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Author Topic: My son didnt say the Pledge of Allegiance at school  (Read 6553 times)

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the hermit

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My son didnt say the Pledge of Allegiance at school
« on: November 13, 2010, 12:19:25 PM »

he is 14 and he told me the other day that he got in trouble for not saying the pledge....he understands that something is not right about it and of course i have been teaching him about liberty and freedom and of course the state but he really couldn't remember what to tell the teachers when they asked him why and if it was some sort of religious reason.....so he just told them that it was his choice and that he loved america but he just feel right about saying the pledge..and that they shouldn't make a big deal about it but they did....any suggestions on what i need to tell him to tell the teachers next time?  something sorta simple that he can remember because he is the only one in school that is actually standing up for his personal beliefs.  i'm very proud of him but i dont want this to cause him to be an outcast at school.....he is very well liked at school and everyone really looks up to him but when the teachers cant understand why he wouldn't pledge they can come against him....anything that i can tell him?  or something that i can point him to that he can read and understand why some people dont say the pledge...and something he can tell these teachers without being mean or a smartass...something kinda lite and to the point without getting him further in trouble..thanks guys
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alaric89

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Re: My son didnt say the Pledge of Allegiance at school
« Reply #1 on: November 13, 2010, 03:40:16 PM »

I think you should be proud of your kid as well. I would be supportive and truthful. It will work out. People admire people who do what they believe is right but kids are quicker to admit it.
My daughter caught some hell for refusing to say some religious vows she didn't believe in when she was 15. After some initial ostracism, her friends respected her more than before. *
None of the adults involved in the indoctrination wanted to deal with me, I don't have any thoughts on what to say to them.

* I live in Norway. The vows she refused to say are done by most Norwegian teenagers in a ceremony called "Conformation".

Ecolitan

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Re: My son didnt say the Pledge of Allegiance at school
« Reply #2 on: November 13, 2010, 05:43:15 PM »

that forcing someone to pledge allegiance to something is contradictory to the liberty...for all part of the pledge.  The moment you force someone to say it you contradict the whole thing.  Tell me teach, you pledged for liberty and justice for all just moments ago and now you want to coerce me into doing something I don't want to do.  You sir are a liar.  Maybe YOU shouldn't say the pledge.  You'd still be an evil nazi but at least you'd be a more honest one.

Also, why would you pledge allegiance to a flag?  The flag is going to give you instructions to follow?  Yes sir flag sir, right away.  That's completely ridiculous.  What a silly thing to pledge every morning.

And...  It's Nazi propaganda made by a national socialist who sold flags for a living.  That's a good enough reason to want nothing to do with it.
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Riddler

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Re: My son didnt say the Pledge of Allegiance at school
« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2010, 06:10:28 PM »

your kid's fucked.
have him tell them he's a jehovah.
your only way out
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Ecolitan

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Re: My son didnt say the Pledge of Allegiance at school
« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2010, 06:17:58 PM »

Yes, raise someone to lie as means of getting what he wants.  That will surely make a well-adjusted and happy person out of him.

Or, you could raise someone with the balls to stand up for what he thinks is right and therefore never feels the overwhelming sense of unworthiness that leads him to use phrases like "namby-pamby fag".

Dragline is partially correct.  "Because I don't want to and should be free to go through life without the government forcing me to promise things I don't want to promise" might get him lots of detention and/or suspension but in the end they will know they did those things to this kid because he refused to say words he didn't want to say and how can they possibly feel good about that?  You want to show the violence inherent in the system you have to be prepared to take a little violence.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2010, 06:20:37 PM by Ecolitan »
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Riddler

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Re: My son didnt say the Pledge of Allegiance at school
« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2010, 06:49:21 PM »

don't be such a patronizing cunt.
my way is easier.
or....your way...
where the kid is ostracized his whole school-assed life,
then, one day, walks into high school w/ a duffle-bag full of semi-auto weaponry & columbines the place

but....at least he ''stood his ground'', right?

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mrapplecastle

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Re: My son didnt say the Pledge of Allegiance at school
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2010, 07:11:36 PM »



* I live in Norway.
I heard they like to burn churches in norway.
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Ecolitan

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Re: My son didnt say the Pledge of Allegiance at school
« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2010, 07:32:06 PM »

don't be such a patronizing cunt.
my way is easier.
or....your way...
where the kid is ostracized his whole school-assed life,
then, one day, walks into high school w/ a duffle-bag full of semi-auto weaponry & columbines the place

but....at least he ''stood his ground'', right?



I only don't hate myself when I stand my ground.  I kick myself for years when I bow to them.  Also, people who explain why it's ok to lie can't be trusted.
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Rillion

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Re: My son didnt say the Pledge of Allegiance at school
« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2010, 08:59:11 PM »

anything that i can tell him?  or something that i can point him to that he can read and understand why some people dont say the pledge...and something he can tell these teachers without being mean or a smartass...something kinda lite and to the point without getting him further in trouble..thanks guys

Go here.  Read it, print it out, and explain it to your son if he doesn't understand it.  If he wants a clear reason besides the fact that being made to recite the pledge is illegal and "I don't want to" is good enough, point to this section specifically:

Quote
To believe that patriotism will not flourish if patriotic ceremonies are voluntary and spontaneous instead of a compulsory routine is to make an unflattering estimate of the appeal of our institutions to free minds. We can have intellectual individualism and the rich cultural diversities that we owe to exceptional minds only at the price of occasional eccentricity and abnormal attitudes. When they are so harmless to others or to the State as those we deal with here, the price is not too great. But freedom to differ is not limited to things that do not matter much. That would be a mere shadow of freedom. The test of its substance is the right to differ as to things that touch the heart of the existing order. If there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation, it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion, or other matters of opinion or force citizens to confess by word or act their faith therein. If there are any circumstances which permit an exception, they do not now occur to us.

Have him take the print-out to school and explain to his teachers that it has been deemed unconstitutional by the Supreme Court for teachers to force students to say the pledge since 1943, and they should be ashamed of themselves for not knowing that.  

If that doesn't work, present the same information to the teacher's superiors.  Tell them that if they don't abide by something so thoroughly and comprehensively decided you will sic the ACLU on their asses.  If that doesn't persuade them, then do precisely that.  You can find your local affiliate here.  
« Last Edit: November 13, 2010, 09:05:08 PM by Rillion »
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The Muslim Agorist

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Re: My son didnt say the Pledge of Allegiance at school
« Reply #9 on: November 14, 2010, 12:36:12 PM »

Buy that kid a Sundae.

I think "It's my choice" is about the best answer there is. Everything else is just packaging. But some history never hurts

The pledge of allegiance and the religion of the State

You could try: the Supreme Court ruled in West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette that we have the right to opt out of the pledge because "compulsory unification of opinion" violated the First Amendment.
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Ecolitan

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Re: My son didnt say the Pledge of Allegiance at school
« Reply #10 on: November 14, 2010, 12:40:43 PM »

Buy that kid a Sundae.

I think "It's my choice" is about the best answer there is. Everything else is just packaging. But some history never hurts

 

This:  In this case the law is useful for getting what you want but I always shy away from using it as an argument because what some people wrote down on a piece of paper is a stupid reason to be allowed to be free.  If he thinks he should be allowed to be free because the supreme court said so then he should use that.  If he has different reasons he should use those... THEN use the supreme court case when the ACLU gets involved and he gets to call his teacher a freedom hating criminal in open court, where the law belongs.
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alaric89

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Re: My son didnt say the Pledge of Allegiance at school
« Reply #11 on: November 14, 2010, 02:37:45 PM »



* I live in Norway.
I heard they like to burn churches in norway.

Isolated incidents done by a few Black Metal Satanist in the mid 90s. The vandalised gravestones as well.
People generally are Lutherens here. Some churches are 100's of years old so even atheist appreciate the historic value of the church buildings.

the hermit

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Re: My son didnt say the Pledge of Allegiance at school
« Reply #12 on: November 14, 2010, 11:51:13 PM »

here is the letter i gave him to give to the teacher in case they pull him out of class again and send him to the office like they did the other day....because the principal told him either to get a note from parents or to stand up and say it....he said the principal was upset and was asking him why and did he not love his country and just couldn't understand why he decided not to say it...so the last few days my son has just been standing up and acting like he's saying it...said when the teacher would look at him he would just move his mouth hahaha  a few months back i did explain to my son who wrote the pledge and that you dont have to say it to love your country and he understands that washington is corrupt and understands a lot more than the average kid about politics and probably knows more than those teachers at his school.....he's been listening to freetalk live podcast with me for the last 3 years ;)....and back in 2008 his whole school had a little voting thing with all the kids and he was the only one that voted for ron paul :)  of course he had to write it in because ron was not on the list.....he's a very smart young man and im proud of him....
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i give permission for my son to say or not say the pledge of allegience. i feel that it is his personal choice and his freedom to choose is what makes this country so special. he loves his country and understands that it is freedom of choice that he is exercising. saying the pledge of allegiance should never be forced on anyone seeing how that would go against everything this country stands for. thank you very much.
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so i told him if they have anything to say to him again to give them this. hopefully this will keep them quite for a while....anyway thanks for the responses...just burns me up how crazy things are sometimes..
« Last Edit: November 14, 2010, 11:58:54 PM by the hermit »
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davann

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Re: My son didnt say the Pledge of Allegiance at school
« Reply #13 on: November 15, 2010, 12:26:19 AM »

Tell him to tell the teacher to "fuck off". If he is in public school this will be far more receptive than religious reasons. Government school teachers are accustomed to being told to fuck off. It is what they are paid for. Hearing about a person's religious views is foriegn. So, a simple "fuck off" should suffice.
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Joseffritzl

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Re: My son didnt say the Pledge of Allegiance at school
« Reply #14 on: November 15, 2010, 06:36:46 AM »

wow these teachers have it fucking easy. in inner city detroit, my friend who was a teacher there, almost got killed, and nothing was done about it
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