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John Shaw

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Re: Need suggestions for my first gun.
« Reply #30 on: December 15, 2008, 09:53:50 AM »

The Ps-90 is more for shit's and giggles. 

Which is totally cool. They're not bad guns, they just use expensive ammo that may or may not stick around. The gun culture is pretty conservative when it comes to new stuff, and slow moving when it comes to technology. (And for good reason! Testing self defense rounds should be rare!) a good nine out of ten new ammo types die off, and they're almost glacier like in the speed of adoption, with few exceptions. That means expensive because of low demand.

For instance - The .454 Casull was designed in 1959 as a high powered hunting round to replace/enhance the venerable .45 Colt (Long) It is considered a fairly popular hunting round. The adoption rate is maybe ten percent of the .45 Colt, 49 years later, and has already been surpassed by the round that replaces/enhances it. (The .460 magnum) A gun that shoots .460 mag will also shoot .454 Casull and .45 Colt. The .460 mag and .45 Colt are both cheaper than the .454 Casull, (Around the same price for both, 25-28 bucks for 20 rounds, compared to around 35 bucks for 20 rounds of Casull.) even though the .460 mag uses more brass, powder, copper, and lead than the Casull. Supply and demand, etc. But then think of this - You can buy a 500 round box of .22lr, which uses three to four times the brass, lead, powder and so on, for thirteen bucks. Again, demand creates supply.

Expensive ammo = less practice, for most people. Less practice = less mastery.

The revolver is for self defense.  For some reason, Revolvers seem a bit more safe for the user.  

Well... Yes and no. Revolvers have NO safety mechanism whatsoever. Just a trigger that's harder to pull and less likely to snag and discharge. They're easier to use and maintain, and are a hell of a lot less likely to have mechanical failures of any kind. I like revolvers, so I'm a little biased, but most gun people will agree with me on these points. Revolver hate is mostly directed at the less concealable shape and lower ammo count. Shape doesn't bother me, because a properly carried gun isn't noticeable anyway, especially a J frame, and ammo count, well... If you need more than five rounds to deal with your problem, you either need to practice more or run like hell, because you're fighting off more than two people or you can't aim.

But what the hell do I know?  That's why I started this thread..

Don't bag on yourself, you gotta start somewhere.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2008, 09:56:49 AM by John Shaw »
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Dave in NY___evening

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Re: Need suggestions for my first gun.
« Reply #31 on: December 15, 2008, 10:31:04 AM »

Buy a rifle with a 5.56 or a 7.62 unless you have one already. Uncommon round=your rifle is a $2,000 club. I recommend an Olympic Arms ar15 carbine.

He wants a revolver to start with, though.
I cannot comment on a handgun, I live in NY. I just think the p90 is not a good idea.

Ps 90's are cool..  It's something that I would want to save up for...  I'm a big stargate fan, and it's one of the main guns used by most of the military.  As a matter of fact, if anyone here is into sci fi and guns, it's the show to watch.  I was watching an episode on my appletv and I got to see one of those automatic shotguns in use...  And some of the bad guys have these fully automatic pistols that look cool... 
If cool is the deciding factor buy an airsoft, if you want a primary weapon get a practical round!!! If you want a cool looking gun that's a bull-pup like the p90 with a practical round buy a fn2000. The fn2000 uses 5.56 ammo with a standard ar15 mag.



Although I feel a primary rifle needs to be part available. You can buy a ak variant for $500 or a ar15 for $650 and use the $1,000 use saved for optics and bullets (bullets may become hard to get!!!)

As far as Stargate I must say "Daniel son you watch too much TV"

« Last Edit: December 15, 2008, 10:46:27 AM by Dave in NY___evening »
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John Shaw

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Re: Need suggestions for my first gun.
« Reply #32 on: December 15, 2008, 10:43:12 AM »

If you're gonna get a bullpup, get one that shoots a real round. :-P

http://www.kel-tec-cnc.com/rfb.htm

http://www.shortrifles.com/
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Dave in NY___evening

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Re: Need suggestions for my first gun.
« Reply #33 on: December 15, 2008, 10:57:58 AM »

I've heard some bull pup conversions can make for a stiff trigger pull. I wouldn't completely rule out 5.56, the stories of the rounds lack of stopping power come from the full jacket ammo (puts a hole straight through ya), soft point wounds are nasty. Hell if you want stopping power get a marlin 30 30 lever action.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2008, 10:59:53 AM by Dave in NY___evening »
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John Shaw

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Re: Need suggestions for my first gun.
« Reply #34 on: December 15, 2008, 11:16:23 AM »

I've heard some bull pup conversions can make for a stiff trigger pull.

Make that "All" conversions. They suck. But the weight of a larger gun helps ameliorate the heavy pull's effect on accuracy.

I wouldn't completely rule out 5.56, the stories of the rounds lack of stopping power come from the full jacket ammo (puts a hole straight through ya), soft point wounds are nasty.

It's a cop round. I don't shoot 5.56/.223 for the same reason I don't shoot .40 S&W. Deliberately underpowered for weak, uninterested cop types who are afraid of a large bang or a sore hand. There are positive arguments for those rounds, namely weight, of course. I try not to be a snob about ammo or brands or anything like that, but I have certain criteria... Defense rounds for pistols start at .38 caliber, and rifles start at 30. I'm a big heavy ammo promoter.

I also pretty much hate the AR. The entire design of the platform stinks of bureaucracy and it's history of success versus failure reflects that. Out of the many guns I own, I went ahead and got a Mini-14 rather than an AR for a .223.

Hell if you want stopping power get a marlin 30 30 lever action.

Well, again, .308 makes a 30-30 round look like a paper puncher. Having said that, the 30-30 is better than the .223 by far, so I'll grant you that.
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Re: Need suggestions for my first gun.
« Reply #35 on: December 15, 2008, 11:40:27 AM »

Buy a rifle with a 5.56 or a 7.62 unless you have one already. Uncommon round=your rifle is a $2,000 club. I recommend an Olympic Arms ar15 carbine.

He wants a revolver to start with, though.
I cannot comment on a handgun, I live in NY. I just think the p90 is not a good idea.

Ps 90's are cool..  It's something that I would want to save up for...  I'm a big stargate fan, and it's one of the main guns used by most of the military.  As a matter of fact, if anyone here is into sci fi and guns, it's the show to watch.  I was watching an episode on my appletv and I got to see one of those automatic shotguns in use...  And some of the bad guys have these fully automatic pistols that look cool... 
If cool is the deciding factor buy an airsoft, if you want a primary weapon get a practical round!!! If you want a cool looking gun that's a bull-pup like the p90 with a practical round buy a fn2000. The fn2000 uses 5.56 ammo with a standard ar15 mag.



Although I feel a primary rifle needs to be part available. You can buy a ak variant for $500 or a ar15 for $650 and use the $1,000 use saved for optics and bullets (bullets may become hard to get!!!)

As far as Stargate I must say "Daniel son you watch too much TV"



I'll just keep it simple...  A revolver and a PS-90.  This one pictured looks to much like a normal machine gun, whereas the p-s90 is somewhere in between a machine gun and a pistol if My research is correct.  Since I have no desire to kill bambi, bugs bunny, and daffy duck in the wild, It's a bit more than what I'm looking for.  I just need something to keep the riffraf from coming after me, and a cool looking gun.... 

Oh, and I do watch too much TV on DVD.  TV shows on DVD are like Crack.... No Commercials and all episodes right then and there...  If you rip em to your itunes library and watch them on your tv, you will not leave your chair for hours on end unless you've got to go to the bathroom.  I've got most of my dvd library saved on 3 terrabyte hard drives, and it is beautiful.   
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Re: Need suggestions for my first gun.
« Reply #36 on: December 15, 2008, 11:51:36 AM »

The Ps-90 is more for shit's and giggles. 

Which is totally cool. They're not bad guns, they just use expensive ammo that may or may not stick around. The gun culture is pretty conservative when it comes to new stuff, and slow moving when it comes to technology. (And for good reason! Testing self defense rounds should be rare!) a good nine out of ten new ammo types die off, and they're almost glacier like in the speed of adoption, with few exceptions. That means expensive because of low demand.

For instance - The .454 Casull was designed in 1959 as a high powered hunting round to replace/enhance the venerable .45 Colt (Long) It is considered a fairly popular hunting round. The adoption rate is maybe ten percent of the .45 Colt, 49 years later, and has already been surpassed by the round that replaces/enhances it. (The .460 magnum) A gun that shoots .460 mag will also shoot .454 Casull and .45 Colt. The .460 mag and .45 Colt are both cheaper than the .454 Casull, (Around the same price for both, 25-28 bucks for 20 rounds, compared to around 35 bucks for 20 rounds of Casull.) even though the .460 mag uses more brass, powder, copper, and lead than the Casull. Supply and demand, etc. But then think of this - You can buy a 500 round box of .22lr, which uses three to four times the brass, lead, powder and so on, for thirteen bucks. Again, demand creates supply.

Expensive ammo = less practice, for most people. Less practice = less mastery.

The revolver is for self defense.  For some reason, Revolvers seem a bit more safe for the user. 

Well... Yes and no. Revolvers have NO safety mechanism whatsoever. Just a trigger that's harder to pull and less likely to snag and discharge. They're easier to use and maintain, and are a hell of a lot less likely to have mechanical failures of any kind. I like revolvers, so I'm a little biased, but most gun people will agree with me on these points. Revolver hate is mostly directed at the less concealable shape and lower ammo count. Shape doesn't bother me, because a properly carried gun isn't noticeable anyway, especially a J frame, and ammo count, well... If you need more than five rounds to deal with your problem, you either need to practice more or run like hell, because you're fighting off more than two people or you can't aim.

Well, From my research, I have seen a few revolvers that mentioned something about having some sort of safety mechanisms, but I will take your word on it.  Also, with the exception of the safety mechanism, the easier to maintain, fewer mechanical failures, and the fact that you can tell if there is a round in the chamber a lot easier are some of my reasons for going this way.  I agree that if 5 or 6 bullets don't do the trick, then it's time to get the hell out of there.

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Re: Need suggestions for my first gun.
« Reply #37 on: December 15, 2008, 11:58:24 AM »

If you own a house, go ahead and get the rifle for defense.

Condos, apartments, children, and short distances between houses (Say, less than 40 feet) would cause me to urge you to think about a shotgun instead. If you don't have any of those issues, get what you like and can afford to shoot fairly regularly. Shooting isn't like riding a bike though, you HAVE to practice to remain up to par, and if the price is too high to shoot a hundred rounds a month you're gonna be bummed.

With 5.7x28, even in bulk, you're paying forty cents a shot. Ten rounds - four bucks. That's twenty bucks to shoot one magazine. You can do that in less than a minute, shooting slowly. Less than ten seconds if you're screwing around. Just remember that.

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/links/link.jsp?id=0050618216486a&type=product&cm_mmc=CRR-_-RLP-_-216486-_-productname_link&cmCat=CRR&cmCat=netcon&cm_ven=netcon&cm_cat=Google&cm_pla=5.7x28&cm_ite=netcon&rid=0180101070502

Saiga makes some bad assed shotguns that are based on the AK frame and use high cap magazines. They are probably the coolest, most reliable semiauto shotguns around.

http://www.saiga-12.com/

I mean, it's an AK that shoots shotgun shells!

« Last Edit: December 15, 2008, 12:02:44 PM by John Shaw »
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John Shaw

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Re: Need suggestions for my first gun.
« Reply #38 on: December 15, 2008, 12:01:59 PM »

Well, From my research, I have seen a few revolvers that mentioned something about having some sort of safety mechanisms, but I will take your word on it.  Also, with the exception of the safety mechanism, the easier to maintain, fewer mechanical failures, and the fact that you can tell if there is a round in the chamber a lot easier are some of my reasons for going this way.  I agree that if 5 or 6 bullets don't do the trick, then it's time to get the hell out of there.

S&W revolvers have locks on them. Locks that require a key. You aren't gonna be carrying a locked gun and a key, I can assure you.



You can also have a custom safety added to a Smith, Ruger, or Taurus. For a couple hundred bones.

My recommendation: Just be safe with your gun, and you'll be fine.
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Re: Need suggestions for my first gun.
« Reply #39 on: December 15, 2008, 12:06:25 PM »

Also, there's nothing wrong with getting a gun just because it's cool. Get what you like, man. I have a thing for the aesthetics of revolvers. I therefore have a bunch. I think that the revolver is one of the coolest things mankind has ever invented, and that they're just plain beautiful.



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Re: Need suggestions for my first gun.
« Reply #40 on: December 15, 2008, 12:18:55 PM »

If you own a house, go ahead and get the rifle for defense.

Condos, apartments, children, and short distances between houses (Say, less than 40 feet) would cause me to urge you to think about a shotgun instead. If you don't have any of those issues, get what you like and can afford to shoot fairly regularly. Shooting isn't like riding a bike though, you HAVE to practice to remain up to par, and if the price is too high to shoot a hundred rounds a month you're gonna be bummed.

With 5.7x28, even in bulk, you're paying forty cents a shot. Ten rounds - four bucks. That's twenty bucks to shoot one magazine. You can do that in less than a minute, shooting slowly. Less than ten seconds if you're screwing around. Just remember that.

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/links/link.jsp?id=0050618216486a&type=product&cm_mmc=CRR-_-RLP-_-216486-_-productname_link&cmCat=CRR&cmCat=netcon&cm_ven=netcon&cm_cat=Google&cm_pla=5.7x28&cm_ite=netcon&rid=0180101070502

Saiga makes some bad assed shotguns that are based on the AK frame and use high cap magazines. They are probably the coolest, most reliable semiauto shotguns around.

http://www.saiga-12.com/

I mean, it's an AK that shoots shotgun shells!



I heard somewhere that owning a gun is like getting tattoos....  you can't have just one.  Maybe It'll happen to me.  Thanks for the info on the cost of the rounds.  That is something that I didn't take into consideration.   That saiga shotgun looked crazy.  I'm not looking into shotguns at the moment.  I'm looking into something that I can conceal (With a Florida CC License) and won't kill my hands and wrists when shot.

By the way, JS, Thanks for all the helpful info.
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John Shaw

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Re: Need suggestions for my first gun.
« Reply #41 on: December 15, 2008, 12:22:18 PM »

I heard somewhere that owning a gun is like getting tattoos....  you can't have just one.  Maybe It'll happen to me.  Thanks for the info on the cost of the rounds.  That is something that I didn't take into consideration.   That saiga shotgun looked crazy.  I'm not looking into shotguns at the moment.  I'm looking into something that I can conceal (With a Florida CC License) and won't kill my hands and wrists when shot.

By the way, JS, Thanks for all the helpful info.

Hey, you know I love talking about guns. ;-)

And for concealed, go with what you were planning on. A good J frame (Or Taurus/Ruger knockoff even) will do nicely. You can practice with .38 all day and your hands won't hurt, and when you carry, have some .357 mag in there to get the job done. Sore hands for a day or two is more than worth your life, and the .357 is kinda well known for making big holes.
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Re: Need suggestions for my first gun.
« Reply #42 on: December 15, 2008, 02:08:29 PM »

Out of the many guns I own, I went ahead and got a Mini-14 rather than an AR for a .223.



Wait, are you saying you DON'T own an AR-15?
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Re: Need suggestions for my first gun.
« Reply #43 on: December 15, 2008, 02:12:19 PM »

I heard somewhere that owning a gun is like getting tattoos....  you can't have just one.  Maybe It'll happen to me.  Thanks for the info on the cost of the rounds.  That is something that I didn't take into consideration.   That saiga shotgun looked crazy.  I'm not looking into shotguns at the moment.  I'm looking into something that I can conceal (With a Florida CC License) and won't kill my hands and wrists when shot.

By the way, JS, Thanks for all the helpful info.

Hey, you know I love talking about guns. ;-)

And for concealed, go with what you were planning on. A good J frame (Or Taurus/Ruger knockoff even) will do nicely. You can practice with .38 all day and your hands won't hurt, and when you carry, have some .357 mag in there to get the job done. Sore hands for a day or two is more than worth your life, and the .357 is kinda well known for making big holes.
What about an SP-101?



I know, I've become a Ruger fanboy...
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Re: Need suggestions for my first gun.
« Reply #44 on: December 15, 2008, 02:33:47 PM »

I heard somewhere that owning a gun is like getting tattoos....  you can't have just one.  Maybe It'll happen to me.  Thanks for the info on the cost of the rounds.  That is something that I didn't take into consideration.   That saiga shotgun looked crazy.  I'm not looking into shotguns at the moment.  I'm looking into something that I can conceal (With a Florida CC License) and won't kill my hands and wrists when shot.

By the way, JS, Thanks for all the helpful info.

Hey, you know I love talking about guns. ;-)

And for concealed, go with what you were planning on. A good J frame (Or Taurus/Ruger knockoff even) will do nicely. You can practice with .38 all day and your hands won't hurt, and when you carry, have some .357 mag in there to get the job done. Sore hands for a day or two is more than worth your life, and the .357 is kinda well known for making big holes.
What about an SP-101?



I know, I've become a Ruger fanboy...

Well, once I can make it to the gun shops and range to start checking them out, but I'm proably leaning s&w just because they have that classic look to them...  But I'm sure that I will get a better idea when I get to the gun shops and ranges...  I still need to do a little more research ust so that I can understand the lingo so to speak.
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