More Heeby-Jeeby Jew Talk-----I'll add to the fray-----the arrogance of the jew

[avshae]

1) 1947-1949, Israel's Independence war. 0.6M Jews against 100M Arabs. Israel a fledgling, just starting to organize, with no equipment except for surplus WWII junk.

the military equipment was surplus.
not ''junk''
without it, the jews would have been throwing fucking rocks..
you simply can't acknowledge the fact that israel has used the u.s. & britain as a crutch, since it's inception.
without these allies, you'd be a grease spot on the pages of history.

Look, if you refuse to acknowledge the plain and simple fact that Israel received very little support from the US until after 1967, I'm not going to continue arguing with you. Israel obtained surplus equipment, in this or that state of junk-edness, from all over the world, anywhere it could be found. The fledgling Israeli air-force flew American junk, British junk, German junk, anything that could fly. But these were not handed to Israel on a silver platter, they were smuggled in and/or obtained via various backroom deals. In some cases they were smuggled in part by part and assembled in Israel. Israel's main weapons supplier was Czechoslovakia. The US, along with most major powers, banned sale of weapons in the region at that time (a decision which naturally hurt Israel much more than it hurt the Arabs).

There are several famous stories about how airplanes were smuggled out of the US to evade the embargo:

http://israelvets.com/pictorialhist_acquiring_arms.html

The Gator and the B-17

An incident that received front-page treatment for a number of days in 1948 involved a University of Florida graduate named Irvin (Swifty) Schindler, from Miami. Schindler, who had learned to fly while a student at the University of Florida in Gainesville in the late 1930s and flew four-motored aircraft during World War II, attempted to smuggle a surplus B-17 to Israel.

He landed at a military airfield in Canada because of bad weather, and is shown here being arrested by Royal Canadian Mounted Police. Even so, he eluded his captors and flew his plane as far as the Azores, where he was again arrested, this time by Portuguese authorities. He was returned to the U.S. for trial and given a suspended sentence for violating the U.S. Neutrality Act. Israel’s only heavy bombers were three B-17s flown illegally out of a Miami airport in June 1948. Piloted by American, World War II veterans, they played a significant role in defeating Israel’s enemies, with each plane conducting about 50 bombing missions in the six-month period between July 1948 and January 1949.

[Riddler]

...sooooo,
do we take ashvae's account of this attack, at face value?....
or do we believe Lt. Ennes' verbal , EYEWITNESS retelling of the events?
i'm going with the latter.

[davann]

No man - Israel relied almost solely on non-US military equipment until the 70's: aircraft, armored vehicles, and all other equipment.

Wrong. Some believe that the 6 day war was just a test of American (used by Israel) anti aircraft guns versus Russian (used by Eygpt) aircraft. Turned out to be a bad test as Israel kicked the shit out of the Eygptian airforce right off the bat. My point is it is a fact that Israel was using American made anti aircraft at the very least. Who knows what other American equipment were part of the Israeli arsenal.

Not aware of any specific details regarding anti-aircraft weapons used by Israel in '67. Are you referring to aircraft guns or surface-to-air? Anyway since about half the Egyptian air force was destroyed on the ground, I don't see how this or that specific anti-aircraft weapon had anything to do with it. There were several key factors that made for Israel's victory, and this wasn't one of them.

Yeah, they would have been surface to air. I'm a big WWII military equipment buff and tend to refer to military stuff by the older tech names. My bad.

Were there not Israeli pilots that took part that later confirmed this was a black ops event planned by both sides? That was my understanding of it. I seem to remember one escaping/defecting from Israel and telling the story. If I remember right, he was a highly decorated pilot and had some believability cred.

It really is not that hard to believe govs would do this sort of thing. Just look at the Gulf of Tonkin. McNamara's fingers are all over both events. This seems to be something those in power would have no problems doing, both in the evil U.S. gov and the evil Israeli gov. Whoops, I forgot both are controlled by the very same group of vile people.