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miamiballoonguy

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Re: Need suggestions for my first gun.
« Reply #45 on: December 15, 2008, 02:44:18 PM »

I heard somewhere that owning a gun is like getting tattoos....  you can't have just one.  Maybe It'll happen to me.  Thanks for the info on the cost of the rounds.  That is something that I didn't take into consideration.   That saiga shotgun looked crazy.  I'm not looking into shotguns at the moment.  I'm looking into something that I can conceal (With a Florida CC License) and won't kill my hands and wrists when shot.

By the way, JS, Thanks for all the helpful info.

Hey, you know I love talking about guns. ;-)

And for concealed, go with what you were planning on. A good J frame (Or Taurus/Ruger knockoff even) will do nicely. You can practice with .38 all day and your hands won't hurt, and when you carry, have some .357 mag in there to get the job done. Sore hands for a day or two is more than worth your life, and the .357 is kinda well known for making big holes.

I dunno, I just get paranoid about my hands...  With a hand or wrist injury I'm out of commission and can't do balloons or posibly even use a computer.

anyways, what are your thoughts on single Action vs double action?
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John Shaw

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Re: Need suggestions for my first gun.
« Reply #46 on: December 15, 2008, 02:46:53 PM »

Wait, are you saying you DON'T own an AR-15?

Not a single one. Used to.  Sold it to help pay for my LRB custom M-14. I won, believe me.
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John Shaw

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Re: Need suggestions for my first gun.
« Reply #47 on: December 15, 2008, 02:47:55 PM »

What about an SP-101?

I know, I've become a Ruger fanboy...

Ruger makes great guns. Trigger is heavy, everything else is heavy too, for that matter, but I place them #2 to Smith for revolvers.

Oh, and fuck Colt.
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John Shaw

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Re: Need suggestions for my first gun.
« Reply #48 on: December 15, 2008, 02:54:35 PM »

I dunno, I just get paranoid about my hands...  With a hand or wrist injury I'm out of commission and can't do balloons or possibly even use a computer.

Well, I can understand that. I paint, sculpt and do other fine motor stuff. I also shoot a couple hundred rounds a week. Shooting guns won't wreck your hands up, unless you're firing heavy rounds from a really light gun. (Odds are high you won't be doing this.)

Shooting a .38 out of a J Frame is perfectly comfortable. Less stress than swinging a hammer. Shooting .357 out of a J frame is about the same as swinging a hammer. Frankly, 9mm is snappier than .38 spl. You won't have problems. If you're really worried about it, get one of the larger frames in the same caliber. I have a 686 that is twice as heavy as the model 60, and has half the kick.

anyways, what are your thoughts on single Action vs double action?

You don't want a Single Action Only. Get yourself a DA/SA gun. SAO is for cowboys and shit. You don't want to have to cock that thing each time you want to fire.

Go and try out both the 686 and the 60. There are a ton of other J and L frames, but stainless steel is the way to go with a carry gun. Shoot both .38spl and .357mag out of both. Give the Rugers a try. Set the target at 21 feet or less and see how you like them.

I predict -

A. You will like the 686 more than the 60.
B. You will end up buying something like the 60, because of the size.

Here's a size comparison - Bottom, Model 60 (J frame) Middle, Model 686 (L Frame) Top, Model 460V (X Frame)


« Last Edit: December 15, 2008, 03:03:25 PM by John Shaw »
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miamiballoonguy

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Re: Need suggestions for my first gun.
« Reply #49 on: December 15, 2008, 04:15:37 PM »

I dunno, I just get paranoid about my hands...  With a hand or wrist injury I'm out of commission and can't do balloons or possibly even use a computer.

Well, I can understand that. I paint, sculpt and do other fine motor stuff. I also shoot a couple hundred rounds a week. Shooting guns won't wreck your hands up, unless you're firing heavy rounds from a really light gun. (Odds are high you won't be doing this.)

Shooting a .38 out of a J Frame is perfectly comfortable. Less stress than swinging a hammer. Shooting .357 out of a J frame is about the same as swinging a hammer. Frankly, 9mm is snappier than .38 spl. You won't have problems. If you're really worried about it, get one of the larger frames in the same caliber. I have a 686 that is twice as heavy as the model 60, and has half the kick.

anyways, what are your thoughts on single Action vs double action?

You don't want a Single Action Only. Get yourself a DA/SA gun. SAO is for cowboys and shit. You don't want to have to cock that thing each time you want to fire.

Go and try out both the 686 and the 60. There are a ton of other J and L frames, but stainless steel is the way to go with a carry gun. Shoot both .38spl and .357mag out of both. Give the Rugers a try. Set the target at 21 feet or less and see how you like them.

I predict -

A. You will like the 686 more than the 60.
B. You will end up buying something like the 60, because of the size.

Here's a size comparison - Bottom, Model 60 (J frame) Middle, Model 686 (L Frame) Top, Model 460V (X Frame)




Dude, how many guns do you own?  LOL  my brother walked in and saw me reading your post...  He's taking me to the gun range in Hialeah on monday to go and start shooting guns.  I'll play around a few revolvers.  That 686 looks about right.  If they have one there, that's the first one I'll try.
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John Shaw

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Re: Need suggestions for my first gun.
« Reply #50 on: December 15, 2008, 04:37:57 PM »

Dude, how many guns do you own? 

More than 30. Less than 200.  :P

LOL  my brother walked in and saw me reading your post...  He's taking me to the gun range in Hialeah on monday to go and start shooting guns.  I'll play around a few revolvers.  That 686 looks about right.  If they have one there, that's the first one I'll try.

It's a great gun. Mine was made in 1982 or so and you can't tell it wasn't made yesterday, apart from the lack of a lock. Have fun and enjoy your practice run!
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miamiballoonguy

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Re: Need suggestions for my first gun.
« Reply #51 on: December 15, 2008, 05:02:42 PM »

Dude, how many guns do you own?

More than 30. Less than 200.  :P

LOL  my brother walked in and saw me reading your post...  He's taking me to the gun range in Hialeah on monday to go and start shooting guns.  I'll play around a few revolvers.  That 686 looks about right.  If they have one there, that's the first one I'll try.

It's a great gun. Mine was made in 1982 or so and you can't tell it wasn't made yesterday, apart from the lack of a lock. Have fun and enjoy your practice run!

I can't wait...  Here is the link to the place where we are going to go if you want to check ut the place.   http://www.floridagun.com/
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Re: Need suggestions for my first gun.
« Reply #52 on: December 15, 2008, 05:07:12 PM »

I can't wait...  Here is the link to the place where we are going to go if you want to check ut the place.   http://www.floridagun.com/

I think I know the owner. He goes by Gatorfarmer over at the S&W forum.
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miamiballoonguy

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Re: Need suggestions for my first gun.
« Reply #53 on: December 15, 2008, 05:47:20 PM »

I can't wait...  Here is the link to the place where we are going to go if you want to check ut the place.   http://www.floridagun.com/

I think I know the owner. He goes by Gatorfarmer over at the S&W forum.

It's a small world after all.
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Dave in NY___evening

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Re: Need suggestions for my first gun.
« Reply #54 on: December 15, 2008, 06:32:53 PM »

I've heard some bull pup conversions can make for a stiff trigger pull.

Make that "All" conversions. They suck. But the weight of a larger gun helps ameliorate the heavy pull's effect on accuracy.

I wouldn't completely rule out 5.56, the stories of the rounds lack of stopping power come from the full jacket ammo (puts a hole straight through ya), soft point wounds are nasty.

It's a cop round. I don't shoot 5.56/.223 for the same reason I don't shoot .40 S&W. Deliberately underpowered for weak, uninterested cop types who are afraid of a large bang or a sore hand. There are positive arguments for those rounds, namely weight, of course. I try not to be a snob about ammo or brands or anything like that, but I have certain criteria... Defense rounds for pistols start at .38 caliber, and rifles start at 30. I'm a big heavy ammo promoter.

I also pretty much hate the AR. The entire design of the platform stinks of bureaucracy and it's history of success versus failure reflects that. Out of the many guns I own, I went ahead and got a Mini-14 rather than an AR for a .223.

Hell if you want stopping power get a marlin 30 30 lever action.

Well, again, .308 makes a 30-30 round look like a paper puncher. Having said that, the 30-30 is better than the .223 by far, so I'll grant you that.
The full metal jacket 5.56 and 7.62 as far as I understand were designed to "wound a 160lb man" to accomplish "taking three men out of the fight, one wounded with two to carry him off the field". If you wish to splatter your target, hit em with a shotgun slug or rifle used for hunting deer. The ar15 is part available as well as having a abundant supply of cheap large capacity mags. Its simple, accurate and with m4 feed ramps very reliable. The ammo is cheap and the platform is optics friendly. I completely agree the m16 family is political but so is the reason to own one.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2008, 06:47:03 PM by Dave in NY___evening »
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John Shaw

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Re: Need suggestions for my first gun.
« Reply #55 on: December 15, 2008, 07:09:02 PM »

The full metal jacket 5.56 and 7.62 as far as I understand were designed to "wound a 160lb man" to accomplish "taking three men out of the fight, one wounded with two to carry him off the field". If you wish to splatter your target, hit em with a shotgun slug or rifle used for hunting deer. The ar15 is part available as well as having a abundant supply of cheap large capacity mags. Its simple, accurate and with m4 feed ramps very reliable. The ammo is cheap and the platform is optics friendly. I completely agree the m16 family is political but so is the reason to own one.

5.56, yes. 7.62x39, no.

And I'm talking about 7.62x51, not 39. That is the NATO designation for the .308 Winchester, with slightly more brass and a tiny bit less power. It is not made for wounding. It is made for placing a 30 caliber, 200 grain round through a cinderblock wall and then a person at 300 yards.

And the AR platform breaks. I don't use guns that break easily.
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miamiballoonguy

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Re: Need suggestions for my first gun.
« Reply #56 on: December 15, 2008, 07:22:22 PM »

I've heard some bull pup conversions can make for a stiff trigger pull.

Make that "All" conversions. They suck. But the weight of a larger gun helps ameliorate the heavy pull's effect on accuracy.

I wouldn't completely rule out 5.56, the stories of the rounds lack of stopping power come from the full jacket ammo (puts a hole straight through ya), soft point wounds are nasty.

It's a cop round. I don't shoot 5.56/.223 for the same reason I don't shoot .40 S&W. Deliberately underpowered for weak, uninterested cop types who are afraid of a large bang or a sore hand. There are positive arguments for those rounds, namely weight, of course. I try not to be a snob about ammo or brands or anything like that, but I have certain criteria... Defense rounds for pistols start at .38 caliber, and rifles start at 30. I'm a big heavy ammo promoter.

I also pretty much hate the AR. The entire design of the platform stinks of bureaucracy and it's history of success versus failure reflects that. Out of the many guns I own, I went ahead and got a Mini-14 rather than an AR for a .223.

Hell if you want stopping power get a marlin 30 30 lever action.

Well, again, .308 makes a 30-30 round look like a paper puncher. Having said that, the 30-30 is better than the .223 by far, so I'll grant you that.
The full metal jacket 5.56 and 7.62 as far as I understand were designed to "wound a 160lb man" to accomplish "taking three men out of the fight, one wounded with two to carry him off the field". If you wish to splatter your target, hit em with a shotgun slug or rifle used for hunting deer. The ar15 is part available as well as having a abundant supply of cheap large capacity mags. Its simple, accurate and with m4 feed ramps very reliable. The ammo is cheap and the platform is optics friendly. I completely agree the m16 family is political but so is the reason to own one.

is it legal to own an m16?
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Ecolitan

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Re: Need suggestions for my first gun.
« Reply #57 on: December 15, 2008, 07:27:18 PM »

Yes, there's a big annual fee though.  You don't want one anyway.  There are better options if you're gonna put up the dough for a full-auto.
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John Shaw

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Re: Need suggestions for my first gun.
« Reply #58 on: December 15, 2008, 10:47:17 PM »

Yes, there's a big annual fee though. 

And the gun is close to five grand.

You don't want one anyway.

Indeed.

There are better options if you're gonna put up the dough for a full-auto.

Indeed 2.0
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sinceredagreat

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Re: Need suggestions for my first gun.
« Reply #59 on: December 16, 2008, 03:13:58 AM »

The full metal jacket 5.56 and 7.62 as far as I understand were designed to "wound a 160lb man" to accomplish "taking three men out of the fight, one wounded with two to carry him off the field". If you wish to splatter your target, hit em with a shotgun slug or rifle used for hunting deer. The ar15 is part available as well as having a abundant supply of cheap large capacity mags. Its simple, accurate and with m4 feed ramps very reliable. The ammo is cheap and the platform is optics friendly. I completely agree the m16 family is political but so is the reason to own one.

5.56, yes. 7.62x39, no.

And I'm talking about 7.62x51, not 39. That is the NATO designation for the .308 Winchester, with slightly more brass and a tiny bit less power. It is not made for wounding. It is made for placing a 30 caliber, 200 grain round through a cinderblock wall and then a person at 300 yards.

And the AR platform breaks. I don't use guns that break easily.

Most NATO rounds that are used in assault rifles are made to wound, because of all that political Geneva crap. Take it from me, someone who has used the 5.56 round extensively against actual people, there is only a few places I am for, and its not center mass.
if it was a static target (standing still and shooting at me) I would aim for the legs. Period, If you are laying on your back, you can't hit me. Moving targets, I aim for the heart or about the waist area, because I had my windage settings changed so that my post was down a couple more rotations than needed so that hopefully I shot their dick off. A bullet even grazing your nuts is gonna take you out the fight, period.

.308's are hunting rifles, aren't they? What always killed me is that we can't use the .50 cal machine gun to shoot people. That's always been a sore spot with me. To me, if you are in combat, I feel a round the size of your hand should definitely do the trick.

But seriously, I think the next platform of weapons should either involve 7.62 or the same round they use for Barrett sniper rifles(.50 cal). Yeah, they are inaccurate from the short barrel of an assault rifle, but most fights aren't at the distances they train you for in urban environments. I swear to God, most of my training was oriented for jungles and shit, and I joined in 2003, after the invasion, so it should have been clear that we are going to be fighting in urban environments, PLUS our military is supposed ot used for defense, and I am pretty sure most of our population density is in urban environments.

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