people to a psychotic break and what do you expect will happen?  I expect more events like this will happen as more people are pushed over the edge.   Just because I understand the why does not mean I agree with the results.

The IRS paperwork and rules are so complex that I doubt anyone in the country is 100% in the clear from being maliciously prosecuted.  It is also a tool used to stamp out political decent.  The United States has plenty of political prisoners they just are not seen that way because of the complex network of laws, rules and regulations which makes everyone an outlaw.   

Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: AL the Inconspicuous on February 19, 2010, 04:50:32 PM
Tyrants can act collectively to initiate aggression against you, but you cannot retaliate against any of them because no one is individually guilty?  Oh, how convenient!  Now any 2+ people can get away with murder just as long as they fire at the same time!

Real justice is a science that would emerge empirically from multiple legal authorities (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polycentric_law) all competing with each-other based on their reputation for effectiveness and impartiality.  A system that fails to punish people for the part they play in a criminal enterprise will only encourage criminals to pull of their crimes in a way that would split responsibility, thus creating a definite competitive disadvantage for the system as a whole.

Therefore anti-government terrorism is in fact justified (though I do strongly discourage it for tactical reasons).
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: fatcat on February 19, 2010, 06:36:31 PM
Tyrants can act collectively to initiate aggression against you, but you cannot retaliate against any of them because no one is individually guilty?

The only guy you get to retaliate against (morally), and with any degree of practicality, is the end guy. The guy with the iron fist who kicks in your door and tries to imprison you and kill you if you resist.

Without that guy all the other stuff means nothing, not to mention that guy is the only one personally responsible for attempting to assault you.

If they send other guys, then those guys become responsible.

Even then its a dumb idea.

If you're in a situation where the iron fist is coming down on you, you've fucked up. Crushing people who don't fall in line is exactly what the government is best at.

Smart fuckers don't play the game the government wants them to play. Smart fuckers like Ingvar Kamprad pay virtually no tax. Smart fuckers don't burn down their house and fly into a building.
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: AL the Inconspicuous on February 19, 2010, 07:39:10 PM
The "end guy" is an idiot "just following orders" - six billion others can easily take his place.  It's the thinkers that bear the greatest responsibility for tyranny, the proverbial Atlases who refuse to "shrug" off the thugs who harnesses their minds for evil ends.
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: blackie on February 19, 2010, 09:13:31 PM
The only guy you get to retaliate against (morally), and with any degree of practicality, is the end guy. The guy with the iron fist who kicks in your door and tries to imprison you and kill you if you resist.
If your intent is to win, you need to "hit where it hurts".

http://www.insurgentdesire.org.uk/hti.htm
Quote
The principle is that in any form of conflict, if you want to win, you must hit your adversary where it hurts.

I have to explain that when I talk about "hitting where it hurts" I am not necessarily referring to physical blows or to any other form of physical violence. For example, in oral debate, "hitting where it hurts" would mean making the arguments to which your opponents position is most vulnerable. In a presidential election, "hitting where it hurts" would mean winning from your opponent the states that have the most electoral votes. Still, in discussing this principle I will use the analogy of physical combat, because it is vivid and clear.

If a man punches you, you can't defend yourself by hitting back at his fist, because you can't hurt the man that way. In order to win the fight, you have to hit him where it hurts. That means you have to go behind the fist and hit the sensitive and vulnerable parts of the man's body.

Suppose a bulldozer belonging to a logging company has been tearing up the woods near your home and you want to stop it. It is the blade of the bulldozer that rips the earth and knocks trees over, but it would be a waste of time to take a sledgehammer to the blade. if you spent a long, hard day working on the blade with the sledge, you might succeed in damaging it enough so that it became useless. But, in comparison with the rest of the bulldozer, the blade is relatively inexpensive and easy to replace. The blade is only the "fist" with which the bulldozer hits the earth. To defeat the machine you must go behind the "fist" and attack the bulldozers vital parts. The engine, for example, can be ruined with very little expenditure of time and effort by means well known to many radicals.

Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: fatcat on February 19, 2010, 09:31:55 PM
The only guy you get to retaliate against (morally), and with any degree of practicality, is the end guy. The guy with the iron fist who kicks in your door and tries to imprison you and kill you if you resist.
If your intent is to win, you need to "hit where it hurts".

I don't agree with the broad strategy and don't think its been proven.

Did the IRA get anywhere bombing soft targets?

The issue would be even more complicated if its an internal thing.

If we're talking about an occupation, than an insurgency has a much smaller goal than if it was on home ground. I.e. get the military to leave, rather than to dissolve a whole government.

Assuming the government did a good job of painting "insurgents" as bad guys, you're not gonna do a fucking thing to pressure the government out, all the pressure is going to be on a crackdown.

Presidential candidates don't dick swing on being tough on terrorism for no reason.

All you'd get is a sustained conflict, till eventually the less powerful side gives up, generally when economic benefits kick in.

As far as I can tell people here are just flapping about who "deserves it", in which case its only the fist part of the government, and even then I wouldn't agree until they're actually kicking down your door.

and even then I wouldn't agree with it because getting "who deserves it", means getting killed or if you're lucky lifetime incarceration. And it won't do a damn thing to solve anyone's problems.
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: Cognitive Dissident on February 19, 2010, 09:37:49 PM
To the whiners: The IRS employees know what they're doing.  I won't cry for them.

To the libertarians calling this "terrorism:" Terrorism involves killing innocents.  Whether you support it or not, this was not terrorism.  It was guerilla warfare.  There's a huge difference.  The state and the media won't see the difference, though, which is why it isn't productive.
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: The ghost of a ghost of a ghost on February 19, 2010, 09:49:33 PM
I have a friend that's a tax appraiser in Arlington, Va. (D.C.)  He sent me a text after the plane crash and said he should get hazard pay for the dangers inherent in his job.

His joke points out that he, like other tax villians (IRS agents) know the evils of their ways, but do it nonetheless for a fucking PAYCHECK.   

I don't think you have to do a whole hell of a lot of mental gymnastics to see taxers as the original aggressors. 

That being said, I would never perform or condone such an action.
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: blackie on February 19, 2010, 09:52:42 PM
To the libertarians calling this "terrorism:" Terrorism involves killing innocents.  Whether you support it or not, this was not terrorism.
Terrorism doesn't need to involve innocents. This seems to fit most definitions of terrorism perfectly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism
Quote
Terrorism is the systematic use of terror especially as a means of coercion.[1] At present, there is no internationally agreed definition of terrorism.[2][3] Common definitions of terrorism refer only to those violent acts which are intended to create fear (terror), are perpetrated for an ideological goal (as opposed to a lone attack), and deliberately target or disregard the safety of non-combatants (civilians).

IRS office workers are not combatants. They are civilians.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian
Quote
A civilian under international humanitarian law is a person who is not a member of his or her country's armed forces. The term is also often used colloquially to refer to people who are not members of a particular profession or occupation, especially by law enforcement agencies, which often use rank structures similar to those of military units.
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: Rillion on February 19, 2010, 09:52:54 PM
I have a friend that's a tax appraiser in Arlington, Va. (D.C.)  He sent me a text after the plane crash and said he should get hazard pay for the dangers inherent in his job.

His joke points out that he, like other tax villians (IRS agents) know the evils of their ways, but do it nonetheless for a fucking PAYCHECK.   

I don't think you have to do a whole hell of a lot of mental gymnastics to see taxers as the original aggressors. 

That being said, I would never perform or condone such an action.

My uncle works for the IRS, and I approve of this message.  
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: blackie on February 19, 2010, 10:04:12 PM
I have a friend that's a tax appraiser in Arlington, Va. (D.C.)  He sent me a text after the plane crash and said he should get hazard pay for the dangers inherent in his job.

His joke points out that he, like other tax villians (IRS agents) know the evils of their ways, but do it nonetheless for a fucking PAYCHECK.   

I don't think you have to do a whole hell of a lot of mental gymnastics to see taxers as the original aggressors. 

That being said, I would never perform or condone such an action.

My uncle works for the IRS, and I approve of this message.  

Do y'all tell these people how evil they are?
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: Cognitive Dissident on February 19, 2010, 10:11:52 PM
To the libertarians calling this "terrorism:" Terrorism involves killing innocents.  Whether you support it or not, this was not terrorism.
Terrorism doesn't need to invovle innocents. This seems to fit most definitions of terrorism perfectly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism
Quote
Terrorism is the systematic use of terror especially as a means of coercion.[1] At present, there is no internationally agreed definition of terrorism.[2][3] Common definitions of terrorism refer only to those violent acts which are intended to create fear (terror), are perpetrated for an ideological goal (as opposed to a lone attack), and deliberately target or disregard the safety of non-combatants (civilians).

IRS office workers are not combatants. They are civilians.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian
Quote
A civilian under international humanitarian law is a person who is not a member of his or her country's armed forces. The term is also often used colloquially to refer to people who are not members of a particular profession or occupation, especially by law enforcement agencies, which often use rank structures similar to those of military units.

1) Wikipedia is statist shit.

2) Did it ever occur to you that statists would want to confuse the difference between terrorism and guerilla warfare?  Think about the people who this government recognizes as the "the founders."  Think about how difficult it is to objectively view them in a good light, given their definitions.

3) Calling tax-eating state thugs "civilians," and more specifically the ones who are actively stealing said taxes, is a copout that only a statist could ignore.  Referencing "law" to resolve such a question is idiocy.

BTW: There was no coercion in his action.  His was a response to coercion.
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: ForumTroll on February 19, 2010, 10:16:44 PM
I would just like to say that it is my belief that those who participates in the process of initiating force aren't innocent.
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: The ghost of a ghost of a ghost on February 19, 2010, 10:17:28 PM
I have a friend that's a tax appraiser in Arlington, Va. (D.C.)  He sent me a text after the plane crash and said he should get hazard pay for the dangers inherent in his job.

His joke points out that he, like other tax villians (IRS agents) know the evils of their ways, but do it nonetheless for a fucking PAYCHECK.   

I don't think you have to do a whole hell of a lot of mental gymnastics to see taxers as the original aggressors. 

That being said, I would never perform or condone such an action.

My uncle works for the IRS, and I approve of this message.  

Do y'all tell these people how evil they are?

I do.  He thinks it funny.  We were roommates in college.

I doubt I would  befriend him now, knowing that he's a tax man, if we hadn't already established a friendship prior.  

He's human, just all kinds of fucking wrong.  

I have my faults too.
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: blackie on February 19, 2010, 10:20:54 PM
I would just like to say that it is my belief that those who participates in the process of initiating force aren't innocent.
Then anyone who pays taxes isn't innocent. They fund it.
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: ForumTroll on February 19, 2010, 10:23:02 PM
I would just like to say that it is my belief that those who participates in the process of initiating force aren't innocent.
Then anyone who pays taxes isn't innocent. They fund it.

It's a real pickle, isn't it.
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: The ghost of a ghost of a ghost on February 19, 2010, 10:23:52 PM
I would just like to say that it is my belief that those who participates in the process of initiating force aren't innocent.
Then anyone who pays taxes isn't innocent. They fund it.

I think the payers could claim duress.  
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: Cognitive Dissident on February 19, 2010, 10:28:11 PM
I would just like to say that it is my belief that those who participates in the process of initiating force aren't innocent.
Then anyone who pays taxes isn't innocent. They fund it.

I think the payers could claim duress.  

Damned straight they're under duress!  If you've been filing and you stop, they'll be at your door eventually, and any appearance of civility will be merely pretense on their part.
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: blackie on February 19, 2010, 10:28:31 PM
To the libertarians calling this "terrorism:" Terrorism involves killing innocents.  Whether you support it or not, this was not terrorism.
Terrorism doesn't need to invovle innocents. This seems to fit most definitions of terrorism perfectly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism
Quote
Terrorism is the systematic use of terror especially as a means of coercion.[1] At present, there is no internationally agreed definition of terrorism.[2][3] Common definitions of terrorism refer only to those violent acts which are intended to create fear (terror), are perpetrated for an ideological goal (as opposed to a lone attack), and deliberately target or disregard the safety of non-combatants (civilians).

IRS office workers are not combatants. They are civilians.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian
Quote
A civilian under international humanitarian law is a person who is not a member of his or her country's armed forces. The term is also often used colloquially to refer to people who are not members of a particular profession or occupation, especially by law enforcement agencies, which often use rank structures similar to those of military units.

1) Wikipedia is statist shit.

2) Did it ever occur to you that statists would want to confuse the difference between terrorism and guerilla warfare?  Think about the people who this government recognizes as the "the founders."  Think about how difficult it is to objectively view them in a good light, given their definitions.

3) Calling tax-eating state thugs "civilians," and more specifically the ones who are actively stealing said taxes, is a copout that only a statist could ignore.  Referencing "law" to resolve such a question is idiocy.

BTW: There was no coercion in his action.  His was a response to coercion.
:lol:
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: blackie on February 19, 2010, 10:29:07 PM
I would just like to say that it is my belief that those who participates in the process of initiating force aren't innocent.
Then anyone who pays taxes isn't innocent. They fund it.

I think the payers could claim duress.  

Damned straight they're under duress!  If you've been filing and you stop, they'll be at your door eventually.
Oh, the "just following orders" defense.
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: Cognitive Dissident on February 19, 2010, 10:31:42 PM
I would just like to say that it is my belief that those who participates in the process of initiating force aren't innocent.
Then anyone who pays taxes isn't innocent. They fund it.

I think the payers could claim duress.  

Damned straight they're under duress!  If you've been filing and you stop, they'll be at your door eventually.
Oh, the "just following orders" defense.

Being the victim of armed robbery ≠ being a Nazi prison guard.
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: blackie on February 19, 2010, 10:32:46 PM
I would just like to say that it is my belief that those who participates in the process of initiating force aren't innocent.
Then anyone who pays taxes isn't innocent. They fund it.

It's a real pickle, isn't it.
It sucks that I am a part of the problem.
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: Cognitive Dissident on February 19, 2010, 10:37:50 PM
I would just like to say that it is my belief that those who participates in the process of initiating force aren't innocent.
Then anyone who pays taxes isn't innocent. They fund it.

I think the payers could claim duress.  

Damned straight they're under duress!  If you've been filing and you stop, they'll be at your door eventually.
Oh, the "just following orders" defense.

Being the victim of armed robbery ≠ being a Nazi prison guard.
What do you think would happen to the Nazi prison guard who doesn't follow orders?

Maybe he shouldn't have volunteered.  Further, at the point of murder in imprisonment of random Jews, I'd think he should have re-evaluated his options.  I'd like to think I would have.
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: blackie on February 19, 2010, 10:44:57 PM
I would just like to say that it is my belief that those who participates in the process of initiating force aren't innocent.
Then anyone who pays taxes isn't innocent. They fund it.

I think the payers could claim duress.  

Damned straight they're under duress!  If you've been filing and you stop, they'll be at your door eventually.
Oh, the "just following orders" defense.

Being the victim of armed robbery ≠ being a Nazi prison guard.
What do you think would happen to the Nazi prison guard who doesn't follow orders?

Maybe he shouldn't have volunteered.  Further, at the point of murder in imprisonment of random Jews, I'd think he should have re-evaluated his options.  I'd like to think I would have.
And maybe taxpayers shouldn't volunteer for a job if they know their money will be used to fund evil stuff. And after the murder and imprisonment of random brown people around the world, you would think taxpayers would re-evalutate their options. But they don't. They just keep funding it.
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: Cognitive Dissident on February 19, 2010, 10:51:12 PM
I would just like to say that it is my belief that those who participates in the process of initiating force aren't innocent.
Then anyone who pays taxes isn't innocent. They fund it.

I think the payers could claim duress.  

Damned straight they're under duress!  If you've been filing and you stop, they'll be at your door eventually.
Oh, the "just following orders" defense.

Being the victim of armed robbery ≠ being a Nazi prison guard.
What do you think would happen to the Nazi prison guard who doesn't follow orders?

Maybe he shouldn't have volunteered.  Further, at the point of murder in imprisonment of random Jews, I'd think he should have re-evaluated his options.  I'd like to think I would have.
And maybe taxpayers shouldn't volunteer for a job if they know their money will be used to fund evil stuff. And after the murder and imprisonment of random brown people around the world, you would think taxpayers would re-evalutate their options. But they don't. They just keep funding it.

I didn't volunteer for anything.  I didn't even file until I was coerced.  You probably believe they "volunteer" because the fed call it voluntary.  Try producing wealth living with your assets seized.
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: blackie on February 19, 2010, 10:58:06 PM
 Try producing wealth living with your assets seized.
Hide your assets.
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: The ghost of a ghost of a ghost on February 19, 2010, 11:30:42 PM
Then you're just playing a tax version of the game "whack a mole".

[youtube=425,350]<object width="640" height="505"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/D0n8N98mpes&hl=en_US&fs=1&color1=0x234900&color2=0x4e9e00"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/D0n8N98mpes&hl=en_US&fs=1&color1=0x234900&color2=0x4e9e00" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="505"></embed></object>[/youtube]
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: The ghost of a ghost of a ghost on February 19, 2010, 11:38:42 PM
Or for Libman:

[youtube=425,350]<object width="640" height="505"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Q_udqEp_YR4&hl=en_US&fs=1&color1=0x234900&color2=0x4e9e00"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Q_udqEp_YR4&hl=en_US&fs=1&color1=0x234900&color2=0x4e9e00" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="505"></embed></object>[/youtube]
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: Cognitive Dissident on February 19, 2010, 11:43:23 PM
 Try producing wealth living with your assets seized.
Hide your assets.

Too late.
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: blackie on February 19, 2010, 11:54:28 PM
http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/02/19/texas.plane.crash/index.html?hpt=T1

Austin, Texas (CNN) -- The man who flew an airplane into a building housing an Internal Revenue Service office may have replaced some of its seats with a drum of fuel to cause maximum damage, a law enforcement official familiar with the investigation said Friday.

The official, who would not speak on the record because it is an ongoing case, said investigators have determined that the Piper Cherokee PA-28 had several seats removed and that a fuel drum was missing from the airport from which Andrew Joseph "Joe" Stack III took off Thursday morning.

"I think there is a good chance he might have put it on his plane," said the official, who cautioned that investigators were still working that lead and sifting through the crash site.

The single-engine plane has a fuel tank capacity of 38 gallons and is equipped with four seats, according to the Web site risingup.com.
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: AL the Inconspicuous on February 20, 2010, 12:13:49 AM
Or for Libman:  [...]

Cross-posted to a vegan forum I'm trolling (http://vegweb.com/index.php?topic=31390.60).  :lol:


Anyway, back to the thread's topic.  You know which Austin TX radio personality brought a great emotional flavor to the live coverage of this breaking story?  That's right, Alex Jones [BT] (http://tracker.concen.org/torrents.php?cat=47).  :twisted:
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: rookie on February 20, 2010, 08:27:24 AM
There should be serious dialogue in the media regarding motive.

There should have been more serious dialogue regarding motive after 9/11.




To me, both events act as red flags that government needs to be reformed.

I expect Things like this will probably keep happening periodicly until we all sit down and have that discussion.



Quote
The capitalist creed: From each according to his gullibility, to each according to his greed



I don't like that too much :/

I would prefer:  From each according to his ability; to each according to his ambition.
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: fatcat on February 20, 2010, 09:42:24 AM
I would just like to say that it is my belief that those who participates in the process of initiating force aren't innocent.
Then anyone who pays taxes isn't innocent. They fund it.

I think a problem some people are having is a confusion between culpability, and who deserves to die.

Lets say the state dissolved tomorrow, and everyone who worked for the government gets put on trial. Does everyone deserve the death sentence? Even some guy cleaning offices on minimum wage?

If so, what punishment do tax payers who helped fund the government get?

After all, there are people who refuse to pay tax, so aren't they more innocent than the ones who caved?

Seems a rarther arbitrary line to say someone who worked in a tax office for 20 years deserves death, but someone who paid millions of dollars in taxes over 20 years deserves nothing.

Since killing random IRS employees clearly won't do shit to stop the government, it can't be claimed that its an attempt to stop coercion happening, since you would have to kill a huge percentage of all government workers to break down the apparatus.

The question of innocence needs to be separated from the moral legitimacy of nut killing sprees like this.

People who work for the IRS might not be "innocent", but that doesn't mean they should be killed.
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: Cognitive Dissident on February 20, 2010, 03:16:52 PM
When they stop, they can be forgiven.  Until then, they deserve what they get.
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: fatcat on February 20, 2010, 07:55:00 PM
When they stop, they can be forgiven.  Until then, they deserve what they get.

HUH!?!?!?!

So when theres time and opportunity for proper trials on government crimes, you'll forgive, but premeditated vigilante killings on ANYONE who works for the government, whether they used force or not, is okey dokey?

There are millions of people who work for the government in the US right now.

people working in hospitals, in parks, in water management. People very far removed from the

Pretty much as far removed as anyone else who pays taxes (funds government), or uses roads or benefits indirectly from some sort of subsidy (benefits from government.

To act as if the pencil pushers and park rangers are on the same level as the actual murderers (soldiers, police, prison guards) is insane.

That kind of unilateral collective thinking is the exact same used in the worst government atrocities.

If you're going to claim that not just the jackboots, but anyone in the support chain deserves death, then pretty much everyone would have to day, since when the government gets involved in the economy like it does, we're all part of that chain.
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: Cognitive Dissident on February 20, 2010, 08:45:47 PM
FAIL

While they're actively using the violence of government to steal, they deserve what they get.  If they stop, maybe they should get a chance to change.  Once more, we're not talking about people performing services, we're talking the people doing the stealing.  I haven't opined about the other bureaucrats (and, I've made it clear that I don't necessarily support it--I'm just not feeling badly for them.)  WRT to the collectivism, double-fail.  THEY'RE the collectivists.
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: Rillion on February 20, 2010, 08:51:51 PM
FAIL

While they're actively using the violence of government to steal, they deserve what they get.

So Ron Paul deserves what he gets?
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: Cognitive Dissident on February 20, 2010, 08:58:44 PM
FAIL

While they're actively using the violence of government to steal, they deserve what they get.

So Ron Paul deserves what he gets?

Reading is fundamental.  When Ron Paul works for the IRS actively collecting taxes, he does.  Oh...yeah...he doesn't do that.

Somewhat related: Snipes asks "What's new?" about IRS plane crash (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100219/ap_on_en_mo/us_people_wesley_snipes_taxes;_ylt=AscIulipUjIuPM0U.0_7jXQnHL8C;_ylu=X3oDMTE1cnZqYzliBHBvcwMyBHNlYwN5bi1jaGFubmVsBHNsawNzbmlwZXNhc2tzd2g-)
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: ForumTroll on February 20, 2010, 09:01:26 PM
When Ron Paul works for the IRS actively collecting taxes, he does.  Oh...yeah...he doesn't do that.

But he passes on all the earmark requests for his district. Therefore he helps steal your money.
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: Bill Brasky on February 20, 2010, 09:06:19 PM
You're either with Ken, or against him.  His parallels to the source of that bastardization are, well, unparalleled. 
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: Diogenes The Cynic on February 20, 2010, 09:56:22 PM
Push people to a psychotic break and what do you expect will happen?  I expect more events like this will happen as more people are pushed over the edge.   Just because I understand the why does not mean I agree with the results.

The IRS paperwork and rules are so complex that I doubt anyone in the country is 100% in the clear from being maliciously prosecuted.  It is also a tool used to stamp out political decent.  The United States has plenty of political prisoners they just are not seen that way because of the complex network of laws, rules and regulations which makes everyone an outlaw.   



http://ohmygov.com/blogs/general_news/archive/2010/01/15/irs-commish-doesn-t-do-his-own-taxes-in-a-related-story-secretary-of-agriculture-doesn-t-live-on-a-farm.aspx
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: Cognitive Dissident on February 21, 2010, 01:43:25 AM
When Ron Paul works for the IRS actively collecting taxes, he does.  Oh...yeah...he doesn't do that.

But he passes on all the earmark requests for his district. Therefore he helps steal your money.
Oops, you left out a step.  He then votes against the whole package.  Then again, that doesn't matter anyway, because, once again, he's not collecting any taxes.

FWIW, I also stopped voting for politicians before the last election cycle.
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: blackie on February 21, 2010, 10:04:31 AM
Then again, that doesn't matter anyway, because, once again, he's not collecting any taxes.
Is it OK for me to take out landlords?

Landlords are government property tax collectors, whether they like it or not.

Can I go after cashiers because they collect sales tax from me?
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: ForumTroll on February 21, 2010, 10:41:06 AM
Oops, you left out a step.  He then votes against the whole package.  Then again, that doesn't matter anyway, because, once again, he's not collecting any taxes.

It doesn't matter that he votes against it.
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: libertylover on February 22, 2010, 12:43:49 AM
Push people to a psychotic break and what do you expect will happen?  I expect more events like this will happen as more people are pushed over the edge.   Just because I understand the why does not mean I agree with the results.

The IRS paperwork and rules are so complex that I doubt anyone in the country is 100% in the clear from being maliciously prosecuted.  It is also a tool used to stamp out political decent.  The United States has plenty of political prisoners they just are not seen that way because of the complex network of laws, rules and regulations which makes everyone an outlaw.   


http://ohmygov.com/blogs/general_news/archive/2010/01/15/irs-commish-doesn-t-do-his-own-taxes-in-a-related-story-secretary-of-agriculture-doesn-t-live-on-a-farm.aspx

Now that is funny the head of the IRS has to hire someone to do his taxes because the tax code is too complex. :lol:
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: rookie on February 22, 2010, 02:01:20 AM
Oops, you left out a step.  He then votes against the whole package.  Then again, that doesn't matter anyway, because, once again, he's not collecting any taxes.

It doesn't matter that he votes against it.

why dont'the two of you just get a room?
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: Turd Ferguson on February 22, 2010, 03:24:35 AM
Look, its pretty f--kin simple................. I'll explain it as if you are 10 yrs old

The taxpayers in his district pay a shitload of money to the federal govt......... the federal govt decides they want to spend that money....... RP votes against it (lets give it back to the people that paid it)............. the majority votes to pass the spending bill because they are not like RP, his vote lost,  so since it passed anyway, he might as well get some of that money back to the people in his district that paid it in the first place, and that is done through earmarks. Understand?

If you were a tax payer in his district, would you rather the federal govt take your money and spend it on studying the mating habits of earthworms somewhere in California 1000 miles away , or would you rather at least get some of it back to your town where the money came from in the first place? Sure, it would be better if they didnt take it from you at all, but since they do, would you rather just have a congressman that said "nah, let them spend our money somewhere else" ?
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: AL the Inconspicuous on February 22, 2010, 03:30:40 AM
Good explanation, quickmike.

Ron Paul makes tactical compromises (not ideological ones), and it's amazing how few of them he needed to make to make his presence in the U.S. Congress and the groundbreaking POTUS campaign(s) possible.  He tried being a zero-compromises libertarian before (ex. in 1988) - it didn't do an ounce of good.
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: Turd Ferguson on February 22, 2010, 03:42:42 AM
WORD !!
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: ForumTroll on February 22, 2010, 03:55:07 AM
Look, its pretty f--kin simple................. I'll explain it as if you are 10 yrs old

The taxpayers in his district pay a shitload of money to the federal govt......... the federal govt decides they want to spend that money....... RP votes against it (lets give it back to the people that paid it)............. the majority votes to pass the spending bill because they are not like RP, his vote lost,  so since it passed anyway, he might as well get some of that money back to the people in his district that paid it in the first place, and that is done through earmarks. Understand?

If you were a tax payer in his district, would you rather the federal govt take your money and spend it on studying the mating habits of earthworms somewhere in California 1000 miles away , or would you rather at least get some of it back to your town where the money came from in the first place? Sure, it would be better if they didnt take it from you at all, but since they do, would you rather just have a congressman that said "nah, let them spend our money somewhere else" ?

So two wrongs make a right?
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: Turd Ferguson on February 22, 2010, 09:52:33 AM
Why is it wrong for him to request that the federal government give them their stolen money back?
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: ForumTroll on February 22, 2010, 10:12:04 AM
Why is it wrong for him to request that the federal government give them their stolen money back?

If it was simply issuing checks back to taxpayers, then that would be different. But that's not the case.
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: davann on February 22, 2010, 11:30:10 AM
FAIL

While they're actively using the violence of government to steal, they deserve what they get.

So Ron Paul deserves what he gets?

Absolutely.
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: Pilot_MKN on February 22, 2010, 12:38:47 PM
Look, its pretty f--kin simple................. I'll explain it as if you are 10 yrs old

The taxpayers in his district pay a shitload of money to the federal govt......... the federal govt decides they want to spend that money....... RP votes against it (lets give it back to the people that paid it)............. the majority votes to pass the spending bill because they are not like RP, his vote lost,  so since it passed anyway, he might as well get some of that money back to the people in his district that paid it in the first place, and that is done through earmarks. Understand?

If you were a tax payer in his district, would you rather the federal govt take your money and spend it on studying the mating habits of earthworms somewhere in California 1000 miles away , or would you rather at least get some of it back to your town where the money came from in the first place? Sure, it would be better if they didnt take it from you at all, but since they do, would you rather just have a congressman that said "nah, let them spend our money somewhere else" ?

So two wrongs make a right?

No, but two Wrights made the airplane
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: Cognitive Dissident on February 22, 2010, 01:21:29 PM
Then again, that doesn't matter anyway, because, once again, he's not collecting any taxes.
Is it OK for me to take out landlords?

Landlords are government property tax collectors, whether they like it or not.

Can I go after cashiers because they collect sales tax from me?

You seem confused (as usual.)  Landlords?  I've never had a landlord collect tax from me--they pay them though.  You mean employers, I presume...the one with guns to their heads, just as the guns to our heads.  Same with businesses collecting sales tax.

FAIL again.  Give up while you only look as stupid as you do.
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: blackie on February 22, 2010, 01:35:59 PM
just as the guns to our heads.
I've never had anyone put a gun to my head.
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: Riddler on February 22, 2010, 01:51:58 PM
Quote from: blackie link=topic=32624.msg589936#msg589936



IRS office workers are not combatants. They are civilians.

[/quote


not 100% civillian.
they work for an organization that will come after you w/ guns, if you refuse to pay them.
their employ involves threat of force....
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: Cognitive Dissident on February 22, 2010, 02:09:01 PM
just as the guns to our heads.
I've never had anyone put a gun to my head.

The threat is there, and they also steal bank accounts (and I've seen that.)
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: blackie on February 22, 2010, 02:16:32 PM
just as the guns to our heads.
I've never had anyone put a gun to my head.

The threat is there, and they also steal bank accounts (and I've seen that.)
I have never had anyone threaten to put a gun to my head.
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: Turd Ferguson on February 22, 2010, 02:48:13 PM
Why is it wrong for him to request that the federal government give them their stolen money back?

If it was simply issuing checks back to taxpayers, then that would be different. But that's not the case.

So, under the current circumstances, you think Ron Paul should just not at least get the money back to the district that paid it in? Instead you think he should be principaled and not even try to do what he can?
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: Cognitive Dissident on February 22, 2010, 03:26:17 PM
just as the guns to our heads.
I've never had anyone put a gun to my head.

The threat is there, and they also steal bank accounts (and I've seen that.)
I have never had anyone threaten to put a gun to my head.

Then you're not paying attention, or you're stupid.  Judging by this thread, I have my own opinion.
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: Riddler on February 22, 2010, 04:07:21 PM
just as the guns to our heads.
I've never had anyone put a gun to my head.

The threat is there, and they also steal bank accounts (and I've seen that.)
I have never had anyone threaten to put a gun to my head.


why don't you pull an ed brown & see what happens?
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: blackie on February 22, 2010, 04:13:38 PM
Then you're not paying attention, or you're stupid.  Judging by this thread, I have my own opinion.
Good argument, Mr. Hyperbole.
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: Cognitive Dissident on February 22, 2010, 04:30:58 PM
Then you're not paying attention, or you're stupid.  Judging by this thread, I have my own opinion.
Good argument, Mr. Hyperbole.

No hyperbole there at all.  Perhaps you think the treasury agents back their threats with harsh language and nerf bats.
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: blackie on February 22, 2010, 04:42:50 PM
No hyperbole there at all.
So you literally have an IRS agent with a gun to your head right now?
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: AL the Inconspicuous on February 22, 2010, 04:59:02 PM
His daughter called him a hero, sorta, but was then forced to retract... (http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/joe-stacks-daughter-samantha-bell-calls-dad-hero/story?id=9903329)
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: Cognitive Dissident on February 22, 2010, 06:46:25 PM
No hyperbole there at all.
So you literally have an IRS agent with a gun to your head right now?

Reading is fundamental.  They routinely DO take your money, DO seize bank accounts and DO put people in cages, and when they come for you, they DO point guns in your face if you choose not to go.

What's more, Mr. Smartass, I have been arrested for protesting my personal property being improperly seized by IRS agents (for taxes someone else "owed.")  I am glad I didn't do something violent about it--though I certainly gave it more than a passing thought.
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: Harry Tuttle on February 22, 2010, 07:21:08 PM
His daughter called him a hero, sorta, but was then forced to retract... (http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/joe-stacks-daughter-samantha-bell-calls-dad-hero/story?id=9903329)

The part I didn't find was whether this Vernon Hunter that died in the attack worked for the IRS.
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: davann on February 22, 2010, 07:34:10 PM
His daughter called him a hero, sorta, but was then forced to retract... (http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/joe-stacks-daughter-samantha-bell-calls-dad-hero/story?id=9903329)

The part I didn't find was whether this Vernon Hunter that died in the attack worked for the IRS.

(Ken) Hunter told "Good Morning America." "My dad Vernon did two tours of duty in Vietnam. My dad's a hero."

Was a vet and a vietnam one at that. They are the worst of all vets with all the fucking whinning and bitching about no one welcoming 'em home. Bunch of pussys, an entire little girl generation.  So weird they sprang from the loins of the greatest generation. Apple really fell far from the tree there. This world is going to be a far better place when all the 'nam vets are dead and we never have to hear them crying ever again.
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: blackie on February 22, 2010, 08:07:44 PM
The part I didn't find was whether this Vernon Hunter that died in the attack worked for the IRS.
I read something that said he worked for the IRS.

http://liveshots.blogs.foxnews.com/2010/02/19/victim-in-austin-plane-crash-identified/?test=latestnews
Quote
(http://liveshots.blogs.foxnews.com/wp-content/mu-plugins/Flutter/thirdparty/phpthumb/phpThumb.php?src=http://liveshots.blogs.foxnews.com/wp-content/mu-plugins/Flutter/files_flutter/1266599044021910_vernonhunter2.JPG&w=259&h=312)

We now know the IRS worker who was killed in the attack on an office building in Austin. He was Vernon Hunter, a 67-year old Revenue Office Manager. He was responsible for collections. Correspondent Kris Gutierrez talked with his wife, Valerie, who also works for the IRS and was in the same building when the attack happened. They have six grown children who live outside of Austin and who are flying in to be with their mother.

Valerie Hunter says before yesterday, she had never heard the name Joseph Stack. He’s the man investigators say set fire to his own home before getting in a plane and flying it into the office building. Witnesses confirm it was a deliberate attack. They say the plane looked like it was “dive-bombing” the building that is next to a busy Austin freeway. Stack left behind a lengthy, obscenity-filled internet post expressing his frustration with the IRS. Within hours of the attack, several Facebook pages were created in support of Stack’s barbaric attack. Looking at the building and the surrounding area, it’s amazing more people were not killed or injured. Another person was also severely hurt in the attack, a worker for the Texas Comptroller’s office.

Stack’s wife has decided not to talk with the media at least for now.
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: hellbilly on February 22, 2010, 08:44:07 PM
Look, its pretty f--kin simple................. I'll explain it as if you are 10 yrs old

The taxpayers in his district pay a shitload of money to the federal govt......... the federal govt decides they want to spend that money....... RP votes against it (lets give it back to the people that paid it)............. the majority votes to pass the spending bill because they are not like RP, his vote lost,  so since it passed anyway, he might as well get some of that money back to the people in his district that paid it in the first place, and that is done through earmarks. Understand?

If you were a tax payer in his district, would you rather the federal govt take your money and spend it on studying the mating habits of earthworms somewhere in California 1000 miles away , or would you rather at least get some of it back to your town where the money came from in the first place? Sure, it would be better if they didnt take it from you at all, but since they do, would you rather just have a congressman that said "nah, let them spend our money somewhere else" ?

So two wrongs make a right?

No, but two Wrights made the airplane

 :lol:
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: The ghost of a ghost of a ghost on February 23, 2010, 03:26:00 AM
Stefan's take:

[youtube=425,350]<object width="853" height="505"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/1SH7jeWpmhI&hl=en_US&fs=1&color1=0x234900&color2=0x4e9e00"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/1SH7jeWpmhI&hl=en_US&fs=1&color1=0x234900&color2=0x4e9e00" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="853" height="505"></embed></object>[/youtube]

Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: AL the Inconspicuous on February 23, 2010, 03:30:51 AM
I like many things Molyneux has to say, but I also find him a little repulsive for some reason.  It's nothing personal, just too touchy-feely and, I don't know... Freudian?  And what's with the vaginal background color?  Bleh!  (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-sick001.gif) (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php)

His videos are great when arguing on socialist forums though, really appeals to their kind.
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: Pilot_MKN on February 23, 2010, 08:07:10 AM
I had to quit listening to his call-in shows. You can only listen to so many whiny 13 year olds wanting to run away from home
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: miamiballoonguy on February 23, 2010, 09:56:47 AM
It's amazing how people have mixed feeling about this.  I'm loving it.

I actually wrote a joke about it that pretty well received in an open mike I did last night.


'Does anyone here know who joe stack is?  He's the guy that burned down his house and suicide bombed the IRS building in Texas?  It was tragic....  Because he only killed one IRS worker.

They took away his money, but left his plane.  Bad move.'
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: Diogenes The Cynic on February 23, 2010, 05:45:57 PM
It's amazing how people have mixed feeling about this.  I'm loving it.

I actually wrote a joke about it that pretty well received in an open mike I did last night.


'Does anyone here know who joe stack is?  He's the guy that burned down his house and suicide bombed the IRS building in Texas?  It was tragic....  Because he only killed one IRS worker.

They took away his money, but left his plane.  Bad move.'

lol
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: Osborne on February 23, 2010, 06:07:53 PM
It's amazing how people have mixed feeling about this.  I'm loving it.

I actually wrote a joke about it that pretty well received in an open mike I did last night.


'Does anyone here know who joe stack is?  He's the guy that burned down his house and suicide bombed the IRS building in Texas?  It was tragic....  Because he only killed one IRS worker.

They took away his money, but left his plane.  Bad move.'

Heheheh. Do you have any recent vids of your work?
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: Bill Brasky on February 23, 2010, 06:13:21 PM
Stefan's take:


Pleh. 





Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: miamiballoonguy on February 23, 2010, 09:27:42 PM
It's amazing how people have mixed feeling about this.  I'm loving it.

I actually wrote a joke about it that pretty well received in an open mike I did last night.


'Does anyone here know who joe stack is?  He's the guy that burned down his house and suicide bombed the IRS building in Texas?  It was tragic....  Because he only killed one IRS worker.

They took away his money, but left his plane.  Bad move.'

Not yet.  Writing Jokes is not the easiest thing in the world.  I did my first open mike in a whiole last night, and all moy new jokes and some rewritten old jokes but 2 went over really well...  Specifically my police brutality jokes.  I'm working on a lot of stuff, particularly about my ethnicity(Puerto Rican) but it's about how I get annoyed about the culture, rather than embracing it.  I hope to be ready for 5 minutes at the improv in the next month or so.  I'll film that and post it.  I've gotta start working on my comedy pages on myspace and facebook soon, too.  I'll post it.

Heheheh. Do you have any recent vids of your work?
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: miamiballoonguy on March 03, 2010, 11:59:09 PM
It's amazing how people have mixed feeling about this.  I'm loving it.

I actually wrote a joke about it that pretty well received in an open mike I did last night.


'Does anyone here know who joe stack is?  He's the guy that burned down his house and suicide bombed the IRS building in Texas?  It was tragic....  Because he only killed one IRS worker.

They took away his money, but left his plane.  Bad move.'

Not yet.  Writing Jokes is not the easiest thing in the world.  I did my first open mike in a whiole last night, and all moy new jokes and some rewritten old jokes but 2 went over really well...  Specifically my police brutality jokes.  I'm working on a lot of stuff, particularly about my ethnicity(Puerto Rican) but it's about how I get annoyed about the culture, rather than embracing it.  I hope to be ready for 5 minutes at the improv in the next month or so.  I'll film that and post it.  I've gotta start working on my comedy pages on myspace and facebook soon, too.  I'll post it.

Heheheh. Do you have any recent vids of your work?

ok, so I did an open mike at a new place tonight and pretty much bombed.  It was a really bad crowd.  you should have seen the stuff that they were laughing at.  ugghh....  I screwed up some jokes, but I've gotta keep trucking on.  I'll post the vid soon.  I'm not sure it's the material, or the crowd.  I guess making fun of the crap known as reggaeton is not funny in a crowd of 20 somethings that actually like the shit.  I;ve definately gotta get out of this town....  Intelligence is at a minimum in Miami.
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: Riddler on March 04, 2010, 08:47:48 AM
chrissakes.
i wish ''stephan'' would fly a fucking plane into a building, if for no other reason than having the name ''stephan''
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: theodorelogan on March 04, 2010, 11:36:50 AM
The idea that someone coerced into handing money over to a violent organization somehow makes him responsible for how that money is spent if f***ing ridiculous blackie.
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: blackie on March 04, 2010, 11:59:12 AM
The idea that someone coerced into handing money over to a violent organization somehow makes him responsible for how that money is spent if f***ing ridiculous blackie.
lol. Denial.
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: Cognitive Dissident on March 04, 2010, 12:32:01 PM
The idea that someone coerced into handing money over to a violent organization somehow makes him responsible for how that money is spent if f***ing ridiculous blackie.
lol. Denial.
lol.  Idiocy.
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: Diogenes The Cynic on March 04, 2010, 01:59:56 PM
I hereby retract my previous position. I had an argument with another guy in my Yeshiva, and he made some pretty darn good counterpoints, and I now don't think that collective punishment is justifiable for collective, bus disparate levels of damage.
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: ForumTroll on March 04, 2010, 05:30:59 PM
The idea that someone coerced into handing money over to a violent organization somehow makes him responsible for how that money is spent if f***ing ridiculous blackie.
lol. Denial.
lol.  Idiocy.

It's all our responsibility to stop the theft. If we don't, then we are held responsible.
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: Rillion on March 04, 2010, 05:46:52 PM
The idea that someone coerced into handing money over to a violent organization somehow makes him responsible for how that money is spent if f***ing ridiculous blackie.
lol. Denial.
lol.  Idiocy.

It's all our responsibility to stop the theft. If we don't, then we are held responsible.

But how do you partition out cumulative responsibility?  And isn't the most effective way to limit taxation....becoming a politician? 
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: davann on March 04, 2010, 05:58:21 PM

It's all our responsibility to stop the theft. If we don't, then we are held responsible.

Claiming every deduction you can to get the bulk back and then commit welfare faud to get the rest. Just be sure not to get greedy, stop cashing the checks once you break even.
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: ForumTroll on March 04, 2010, 06:16:13 PM
The idea that someone coerced into handing money over to a violent organization somehow makes him responsible for how that money is spent if f***ing ridiculous blackie.
lol. Denial.
lol.  Idiocy.

It's all our responsibility to stop the theft. If we don't, then we are held responsible.

But how do you partition out cumulative responsibility?  And isn't the most effective way to limit taxation....becoming a politician? 

That worked for Ron Paul?

Maybe if you refused salary and any expenses you incur to the state?
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: Rillion on March 05, 2010, 02:14:52 PM
But how do you partition out cumulative responsibility?  And isn't the most effective way to limit taxation....becoming a politician? 

That worked for Ron Paul?

Maybe if you refused salary and any expenses you incur to the state?

That would be nice if you're independently wealthy and don't need to earn a salary, but it's not a viable option for most of us. 

We're having elections for both the Texas state house and a city council seat right now, and it's really amusing to see people bicker back and forth on the newspaper's blog about the importance of electing a "true conservative."  A lot of them claim to be Tea Party supporters.   But of course they're all pro-life, anti-drugs, support forcing kids to say the pledge of allegiance in schools, support a federal anti-gay marriage amendment, etc.   It hasn't occurred to any of them that real fiscal conservatism requires social liberalism, because the money to chase down all of those immoral people and lock them up has to come from somewhere.  I would even go so far as to say it's nonsensical to claim to be a fiscal conservative if you're also a social conservative-- you're just shelling out the tax money to put people in prison and otherwise control them rather than give them welfare. 
Title: Re: Nut crashes stolen plane into IRS building in TX
Post by: Harry Tuttle on March 05, 2010, 04:16:52 PM
We're having elections for both the Texas state house and a city council seat right now, and it's really amusing to see people bicker back and forth on the newspaper's blog about the importance of electing a "true conservative."  A lot of them claim to be Tea Party supporters.   But of course they're all pro-life, anti-drugs, support forcing kids to say the pledge of allegiance in schools, support a federal anti-gay marriage amendment, etc.   It hasn't occurred to any of them that real fiscal conservatism requires social liberalism, because the money to chase down all of those immoral people and lock them up has to come from somewhere.  I would even go so far as to say it's nonsensical to claim to be a fiscal conservative if you're also a social conservative-- you're just shelling out the tax money to put people in prison and otherwise control them rather than give them welfare. 

Amen!