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Proletarian

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Re: modified version of Labor Theory of Value...
« Reply #30 on: February 21, 2006, 11:12:13 PM »

Quote
What is "perfect competition?"

an infinite high quality supply of goods to choose from inwhich all the information about the good is known for an infinite number of buyers...

Good luck with that. I'll stick with reality.
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eukreign

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Re: modified version of Labor Theory of Value...
« Reply #31 on: February 21, 2006, 11:34:05 PM »

Quote
What is "perfect competition?"

an infinite high quality supply of goods to choose from inwhich all the information about the good is known for an infinite number of buyers...

In that scenario government would work too because an infinite number of people could monitor the infinite number of actions made by officials and politicians and make sure nobody does anything bad.
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BenTucker

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Re: modified version of Labor Theory of Value...
« Reply #32 on: February 21, 2006, 11:36:01 PM »

Quote
What is "perfect competition?"

an infinite high quality supply of goods to choose from inwhich all the information about the good is known for an infinite number of buyers...

Good luck with that. I'll stick with reality.

theoretically the costs would equal the value...
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Proletarian

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Re: modified version of Labor Theory of Value...
« Reply #33 on: February 21, 2006, 11:41:38 PM »

Quote
What is "perfect competition?"

an infinite high quality supply of goods to choose from inwhich all the information about the good is known for an infinite number of buyers...

Good luck with that. I'll stick with reality.

theoretically the costs would equal the value...

Theoretically, my foot can fit up your ass if I shove it hard enough.
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"From each according to his ability, to each according to his need."

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eukreign

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Re: modified version of Labor Theory of Value...
« Reply #34 on: February 21, 2006, 11:42:02 PM »

Quote
What is "perfect competition?"

an infinite high quality supply of goods to choose from inwhich all the information about the good is known for an infinite number of buyers...

Good luck with that. I'll stick with reality.

theoretically the costs would equal the value...

Quality of the good and the information about the good are not the only factors that influence the price.
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BenTucker

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Re: modified version of Labor Theory of Value...
« Reply #35 on: February 22, 2006, 07:35:33 AM »

Quote
Quality of the good and the information about the good are not the only factors that influence the price.

you mean like the economic rent that attaches when a media/sport star "endorses" the product?
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iWantToLiveFree

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Re: modified version of Labor Theory of Value...
« Reply #36 on: February 22, 2006, 10:41:23 AM »

Quote from: BenTucker
theoretically the costs would equal the value...
I think what you are saying is that when the desirability is high enough to cover the marginal costs (labor included) then the value (ie. price should really be the word used here instead of value) will equal the costs.
If price is what you have in mind, then it could be theoritically true to some extent, in a perfect competition setting.

Perfect competition is a flawed concept because it assumes that there is both an almost "unlimited" amount of buyers (high demand) and an almost "unlimited" amount of suppliers (high offer). It assumes that there always is a high demand regardless of the actual desirability and usefulness of different goods to different people at different times and also assumes that there always is a high offer regardless of the costs, required knowledge, environmental factors etc..
Its logical application leads to every man being capable of self sufficiance (which is what man evolved from) and therefore not needing to trade with one another. Perfect competition is a practical impossibility and its approximation is certainly not desirable anyway as evidenced by the division of labor and economies of scale.

And costs do not set the value of a given object (as was demonstrated several times in this thread)... they will influence its price to some extent. And if you still do not agree, then consider the following:

-What is the value of jewelry to someone who picked some on the ground but can't have access to food? It is immensely less than that of food.
-What is the value of food to someone who owns the last cow on earth and loves jewelry? It is somewhat less than that of jewelry.

Labor is out of the equation here.
If you were to factor the costs (including labor) into the equation, you would come to the conclusion that they would influence the price and not the desirability (ie. value) that the buyer places on the goods.
The price is influenced, among other things, by the value of the object for the buyer, and the costs associated with producing this object for the seller.

(btw, In a perfect competition perspective, both must be able to produce and buy jewels and food. How else would you have a high demand and a high supply?)

I am pleased, however, that whatever our respective theories are, no one is calling for legislation yet.
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BenTucker

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Re: modified version of Labor Theory of Value...
« Reply #37 on: February 22, 2006, 12:40:09 PM »

Quote
If price is what you have in mind, then it could be theoritically true to some extent, in a perfect competition setting.

thank you for agreeing...

Quote
no one is calling for legislation yet.

I am simply trying to make the point that it is legislation (government granted privilege) that is enacted for the benefit of business (cartelization) to move away from perfect competition inorder to protect profits (price minus costs)...

what would be the effect on economies of scale to remove the government granted privilege of limited liability protection which was enacted inorder to encourage the pooling of capital to scale operations?

what if all privileges were removed that are subtly built into our property laws posing as a nuetral legal framework?

I am going to posit just as Ralph Borsodi did that actually the family homestead is the most efficient goods producing system...

and once profits and capital formation are squeezed out via revoking government granted privilege & the resulting intense competitive pressures that the logical system that people would gravitate towards is mutualism - voluntary cooperative trade based on mutual benefit (reciprocity).
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eukreign

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Re: modified version of Labor Theory of Value...
« Reply #38 on: February 22, 2006, 03:35:51 PM »

Quote
Quality of the good and the information about the good are not the only factors that influence the price.

you mean like the economic rent that attaches when a media/sport star "endorses" the product?

- distance to the store where the product is sold, shipping cost
- condition of the product (new/used, bad condition/good condition)
- method of manufacture of the product (organic/non-organic, custom made/mass produced)
- presentation of the product (packaging, how it is displayed at the store, your ability to test the product at the store or see the product in action)
- warranty you get with the product
- reputation of the store
- coupons, sale events, liquidation sale
- auction (depends on who is present at the auction on the day you are bidding on the product)
- need for the product
- scarcity of the product (gold is finite and that affects its price)
- buying items individually vs. buying them in bulk
- etc.

I can go on and on.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2006, 03:38:05 PM by eukreign »
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iWantToLiveFree

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Re: modified version of Labor Theory of Value...
« Reply #39 on: February 22, 2006, 09:20:36 PM »

Quote from: BenTucker
I am simply trying to make the point that it is legislation (government granted privilege) that is enacted for the benefit of business (cartelization) to move away from perfect competition inorder to protect profits (price minus costs)...
Your point is mostly valid indeed. I would only argue that perfect competition is both unattainable and undesirable anyway. Legislation restricting business is not passed to protect profits but to protect well established corporations (and thus their profits). It is not passed to move away from perfect competition but to further restrict natural competition (which is very different from one place/time/sector to another and could/should never be perfect).
Take my profits away and you take my incentive away...

Quote from: BenTucker
what would be the effect on economies of scale to remove the government granted privilege of limited liability protection which was enacted inorder to encourage the pooling of capital to scale operations?
Remove the LLC status and free market alternatives might very well emulate it. In fact, I would argue this is mostly the case already. Most contracts do have limitations of liability clauses.
The major difference would be that individuals would not be shielded from responsibility unless by contact (this does not, obviously, include third parties, as with today's LLCs).
But then again, you are free to only deal with mom 'n pop shops and buy a home made car to anyone not requiring you to sign such a contract.

Quote from: BenTucker
what if all privileges were removed that are subtly built into our property laws posing as a nuetral legal framework?
Not sure what you are referring to...

Quote from: BenTucker
I am going to posit just as Ralph Borsodi did that actually the family homestead is the most efficient goods producing system...
I would argue that it is not. But we don't need to convince each other on that one either...

Quote from: BenTucker
and once profits and capital formation are squeezed out via revoking government granted privilege & the resulting intense competitive pressures that the logical system that people would gravitate towards is mutualism - voluntary cooperative trade based on mutual benefit (reciprocity).
Although I do not expect the same results, I would help you remove all government granted privileges and regulations because it is the only moral thing to do. I do not care about utilitarian arguments, so I wouldn't want to go back even if profits and capital formation went away as a result (but it will not).
Trade is voluntary (at least it is in free societies) and necessarily based on mutual benefit, actual or perceived.
Cooperative is a word you might want to explain in your definition. If what you mean is common ownership or redistribution... then you can have your little cooperative business but I want no part in it.

Quote from: eukreign
I can go on and on.
Have you ever noticed how it is always those who know least about running one particular business that always seem to know best how to run it? (I'm not targeting anyone btw)
In a free society, this is either amusing or annoying... in today's society, this is very dangerous because these people often have the biggest political clout.

In the end, what's important is that I think we would all go in the same direction.. we would all abolish government interference in the operation of the free market. Some would do this on practical grounds, others on philosophical grounds and others on both. Some would like to see unbridled capital flourish and expand.. other would like to see profits totally go away.
But none of us are violent individuals and we all understand that legislation is violence enacted by cowards using their pens to control the guns of mindless automatons.
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Evil Muppet

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Re: modified version of Labor Theory of Value...
« Reply #40 on: February 23, 2006, 12:17:11 AM »



I'll be doing some landscaping before I put my house on the market. If I dig the holes with my hands instead of using my tiller & shovel, to get the labor added value, will I lose $$ if I wear gloves? If so, can I offset that by planting marigolds?

Ceteras Parabus.  All things being equal.  That is a hole which is completely identical to another hole in every regard except for the manner in which it was produced. 

A huge difference between using tools and not using tools to dig a hole.  You can dig a hell of a lot of with tools.  Thus production increases and the overall amount of wealth produced greatly increased. 
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Now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb.
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