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Evil Muppet

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Re: modified version of Labor Theory of Value...
« Reply #15 on: February 20, 2006, 10:46:08 PM »

But Labour has no effect on value.  Labor is one of the factors that determines costs, not value.  You can make a table by hand or with a table saw.  All things being equal is the table worth more simply because you made it by hand instead of using a table saw?  No.  All things being equal the only difference is the costs of producing something, not its actual value.  

The logical extention of the Labour theory of value holds that anything that increases the labor used to produce an item increases, so does its value.  You can make more valuable holes if you dig it with a shovel instead of a back hoe and you can make a more valuable hole if you make it with a spoon instead of a shovel and more value yet if you use only your bare hands.  

Labor has absolutely NO impact on the value of an object.  Value is entirely subjective.  Why is gold valuable?  because people want it.  It isn't determined by how much effort went into producing it, that is COST.  It is how much people desire something along with how available it is.  Basically it is supply and demand and value is measured by something called price.  
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BenTucker

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Re: modified version of Labor Theory of Value...
« Reply #16 on: February 20, 2006, 10:57:26 PM »

but competition drives value to cost if supply is unconstrained and quality is similar...

thus the overwhelming desire to control supply via monoploy privilege...
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Laetitia

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Re: modified version of Labor Theory of Value...
« Reply #17 on: February 20, 2006, 11:22:52 PM »

but competition drives value to cost if supply is unconstrained and quality is similar...
thus the overwhelming desire to control supply via monoploy privilege...

No. Competition drives the supplier to find a faster, cheaper easier way to produce the highest quality product at the price demanded.

Any monopolies that occur (without government involvement) are the result of Company B's inability to figure out how to do the same thing as Company A. Once Company A has that monopoly, they better keep on their toes, or Companies C & D are going to figure out the next big thing, and lure away A's customers. Competition is self correcting.
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Laetitia

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Re: modified version of Labor Theory of Value...
« Reply #18 on: February 20, 2006, 11:30:24 PM »

The logical extention of the Labour theory of value holds that anything that increases the labor used to produce an item increases, so does its value.  You can make more valuable holes if you dig it with a shovel instead of a back hoe and you can make a more valuable hole if you make it with a spoon instead of a shovel and more value yet if you use only your bare hands.  

Labor has absolutely NO impact on the value of an object.  Value is entirely subjective.  Why is gold valuable?  because people want it.  It isn't determined by how much effort went into producing it, that is COST.  It is how much people desire something along with how available it is.  Basically it is supply and demand and value is measured by something called price.  

I'll be doing some landscaping before I put my house on the market. If I dig the holes with my hands instead of using my tiller & shovel, to get the labor added value, will I lose $$ if I wear gloves? If so, can I offset that by planting marigolds?
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Proletarian

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Re: modified version of Labor Theory of Value...
« Reply #19 on: February 21, 2006, 03:27:05 AM »

What if I don't like marigolds? Do I have to pay for the labor, anyways? :(
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Re: modified version of Labor Theory of Value...
« Reply #20 on: February 21, 2006, 02:15:59 PM »

What if I don't like marigolds? Do I have to pay for the labor, anyways? :(
According the the Labor Theory of Value, yes. But, just to be super cooperative, I'll gladly dig up and replant. It will take a long time, since I'll be doing the work by hand. I also plan to walk to and from the garden center. Should only take about 5 trips, uphill, both ways, through snow. That should add LOT$ of labor value.
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eukreign

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Re: modified version of Labor Theory of Value...
« Reply #21 on: February 21, 2006, 02:57:47 PM »

You can add even more value if you carry one flower at a time. Next thing you know, your house will be worth MILLION$!!
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BenTucker

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Re: modified version of Labor Theory of Value...
« Reply #22 on: February 21, 2006, 03:20:55 PM »

you're missing the point...

value and costs will become the same under perfect competition.

only government granted privilege keeps the notion of profits (a form of economic rent) viable...
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Re: modified version of Labor Theory of Value...
« Reply #23 on: February 21, 2006, 03:23:18 PM »

you're missing the point...

value and costs will become the same under perfect competition.

only government granted privilege keeps the notion of profits (a form of economic rent) viable...

You're missing the point. Value and costs can never become the same, because we live in a world of uncertainty.
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BenTucker

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Re: modified version of Labor Theory of Value...
« Reply #24 on: February 21, 2006, 03:35:06 PM »

you're missing the point...

value and costs will become the same under perfect competition.

only government granted privilege keeps the notion of profits (a form of economic rent) viable...

You're missing the point. Value and costs can never become the same, because we live in a world of uncertainty.

notice I said "perfect" competition?

and like anarchy which can never be fully attained - neither can perfect competition...

but we should do everything in our power to allow them to move towards becoming the same by withdrawing all governmemt granted privileges which shift costs and let some accrue benefits at the expense of those being excluded...

because during that process of moving towards perfect competition people will eventually come to the realization - voluntarily - that it is better to cooperatively share in mutual benefit (reciprocity) than to attempt to continue to compete at the expense of others w/o coercion masked as privilege.
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keithwiggans

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Re: modified version of Labor Theory of Value...
« Reply #25 on: February 21, 2006, 05:46:36 PM »

I am curious to know where you learned the Economic idea of perfect competition. I hope you are not confused by the term perfect as if that model were something that society would like to attain. Perfect competition is simply a model by which Economists may draw conclusions based on a set of assumptions assumptions. It's a thought experiment where there are an unlimited number of suppliers and an unlimited number of buyers. The closest thing that resembles that kind of market might be wheat or corn. It certainly would not be a goal for the energy market or the market for automobiles. Due to economies of scale and private knowledge, perfect competition is neither attainable nor desireable in the real world.

I admire your ability to think abstractly and come up with such an interesting idea, but think about it for a few days and read up a little more on the idea of perfect competition before you try to resurrect the labor theory again.
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BenTucker

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Re: modified version of Labor Theory of Value...
« Reply #26 on: February 21, 2006, 06:35:02 PM »

Quote
Due to economies of scale and private knowledge, perfect competition is neither attainable nor desireable in the real world

so-called benefits due to economies of scale and private knowledge are typically enforced via goverment granted privilege...

Quote
before you try to resurrect the labor theory again

it is a "modified version" of the labor theory not "the" labor theory...
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Proletarian

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Re: modified version of Labor Theory of Value...
« Reply #27 on: February 21, 2006, 10:58:25 PM »

You need to define your terms. What is "perfect competition?" What is "imperfect competition?" Is there a "neutral competition?" What is "competition?" What is "perfect?"

Dictionary.com is a good start, so here we go:

COMPETITION
   1. The act of competing, as for profit or a prize; rivalry.
   2. A test of skill or ability; a contest: a skating competition.
   3. Rivalry between two or more businesses striving for the same customer or market.
   4. A competitor: The competition has cornered the market.
   5. Ecology. The simultaneous demand by two or more organisms for limited environmental resources, such as nutrients, living space, or light.

PERFECT
   1. Lacking nothing essential to the whole; complete of its nature or kind.
   2. Being without defect or blemish: a perfect specimen.
   3. Thoroughly skilled or talented in a certain field or area; proficient.
   4. Completely suited for a particular purpose or situation: She was the perfect actress for the part.
   5.
         a. Completely corresponding to a description, standard, or type: a perfect circle; a perfect gentleman.
         b. Accurately reproducing an original: a perfect copy of the painting.
   6. Complete; thorough; utter: a perfect fool.
   7. Pure; undiluted; unmixed: perfect red.
   8. Excellent and delightful in all respects: a perfect day.
   9. Botany. Having both stamens and pistils in the same flower; monoclinous.
  10. Grammar. Of, relating to, or constituting a verb form expressing action completed prior to a fixed point of reference in time.
  11. Music. Designating the three basic intervals of the octave, fourth, and fifth.


How are these two words compatible? One is an act of testing skill, an act of improvement; the other is indifference and irrelevence.

Perfect competition? An unmixed rivalry? An excellent contest? Perfectly suited for competing?
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eukreign

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Re: modified version of Labor Theory of Value...
« Reply #28 on: February 21, 2006, 11:03:42 PM »

Perfect competition is when it doesn't rain during a marathon.
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BenTucker

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Re: modified version of Labor Theory of Value...
« Reply #29 on: February 21, 2006, 11:06:46 PM »

Quote
What is "perfect competition?"

an infinite high quality supply of goods to choose from inwhich all the information about the good is known for an infinite number of buyers...
« Last Edit: February 21, 2006, 11:09:38 PM by BenTucker »
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